Doctrine Discussion about matters of the faith.

 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-09-2008, 11:55 PM
pbiwolski's Avatar
pbiwolski pbiwolski is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Penna.
Posts: 223
Default Repentance

I have recently been studying the doctrine of repentance. In my research I found various teachings and views on the subject, some drastically different. I then underwent an exhaustive study on the word repent (in any English form) in the A.V., and formed my own belief on the doctrine, not completely new, but in somewhat of a different light than most.

The motivation for the study was based on gospel tracts, yes, little gospel tracts that I had been handing out. I noticed one, then two, then over and over, these simple gospel messages were seemingly tainted with something that, although I've heard it preached all of my life, I did NOT believe to be true.

The standard tract would read:

You must...

A. Realize you are a sinner...(scripture w/ explanation, etc.)

B. Realize there is a penalty for your sin...

C. Realize Jesus paid the penalty...

D. Repent of your sins and receive Jesus as you Saviour...

That's been the standard for many tracts over the years, and it's been quite the standard in pulpits as well. However, I have concluded that it is not biblically accurate to suggest that an unsaved man must repent of his sins BEFORE he can receive Christ as Saviour. I believe that this constitutes a "work" performed by the unbeliever prior to becoming a believer.

I open my thoughts to critique, but before you do, I must warn you...

1. Defining the word biblically is crucial.

2. Applying the word is just as important. Be sure of the scripture that you use to develope your doctrine.

I have found that the word repentance has one biblical definition, yet many applications. (The same can be said of many doctrinal words, for example: salvation.) I have also found that the "proof texts" for the position held by so many are easily refuted by careful reading of the actual text.

I'll post more should your thoughts insite further explanation.
The King James Bible Page SwordSearcher Bible Software
  #2  
Old 04-10-2008, 12:16 AM
jerry
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

The definition of the word "repent" means "a change of mind" - and the Biblical usage shows that it is a change of mind resulting in a change of conduct. In the Bible, there is no such thing as repentance without a change in the conduct - whether it is referring to God or man repenting.

The Bible makes it pretty clear that mankind is to repent and turn to the Lord for salvation - there is no salvation without repenting.

Ezekiel 14:6 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations.

Ezekiel 18:30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

Matthew 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Matthew 11:20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:

Matthew 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

Matthew 21:32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Mark 2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Mark 6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.

Luke 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Luke 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Luke 11:32 The men of Nineve shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Luke 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Luke 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Luke 15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

Luke 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 2:37-38 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

Acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

2 Corinthians 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

2 Timothy 2:24-26 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Revelation 9:20-21 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Revelation 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

Revelation 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

There are also other passages that list specific sins that God expects mankind to repent of in order to be saved, in order to inherit the kingdom of God:

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Ephesians 5:5-6 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Galatians 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Timothy 1:8-11 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

Colossians 3:5-6 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
  #3  
Old 04-10-2008, 03:08 AM
Luke's Avatar
Luke Luke is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 594
Default

This is a topic dear to my heart, and I have spent many hours in anguish over whether or not I am saved.

Granted, I had reason to doubt my salvation. I was involved in some pretty awful habitual sin, but always felt guilty about it. I wasn't sure if I had ever repented, and so on, and so I began to read tracts again, continually "praying" a sinners prayer, crying out to out in honest sincerity, desiring for the guilt to leave, and the joy of God's salvation to be restored to me.

I am still quite shaken up. My habitual sin is defeated (I am by no means sinless).

I still doubt my salvation, and in many ways, it comes down to the sin I have committed as a professing Christian, and yet, there is nothing more that I can do to be saved.

This, I believe, is a crucial issue.

Are we saved by:

1) God's grace and mercy, by His coming to earth, living a perfect life, dying in shame on a cross for our sins (mine and yours personally), being buried, raised from the dead, and repenting from trusting in our dead works (Isaiah 64:6) and placing our trust in the Gospel.

OR

Are we saved by:

2) Repenting from our sins, making a commitment to be a disciple of Jesus Christ, and serve Him for the rest of our lives, and believing that He died, was buried and rose from the dead.

One of these is a false gospel that adds works to grace. In both cases, repentance should result in a changed life, but one of the changes is man made, in an effort to be saved, while the other is as a result of being saved. One puts the cart before the horse, while the other has the horse drag the cart.


As an aside: I am not a calvinist, so when I say "Free Grace", I probably don't mean the same thing some calvinists do. But I am not arminian either, and I don't believe one can lose their salvation.


One of these is the Gospel that Paul Washer, John MacArthur, Ray Comfort, A.W. Tozer, A.W. Pink and many others preach.

The Other is the Gospel that C.H. Spurgeon, D.L Moody, Jack Hyles, and many others preach.

Spurgeon, a Calvinist, called sinners to simply "LOOK AND LIVE", "RUN TO THE CITY OF REFUGE", and deal with the change of life AFTER. Moody did the same. Hyles did the same. Paul Washer, MacArthur and Comfort on the other hand, have a convincing message, that sounds good, addresses a very real problem in western christianity, but ultimately, corrupts the simplicity that is in Christ.

Washer, says, in his most famous sermon "Within a hundred years, a great majority of people in this building will possibly be in hell. And many who even profess Jesus Christ as Lord will spend an eternity in hell." There were 5000 teenagers in that hall. What does he tell them to do to make sure they don't go to hell?

What you need to know is that salvation is by faith and faith alone in Jesus Christ. And faith alone in Jesus Christ is preceded and followed by repentance . . . a turning away from sin, a hatred for the things that God hates and a love for the things that God loves, a growing in holiness and a desire not to be like Britney Spears, not to be like the world,

There are elements of truth to that, however, his terminology is confusing. We understand repentance as turning to God. He says repentance is turning from sin, and continuing to do so. That is sanctification. And according to Paul Washer, you must be sanctified before you can be saved.

Paul Washer stoops as low as rewriting the Bible with words that aren't even in his precious greek to prove His point.


You say, "Brother Paul, I got saved by praying and asking Jesus Christ into my heart." And I'm sure you did, but you weren't saved by a magic formula or some words you repeated after someone else. You were saved because you repented of your sins and you believed, and not only did you do that in the past, you continued to do it even until now, because when Jesus . . . a proper translation of that verse He gave is this: The Kingdom of God is come. The time is fulfilled. Now, spend the rest of your lives repenting of your sins and believing in Me.

Conversion is not like a flu shot. "Oh, I did that. I repented. I believed." The question is my friend––are you continuing to repent of sin? Are you continuing to believe? Because He who began a good work in you will finish it. He will finish it.


He then implies there is no such thing as a carnal Christian

You say, "Now, wait a minute, Brother Paul. First Corinthians chapter 3, Are ye not carnal. Paul said that."

No, that's what Paul said. You need to read the whole book to find out what he meant


Of course, he never actually does tell us what Paul really meant.

He even pulls this cliche out

"Because, folks, it's more than just telling someone you're saved because you acknowledged that Jesus is Lord. Satan acknowledges that Jesus is Lord."

Satan cannot get saved, no matter how much he believes. Why do preachers always pull this one out? Like they think Satan could get saved if he "Believed on the Lord Jesus Christ".

Mr Washer makes a LOT of GOOD POINTS in his popular message. Unfortunately, it is based on a faulty premise (using a Kingdom Gospel verse to apply to the Church).

Last edited by Luke; 04-10-2008 at 03:12 AM.
  #4  
Old 04-10-2008, 11:08 AM
Beth
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Excellent Jerry!

Repentance and Faith go hand in hand. You can't have faith, (saving faith) in Jesus without repenting. You can't just repent, (be sorry for your sin) to be saved if you are not trusting in Jesus for your eternal life.

In repentance we turn from being slaves to sin, we forsake our sin, we turn instead to be in line with God's will. We surrender our own selfish will and follow Jesus. This is true trust/belief in Jesus, to follow Him.

Of course we still have our flesh, so we won't be sinless until we are glorified with Him. The change is that we now hate our sin. I can remember before how I loved my sin and didn't want to let go of it. This has definitely changed!!!

You know when you have a repentant heart.
  #5  
Old 04-10-2008, 11:21 AM
pbiwolski's Avatar
pbiwolski pbiwolski is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Penna.
Posts: 223
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth View Post
Repentance and Faith go hand in hand.
TRUE

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth View Post
You can't have faith, (saving faith) in Jesus without repenting.
TRUE

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth View Post
You can't just repent, (be sorry for your sin)....
From warning no. 1 above..."defining the word biblically is crucial."
  #6  
Old 04-10-2008, 11:36 AM
Beth
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbiwolski View Post
From warning no. 1 above..."defining the word biblically is crucial."
Yes, I understand what you are saying. My only point is that the majority think that is what repentance unto salvation is; simply to be sorry for sin. We know that it is much more than that and that repentance, (change of mind that leads to change of life) and faith in Jesus go hand in hand.

If you ask someone if they have repented, they tend to say something like, "sure I repent every day" or they may say that they confess their sins to a Priest. Many do not understand what repentance unto salvation is.

There are two types of repentance:

1, Repentance for unbelievers for salvation
Quote:
Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Quote:
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
2, repentance for believers from daily sin
Quote:
Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Quote:
Revelation 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
Quote:
Revelation 2:21-22 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
  #7  
Old 04-10-2008, 11:53 AM
pbiwolski's Avatar
pbiwolski pbiwolski is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Penna.
Posts: 223
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerry View Post
There are also other passages that list specific sins that God expects mankind to repent of in order to be saved, in order to inherit the kingdom of God:
That's the teaching I am talking about.

The problem is that not one verse that you posted following this statement even suggests that man must repent of these sins "in order to be saved."

You are reading that into the verses. What you missed was the word inherit. No one Paul is writing to inherited their salvation, nor does Paul intend for his converts to think so. He his, however, reminding them of an inheritance that they will (could) receive in a kingdom (see that word too).

"What must I do to be saved?" Sound familiar? Paul's response to this jailor in A.16 did NOT include a command to repent of his sins before placing faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Why not? You believe it is necessary, don't you? The man certainly was a sinner, and would've had sins that must be repented of, right?

Or perhaps, the truth is that repentance for a lost man (today) is turning from his unbelief, not his individual sins that he is bound by. The man called a servant of sin and a child of disobedience must repent of trusting in anything but God's Son for righteousness. Don't tack a "work" on to that. You know the scripture of HOW you obtained God's righteousness, and not one points to you first doing anything.

The sin that brings a man condemnation is the sin of unbelief... "He that believeth not is condemned already..." The ministy of the Holy Spirit in regards to the lost man's sin is singular.
John 16:8-9 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they (commit adultery? NO, blaspheme God? NO) believe not on me;

Review how Paul (our authority for the Church Age) preached to the lost in the book of Acts and carefully see that he calls them to repent, not of their sins, but of their unbelief in the Son of God.
  #8  
Old 04-10-2008, 12:17 PM
pbiwolski's Avatar
pbiwolski pbiwolski is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Penna.
Posts: 223
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth View Post
Yes, There are two types of repentance:

1, Repentance for unbelievers for salvation

2, repentance for believers from daily sin
Well, actually there are more than two "types" of repentance in the Bible, but we don't need to go there now. I would rather say that there is one type of repentance and many ways that it is applied. The KEY is correct application of the word where it is found in the Bible.
  • God calls for national repentance on the part of the nation of Israel to introduce the gospels.
  • God plainly calls for his born-again children to repent of their sins.
  • Peter told Simon the sorcerer in Acts 8 to repent therefore of this thy wickedness... What was his wickedness? Read the passage, the man was not looking for a way to have his sin forgiven and go to heaven. His repentance was of a way of thinking.
  • But in dealing with a unregenerate sinner in 2008, what does God say? Well, Jerry needs to be careful if he wants to quote Rev. 9:20-21 to show that people need to repent of their sins in order to be saved. Going to Ezekiel is going to pose a problem when dealing with salvation for today as well.
Definition and Application. Two vital steps in understanding the doctrinal terms of the Bible
  #9  
Old 04-10-2008, 12:37 PM
Beth
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbiwolski View Post
[*]But in dealing with a unregenerate sinner in 2008, what does God say? Well, Jerry needs to be careful if he wants to quote Rev. 9:20-21 to show that people need to repent of their sins in order to be saved. Going to Ezekiel is going to pose a problem when dealing with salvation for today as well.
How about
Quote:
Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Unless they repent they perish. those perishing are unregenerate sinner's, correct? So from this can we say that they need to repent in order to be saved. of course making sure we are using the proper definition of repentance unto salvation.

and of course this applies to the unregenerate sinner in 2008.
  #10  
Old 04-10-2008, 01:36 PM
Luke's Avatar
Luke Luke is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 594
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth View Post
Excellent Jerry!

In repentance we turn from being slaves to sin, we forsake our sin, we turn instead to be in line with God's will. We surrender our own selfish will and follow Jesus. This is true trust/belief in Jesus, to follow Him.
Is this really what one needs to do to be saved? Do they need to actually be a disciple of Christ, by forsaking and following?

It's interesting to note that the word disciple does not even appear after the book of Acts.

Does a sinner really need to FORSAKE SIN first, then TURN?

Doesn't that wording eliminate the process of sanctification, and turn justification into works?

I am not having a go at you, because I am sure you would deny that a sinner must forsake their sins to be saved, because that is a works gospel. But the wording there is quite confusing, and also not right.

Salvation is

TURN from unbelief to God in believing the Gospel. That's it.

Sanctification SHOULD follow salvation, whereby we repent of our sins as a continual process and become holier, and while this does prove our salvation in some sense (to the world), it does not save us.

God bless
 

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

The King James Bible Page SwordSearcher Bible Software

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:22 AM.

Powered by vBulletin®, Copyright vBulletin Solutions Inc.

Website © AV1611.Com.
Posts represent only the opinions of users of this forum and do not necessarily represent the opinions of the webmaster.

Software for Believing Bible Study

 
Contact Us AV1611.Com