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  #41  
Old 03-02-2009, 03:11 PM
kevinvw kevinvw is offline
 
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Originally Posted by MC1171611 View Post
There was no death before Adam: Kent Hovind goes into excruciating detail of how Noah's flood did indeed produce the fossil record we see today, as well as the so-called "Geologic Ages" that exist nowhere outside of humanistic textbooks.

kevinw: I showed that the angels ("sons of God") were created before the earth, since they "shouted for joy" when God laid the foundations of it. You reference this verse:

Ex. 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

But notice that the "heaven" is singular. It's imperative to notice not only tenses but quantitative adjectives in the Bible as well. The heaven that Moses is referring to is (since the rest of the verse is dealing with the earth) our atmosphere, so he's talking about all the flying creatures and the rest of the critters that inhabit or inhabited our earth, from Archeopteryx to the Bracheosaurus to the flying squirrel, whale and human beings.

Again, if the Gap were reconciled with the Bible, which I (after several years of study) firmly believe it to be, then why would anyone who claims to believe the Bible reject it?
And the host of the heavens and the earth in Gen 2:1 is just stars right? If anyone who claims to be a bible believer finds something they don't find scriptural then they must reject it.
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  #42  
Old 03-02-2009, 07:10 PM
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I have been studying the scriptures in this area for only a few years. I agree in part to some of Geologist's Gap reasoning. I am still not convinced of his other views. he does however have a fairly detailed view and it is worth reading.

Our view would be added to the five already in existence making it six. So maybe there is one more that is exact and completely perfect. God's View which is not revealed.
  #43  
Old 03-02-2009, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Tandi View Post
Can you elaborate? I wondered how you would differentiate between fossils if there were two floods. Why do you say Noah's flood would not have left a single fossil?
Tandi
I've outlined this in detail on my website: http://www.kjvbible.org/sediment.html
  #44  
Old 03-02-2009, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by kevinvw View Post
And the host of the heavens and the earth in Gen 2:1 is just stars right? If anyone who claims to be a bible believer finds something they don't find scriptural then they must reject it.
The whole ball of wax WAS completed in Genesis 1: heavenS, earth, Sons of God, etc. The Gap falls within Genesis 1, if you'll remember. Genesis 2:1 is simply a recap of what happened in Genesis 1, so there's no problem except the one you created in your mind by refusing to give other viewpoints a serious look.

See, people go to such great lengths to prove their own doctrine or beliefs without giving opposing viewpoints an unbiased look. It's sad, really.
  #45  
Old 03-02-2009, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by kevinvw View Post
Not in excruciating detail, but according to Gen 2:1 and Exo 20:11 they were all created during the six day period. Job 38:4-7 says these angelic beings were here at the creation of the earth, so logic would tell us that they were created on the first day just before God created the earth.
No, your assumption tells you that, not logic. Within your paradigm of belief you have God inhabiting eternity past by himself and without anything material existing. Then one day God decides to create a cheering section (Sons of God), then He decides He needs cheerleaders (Cherubim, etc), then immediately creates a whole physical universe of dark inanimate matter and water, spends the next 4 days getting the form and shape just right, then two more days populating it with critters, including "Man" who was made a "little lower" (see Psalm 8:5, Heb 2:7, & 2,9) than the Sons of God He just created six days earlier. He then throws in Lucifer and legions of Devils, who immediately turn evil and decide to trick and deceive the Man. And God said THIS was good? Nonsense!

But that is exactly what you are advocating, if you look at your "logic."

The Bible says in Matthew 25:41 "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:"

Hell fire was originally made for the Devil and his Angels, NOT man. And the Earth was originally a place made for the habitation of the Angels. That world ended. Not immediately (when Lucifer rebelled and a third of the angels with him), but over the course of millions of years of death, violence, geologic upheaval, asteroid impacts, disease and starvation, the evidence of which history is preserved for us, in stone, by nothing less than God's will.

God created the present world for Man (who He made a little lower than those Angels).

Last edited by geologist; 03-02-2009 at 09:52 PM.
  #46  
Old 03-02-2009, 10:35 PM
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Kevin,

the word host in the English has some interesting connotations. Its literally means a great innumerable amount. The physical stars in our firmament are innumerable.

Lucifer/Satan is a Cherub also known as a Cherubim. interesting also is the stones he is comprised of are the same as the construction materials of the New Jerusalem.

to Get crystals and pearls large enough to build a city that size would take a host of time if limited to our current Time Quantum of 24/7. the earth has been brought from Eternity Gen 1:1 to a 24/7 Time Quantum (measurement) by Gen 1:3-5.

as soon as the light was brought in (God doesn't need light the darkness and the light are the same to him) he calls forth for light to be allowed to illuminate the darkness. Apparently this darkness was not something limited to the earths surface but a vast area around it. when it shined it created two opposing sides of the earth one in darkness and the other in light establishing our current time measurement 24/7. Everything that is created there after is affected by this time quantum (TQ) the evening and the morning are one day.

we, our atomic structure by which we are created, our sciences, our senses are all governed by this limited 24/7 365 days year TQ. Even our types of dating processes are all geared around what was established on the first day. before the first day it is obvious by Gen 1:1 there was no 24/7 TQ.

Some may feel this is a waste of time to study about time and its creation but it is very important for it is the first thing God created. not light as many supposed but time. that light he called forth was not to be part of the 24/7 TQ that is why later the Sun Moon and Stars are created to carry on the TQ to this date. they were created not just to give light.

anyway go easy, this issue is not anything to break freindships and fellowship over. It is just some fun Bible tossing.

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Originally Posted by geologist View Post
N And the Earth was originally a place made for the habitation of the Angels.
Geologist,

If the earth was originally created for Angels why then is it not filled with them to complete the original purpose in Rev 22?

God's plans cannot be thwarted by Lucifer and his angels. But the Bible records no such purpose that the earth was created for angels. However if we connect the dots. the Earth was created, there was a throne that stumbled Lucifer (one he participated in building), then the earth has a 24/7 TQ created on it and all that GOD created on it, giving rise to man to serve in a temple to officiate the duties and offices with a mercy seat (throne), then in the End Rev 22 we see the Throne established for God's Son (the Light in Gen 1:2) for all eternity.

the earth was originally created as a place for the Son of God's throne, and Cherubs and Angels were to participate in its building as they are today (the New Jerusalem), and God original will for the Earth will be established in Rev 22 forever.

Last edited by chette777; 03-02-2009 at 10:46 PM.
  #47  
Old 03-03-2009, 12:00 PM
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Lucifer was a king, as he definitely had a throne ("...I will exalt my throne above the stars of God..." Is. 14:13) and he even now is called the "god of this world" and has dominion over all the earth (Matt. 4:8-9).

I've already been over the "Eden" issue: the garden that God created in Genesis chapter is emphatically NOT called "Eden": the garden was planted Eastward IN Eden. Eden in Genesis 2 is a GEOGRAPHICAL REGION, not a garden. Therefore, correlated with Ezekiel 28, specifically verses 12-15, we see that Lucifer had inhabited a GARDEN called "Eden." This "Eden" is NOT in any way, shape or form the same Eden found in Genesis 2, as the Ezekiel account calls the Garden "Eden" and the Genesis account does not name the garden at all. Don't believe me? Look it up.

Geologist, I'm sure you've done plenty of research and spent lots of time studying things, but to claim that the "geologic ages" that are supposedly represented in the rock strata are a result of pre-Adamic death and disease is groundless, both Biblically and scientifically. The geographic strata that we observe in nature could not, in any way, have been formed by natural processes, no matter how much time you throw at it. Again, filling in the blanks with evolution-type ages or numbers of years does nothing but attack the foundation of the Bible.

------------------------------------

I'm both a Young Earth Creationist and a Gap "Theorist." I believe that this creation was designed by God around 6,000 years ago and can be easily seen in the fossil record and geologic strata, and no physical creature, flora or fauna, existed before Genesis 1:3 when God began to create, in 6 literal 24-hour days, a wonderfully habitable earth that is unlike anything that exists today.

I believe that the Gap that occurred between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 was potentially (my pet theory) around 1,007 years long. The way I currently lean on the issue is this, though the majority of these ideas are extrapolation instead of actual Biblical statement: God created the heaven and the earth in His own four-dimensional existence (Eph. 3:18) and populated it with the "sons of God," ruled over by Lucifer, the fifth and covering cherub. I tend to believe that this time frame was about 1,000 years of perfect praise, worship and adoration of God Almighty and unbroken peace and perfection on Earth, which was called Eden, a beautiful, incredible Garden, built as a testimony to God's awesome power and creativity.

At some point, Lucifer's heart was lifted up because of his beauty and his wisdom, and he sought to exalt himself above God. When this pride entered his being, he was cast out along with a third of angels that followed him. During this time, the earth was completely destroyed, cast down into the "Deep," and removed from God's flawless 4D existence into the present 3D realm.

With the recreation of the earth, God created a firmament in the "midst of the waters," or in essence pulled the "Deep" apart with the earth in the middle of the newly-created firmament or "Space": when water is forced apart in said manner, it creates a vacuum. The "top" part of the separated water is called the "sea" or "crystal sea," while the "bottom" section is called "the Deep" or "the great deep."

God then ensued His recreation of the earth and put a man on it, to whom He gave dominion (made a king!) over the earth.

I have verses for 90% of what I just typed (the 1,000 year and 7 year time frames are my own concepts, I believe) and I've seen all opposition easily reconciled with some simple Bible study. Obviously this isn't a serious doctrine like salvation or the virgin birth, but I do think it's a good idea to understand where this mudball came from and what God's intentions were for it, especially since it deals with the Kingdoms of Heaven and of God.

Gotta' shower and nap now...I'm tired and barely coherent.
  #48  
Old 03-03-2009, 08:00 PM
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MC11,

you and I have similar views. I only disagree with Lucifer having a throne ruling over the angels on earth. I see the purpose of the earth differently and have biblical proof the purpose for the earth was a place to put the Lambs throne.

Other than that we have much of the same view. So my view if added to yours which came first and the five Geologist lists makes there Seven views.

Eden, the Garden of God mentioned in just 4times in 3 verse, may have been the Earth itself in pre 6 day creation.

Ephesians 3:18 ... breadth, and length, and depth, and height; could not exist without darkness. because only when light and dark are place in their opposing positions can you physically calculate them. Hence the 24/7 time measurement established by God for Physical beings. Now God is not limited his measurement does not need light or darkness for they are the same to him.

the Genesis 6 day creation is very interesting as we see God complete in his Godhead, the Holy Ghost as the Spirit moving over the waters and the face of the deep (not the earth but what is now contained in our firmament), we see the creator (the Son)who it is said it is Christ for without him nothing was made, and we see God (the Father) for God is light that was called forth to shed light into the darkened Deep. hence lets make man in our own likeness and image all three persons were active here in creation.

As far as how long before Gen 1:1had elapsed between Lucifer's fall, and the destruction of the earth. Now if the Garden of God was over the whole face of the earth, it had great trees and vegetation over the whole face of the earth for there were no seas upon the earth just as there will be none in the future. So when God destroyed the earth that Lucifer tried to usurp and make more higher than God. the water he allowed to cover the earth could have buried the plants alive. and given that oil was made from the flood of Noah surely there would be deeper and bigger oil deposits that came from that vegetation. I am not sure there was any animal life.

interesting though is that they have found gold and brass undatable artifacts intact in coal. If Geologist is correct and Noah's flood evidence was washed away after only a few thousand years. then where did these artifacts of Gold and brace found in Coal come from. Certainly if Angels made them they would have been larger in size as they are larger in size. I think these coal mines in the Appalachian mountains where these artifacts were found were produced during the flood burying the man made artifacts with the bodies of men, animals and plant life that hardened to coal.

Pitch used for Noah's ark could have been Bitumen or it could have been produced from boiling certain trees. it would have been known at that time for smaller boats to use on rivers to fish. I think Ruckman put the then Population rate from Adam to Noah at about close to 680 million.

Last edited by chette777; 03-03-2009 at 08:11 PM.
  #49  
Old 03-03-2009, 08:31 PM
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Well when you consider that there was at least 1650 years between the expulsion from the garden and the Flood, there is more than ample time for people of their longevity and advanced knowledge to invent rocketry and nuclear weaponry, let alone gold casting and the other artifacts found in the seams of coal.

A pre-flood environment would have held ample carbon-based critters and plants to account for all the fossil fuel deposits that exist on earth today. There is no need to inject any death, decay or disease before Genesis 3 in order to reconcile the natural record with the Bible (the Bible doesn't need to be reconciled with anything).
  #50  
Old 03-03-2009, 09:31 PM
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I agree. I think those artifacts are remnant of Noah's Flood. and when you see how deep those coal mines go it is mind boggling.
 

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