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Old 06-26-2009, 06:28 AM
whirlwind
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Originally Posted by chette777 View Post
Whirly's quote: I believe that as the commandment is to "honor thy father and thy mother," this translation is in error. It is better phrased in...

are you denying the inerrancy or the KJV Bible?

You, like the deceived Eve have just changed the Word of God

If so why are you on this site. We all believe the KJV Bible has no errors

If you believe our Father wants us to HATE our mother and father then okay....but I would ask you to reconsider....

Proverbs 23:22 Hearken unto thy father that begat thee, And despise not thy mother when she is old.

Matthew 15:4 For God commanded, saying, 'Honour thy father and mother:' and, 'He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.'
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  #12  
Old 06-26-2009, 07:56 AM
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Just an FYI, Bible correcting is not permitted and will result in a ban. It's one thing to ask a question about a translation in the Bible versions section of the forum, but calling the text of Scripture "in error" in a Bible study thread is not permitted.
  #13  
Old 06-26-2009, 08:30 AM
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Tony is on to the correct answer of the OP's question. The division made between the teachings of Paul and Christ is crucial.

The command to hate as given by Christ was to those who were to take up their crosses and follow him - no matter what.

Luke 14:26-27
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

Read the verses carefully, there's alot of conditions given. The context is absolutely who will be Christ's disciples and who will not. It's not a statement of "I need disciples", but rather, "the road ahead is going to get rough, any takers?"

Later in Luke he gives the same men another exhortation. It is important to notice the strong tribulation context in the chapter (before and after the verses quoted below). It shows you Christ is "fitting" his men for the worst, and giving them doctrine for their salvation as well.

Luke 21:16-19
And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. But there shall not an hair of your head perish. In your patience possess ye your souls.

Notice the word "patience" directed to the disciples possessing their souls. If you want to do some studying on this, run the word in the latter books of the NT. Patience is a "must have" during the tribulation.

Back to the topic, the command in Luke 14 is a prerequisite to following Christ to the death. Luke 21 compliments the earlier command with the charge of "you will be put to death" with consent of those very family members, friends, etc.

Someone said the command to hate is comparative. This would line up with an OT passage in Gen. 29:30-31:

And he went in also unto Rachel, and he loved also Rachel more than Leah, and served with him yet seven other years. And when the LORD saw that Leah was hated, he opened her womb: but Rachel was barren.

So the "hate" is actually in comparison to the larger amount of love given to another.

I would say this is a good answer to the OP, yet I'm certain Christ had something else in mind (future) when he called his disciples with such conditions.

Finally, you and I are NOT Christ's disciples preparing to endure through a furious tribulation. We are not hated of all men for his name's sake etc. and the direct command does not apply to us.
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Old 06-26-2009, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by pbiwolski View Post
Tony is on to the correct answer of the OP's question. The division made between the teachings of Paul and Christ is crucial.

The command to hate as given by Christ was to those who were to take up their crosses and follow him - no matter what.

Luke 14:26-27
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

Read the verses carefully, there's alot of conditions given. The context is absolutely who will be Christ's disciples and who will not. It's not a statement of "I need disciples", but rather, "the road ahead is going to get rough, any takers?"

Later in Luke he gives the same men another exhortation. It is important to notice the strong tribulation context in the chapter (before and after the verses quoted below). It shows you Christ is "fitting" his men for the worst, and giving them doctrine for their salvation as well.

Luke 21:16-19
And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. But there shall not an hair of your head perish. In your patience possess ye your souls.

Notice the word "patience" directed to the disciples possessing their souls. If you want to do some studying on this, run the word in the latter books of the NT. Patience is a "must have" during the tribulation.

Back to the topic, the command in Luke 14 is a prerequisite to following Christ to the death. Luke 21 compliments the earlier command with the charge of "you will be put to death" with consent of those very family members, friends, etc.

Someone said the command to hate is comparative. This would line up with an OT passage in Gen. 29:30-31:

And he went in also unto Rachel, and he loved also Rachel more than Leah, and served with him yet seven other years. And when the LORD saw that Leah was hated, he opened her womb: but Rachel was barren.

So the "hate" is actually in comparison to the larger amount of love given to another.

I would say this is a good answer to the OP, yet I'm certain Christ had something else in mind (future) when he called his disciples with such conditions.

Finally, you and I are NOT Christ's disciples preparing to endure through a furious tribulation. We are not hated of all men for his name's sake etc. and the direct command does not apply to us.
Luke 14:25-26 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them, If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Interesting…so is this command limited in application specifically to the “great multitude with him” whom had an opportunity to become His disciple and no application can be made to us today? The words “any man come to me” refer to whom? Do they only refer to any man who was in that specific multitude? Or are we [today] also a disciple of Christ through belief in Him, and therefore, should follow Him even if it calls for “hating” father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also? Is there an application to be made for us today? If so, what is it?

It is obvious from my posts on this Forum that I’m always driven by the practical application of Holy Scripture for believers today and if an application can be made without changing or corrupting God’s word I try to faithfully do that.

Personally, I believe my specific call at this point in my life is to edify the body of Christ by directing them to know, love, and follow Him. I never want to make an application that twists, bends, changes, or altars God’s word in order to do that. It’s encouraging to me that the Bible believing participants on this Forum have their own God given gift and style of teaching. I’ve benefited greatly.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
  #15  
Old 06-26-2009, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Forrest View Post
Luke 14:25-26 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them, If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Interesting…so is this command limited in application specifically to the “great multitude with him” whom had an opportunity to become His disciple and no application can be made to us today? The words “any man come to me” refer to whom? Do they only refer to any man who was in that specific multitude? Or are we [today] also a disciple of Christ through belief in Him, and therefore, should follow Him even if it calls for “hating” father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also? Is there an application to be made for us today? If so, what is it?

It is obvious from my posts on this Forum that I’m always driven by the practical application of Holy Scripture for believers today and if an application can be made without changing or corrupting God’s word I try to faithfully do that.

Personally, I believe my specific call at this point in my life is to edify the body of Christ by directing them to know, love, and follow Him. I never want to make an application that twists, bends, changes, or altars God’s word in order to do that. It’s encouraging to me that the Bible believing participants on this Forum have their own God given gift and style of teaching. I’ve benefited greatly.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Forrest, the gist of my response is that do we follow Christ's message strictly to Israel during His earthly ministry to them("times past") or do we follow His meesage to us today("but now") through Paul? The greatest confusion among Christianity today, let alone many of us on this forum, is trying to wad the two messages together as applicable for today. That's what every Catholic on the planet is taught to do and the confusion is why so few of them pay any attention to the Scriptures. With right division you get sound doctrine, without right division you get Roman Catholicism..

The doctrine of Christ dying, the just for the unjust, the innocent for the guilty is found right in Genesis 3, in the innocent animals dying to "cover" Adam and Eve. There is doctrine in Leviticus 5, but where do I take my sin offering if it's applicable for today? Same with Luke 14. I'm not commanded to "hate" anything today, nor am I to turn on my family as a Christian. They will turn on you. The context and application of Luke 14 is disparate people on the verge of desperate times. Yes, I am saved and love Christ, He lives in me, I am in no manner to abandon a sick wife and run off to the Congo to fulfill the "Great Commission".

Grace and peace brother

Tony
  #16  
Old 06-26-2009, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by tonybones2112 View Post
Forrest, the gist of my response is that do we follow Christ's message strictly to Israel during His earthly ministry to them("times past") or do we follow His meesage to us today("but now") through Paul? The greatest confusion among Christianity today, let alone many of us on this forum, is trying to wad the two messages together as applicable for today. That's what every Catholic on the planet is taught to do and the confusion is why so few of them pay any attention to the Scriptures. With right division you get sound doctrine, without right division you get Roman Catholicism..

The doctrine of Christ dying, the just for the unjust, the innocent for the guilty is found right in Genesis 3, in the innocent animals dying to "cover" Adam and Eve. There is doctrine in Leviticus 5, but where do I take my sin offering if it's applicable for today? Same with Luke 14. I'm not commanded to "hate" anything today, nor am I to turn on my family as a Christian. They will turn on you. The context and application of Luke 14 is disparate people on the verge of desperate times. Yes, I am saved and love Christ, He lives in me, I am in no manner to abandon a sick wife and run off to the Congo to fulfill the "Great Commission".

Grace and peace brother

Tony
Greetings brother Tony. No doubt and I'm with you on your above thoughts. I loathe harmonizing when we should divide.

Do you think Jesus was actually telling the multitude that the requirement to be His disciple was to HATE his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also? If not, what is He teaching them?
  #17  
Old 06-26-2009, 03:41 PM
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Thanks to all of you who positively responded to this thread. I am learning...thanks to Bro. Parrish, Bro. Forrest, Ma'am Greenbear, pbiwolski, to Sir Chette, Sir Brandon and to Bro. Tony. love and I'll be glad to share it with you all. God bless...

Thanks,

Grace, mercy and peace...

Bro. FredLLangit

Last edited by Fredoheaven; 06-26-2009 at 03:58 PM.
  #18  
Old 06-26-2009, 04:26 PM
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My pleasure Fred, may God grant us all His wisdom as we seek His truth on difficult passages.
  #19  
Old 06-26-2009, 05:03 PM
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Let's also remember that not all families and peer groups are supportive of Christianity. Many times young Christians will be openly attacked by family members and friends, who attempt to drag them back into the world and the patterns of flesh they came from. This can take many forms. For example, it could be an older brother, or perhaps a sister in law who is trying to force the new believer to smoke cigarettes and drink alchohol like the "old days." For a young woman, it could be an old boyfriend or lover who is trying to keep her out of church or Bible study for his own selfish reasons. It could be a family member who is wrapped up in the stench of Islam or maybe a cult like the Mormons or JW's, and hates the idea of their child taking a different path of doctrine.

But at that moment the disciple of Christ has to make a decision;
CHRIST OR OTHERS. This does not mean we are not to honor our parents, and it doesn't mean we are to seek trouble. But sooner or later we will have to make a decision to allow Christ to become the pinnacle in our life. At that moment your decision to stand for Christ can split your family wide open and CHALLENGE ANY RELATIONSHIP YOU HAVE ON EARTH. This can result in bad feelings, and I have seen men throwing furniture around, mothers screaming at sons, and sisters screaming about the new "Jesus freak." In many cases this trouble does not last, and the Christian is eventually accepted along with the new lifestyle adjustments, but it can get rough in the beginning. That's why Jesus said...

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law." - Matt. 10:34-35
Sir, thank you for this post, I soon realized that this is happening even in our local church. Many of our young people have been hindered by their parents or older brother or sister. They don't want them attend Bible Studies and exactly, new believers attending our church with "unwin" boyfriend were the ones stopping them to be invovled in our church ministry. Bro. please pray for the work here in the Philippines.

Here is a link for an interesting work here in the Philippines. The work is started by Pastor Ed Laurena, the brother of our sending pastor Ptr. Gil Laurena. Hope you will be blessed.

http://www.cbbcphilippines.org/
  #20  
Old 06-26-2009, 05:31 PM
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The division made between the teachings of Paul and Christ is crucial.
A General rule of thumb is if Christ teaching agrees with Paul's, the Apostle to the Gentile, the Apostle of the Gospel of Grace, then it is a teaching for the Body of Christ.
 

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