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  #41  
Old 12-30-2008, 02:47 AM
Winman Winman is offline
 
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Hi, I am new here, this is my first post, but I have been coming here and reading for quite some time. This thread really caught my interest because I have been an opponent of the Theory of Evolution and also the Big Bang Theory for many years. I am a pretty simple guy, not an expert on the Bible or science. I do not post here to start trouble or contention, but I believe that most who believe the Gap Theory are trying to reconcile the Bible with science. When I say science I mean what is generally accepted as science today, although I think "so-called" science like evolution and modern cosmology is false. And I think it is important, because many people are deceived by false science, and it turns many away from believeing the scriptures.

I do not believe the Gap Theory simply because I do not believe the Bible supports it. To me it is not a complicated matter.

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

Verse 1:31 says God saw every thing that he had made, and behold, it was very good. This would include Satan.

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee

On which day of creation Satan was created I do not know. But Satan was created.

Gen 2:1 tells us us that the heavens and earth were finished , and all the host of them. So Satan was created sometime between day one and day six.

The word "Thus" ties verse Gen 2:1 to Gen 1:31, so we know all creation was completed in six days. The word "finished" shows us that evolution is false, evolution is never "finished".

And Gen 2:2 tells us God ended his work, another blow to evolution, and the Big Bang as well that argues for an expanding universe.

So, pardon me for going over these simple verses, I have read many threads and am very impressed by the knowledge many of you have of the scriptures. Like I said, I am a simple guy, but these verses are very straightforward and not difficult to understand.
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  #42  
Old 12-30-2008, 09:35 AM
Bro. Parrish
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Winman, first off welcome to the forum!
You bring up some good points! I think you will find people on both sides of this debate here. As I have stated, I have never felt a need to accept the Gap Theory, but I wanted to comment on one thing you wrote: I do not think that most Christians on this forum who believe the Gap Theory are trying to reconcile the Bible with science. They are Creationists, and I think they are merely interpreting things a bit differently. There are good men on both sides of this issue, please see my comments on post no. 37.

I do agree 100% with your comment that many people are deceived by false science, that is a great truth brother. Again, welcome to the forum and God bless...
  #43  
Old 12-30-2008, 11:12 AM
CKG CKG is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winman View Post
I believe that most who believe the Gap Theory are trying to reconcile the Bible with science.
I must confess I've not done a lot of in-depth study on the subject of the Gap, but from what studying I've done so far I tend to lean a little towards the Gap. I can certainly understand those who disagree with the Gap and have no problem with that, but I think its important not to misrepresent what people believe. I heard a preacher say the same thing Winman said, that most who believe the Gap Theory are trying to reconcile the Bible with science. He (the preacher) said they were intimidated by the "science" that supported Darwinian evolution. He also equated those who believe in the Gap with Theistic evolution. This preacher is an okay guy, but he's plain out wrong in his statements about those who believe the Gap. There may be some exceptions, but every person I've ever read behind who supported the Gap was vehemently opposed to evolution whether it was Darwinian or Theistic and couldn't care less about the so-called science supporting evolution. Every person I've ever read behind who supported the Gap also had 100% belief that the KJV was the perfect Word of God, while many creation scientists use multiple versions. Don't get me wrong, I'm thankful for the work that men like the late Henry Morris, Hovind, Ham, and others who are presenting true science, but their findings aren't the basis for my belief in creationism. Some Christians get upset and over-whelmed every time evolutionists come up with some new scientific finding that supposedly supports evolution so they run to the creation scientist to refute it which is not necessarily wrong, but if the Bible (KJV) is truly your final authority in all matters of faith and practice what the scientists say is not going to bother you. We all know that Satan is going to use every angle (science falsely so called) he can to destroy the truths of God's Word. But what happens if the day comes when a well known creation scientist is stumped or announces he is in error about creationism or tries to compromise? Will you still believe in creation by God or will your faith fail? If you truly believe the Bible your faith in creationism will never fail regardless of what the scientists find because

"Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God,..." (Hebrews 11:3)
  #44  
Old 12-30-2008, 12:21 PM
Bro. Parrish
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CKG View Post
If you truly believe the Bible your faith in creationism will never fail regardless of what the scientists find because

"Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God,..." (Hebrews 11:3)
That is a great truth brother.
I want to inject another side to this also, it should be noted that many times when Christian scientists come up with some new scientific finding that supports Creation, we will see non-believers running to evolutionary science to try and refute it.

Personally, I think the Bible and true science are not opposed.
So I think it's important that we are not positioning Christianity against science. The Bible warns against science falsely so called (1 Timothy 6:20), but that is not real science.

Over the years, I have been able to successfully reach some science-loving unbelievers with the Gospel after I was able to invalidate their belief in "false science" with real science. The word science means "knowledge." (from the Latin scientia, meaning "knowledge" or "knowing") and I am convinced the more honest observation and real "science" becomes involved, the closer it will lead men to the reality of a Creator! (Psalm 19:1, Matthew 6:26, Romans 1:20)
  #45  
Old 12-30-2008, 01:22 PM
Winman Winman is offline
 
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Thanks for the warm welcome.

I agree, no Bible-believeing Christian should be afraid of science. I believe God's Word to be perfect and infallible, and I am never worried when false science makes claims that seemingly disprove the truth of the Bible.

I will admit that the toughest problem for me of reconciling the Bible with science was the vast size of the universe, especially starlight from stars many thousands, or even millions of light years away being seen on earth. I have seen many theories, such as those that say when God created all creation that it had the appearance of age. And there is some merit to this, Adam and Eve probably looked like full grown adults the day they were created. So this might be the case. And the Gap Theory is another theory that attempts to explain how this distant light could be seen on Earth today.

But in the last few years much new information has shown the the speed of light is not a constant. This destroys the Big Bang and even Einstein's Theory of Relativity. Some here may know of Barry Setterfield's studies, an Austrailian Christian who put forth the theory that light was traveling perhaps millions of times faster at the time of creation. At first he was ridiculed, but since that time many secular scientists have accepted his views, some even say that Setterfield's calculated speeds for light at creation are far too consevative and that light my have been traveling billions of times faster just a few thousand years ago!

Now, it doesn't matter to me if Setterfield is wrong, I know the Bible is true. But I believe that true science will always agree with the scriptures in the end.

And as I wrote before, my real concern on this issue is that our children are taught this false science everyday. Many people trust science and come to believe that the Bible is just a book of myth or superstition. So, this is a life and death matter, not something to be taken lightly.
  #46  
Old 12-30-2008, 04:07 PM
Winman Winman is offline
 
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Well, I am sorry if I offended anyone, I didn't mean to imply that those who believe the Gap Theory do not believe in the creation account in Genesis.

I did a lot of study on this in a round-about way. I believe the Bible (KJV) is true. And I believe that science will always agree with the Bible in the end when true facts are known. As a Christian, the one supposed fact of science that troubled me was the light from distant stars. I have read many, many articles on this. How could light from stars or galaxies a million light years from Earth be visible to us if the Earth is only about 6,000 years old?

Maybe the stars are not really that far away? If the earth is stationary and the universe revolves around it, then the scale for distance would be much, much smaller, something like 1/26,000 (if I remember correctly) of the scale used if the earth revolves around the sun. Sounds silly, but there are those that believe the universe revolves around the earth.

Although this is not as ridiculous as it might first seem, I am not inclined to believe this myself.

Maybe there was a gap between Gen 1:1 and 1:2? Perhaps there was creation we are not aware of? Perhaps Satan and the angels lived here? Perhaps it was destroyed and flooded, left void and without form?

This may have been a very long time, who knows? This could explain how distant starlight is here now.

But that can't be correct, because God did not create the Sun, Moon, and stars until the 4th day.

Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

Gen 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars also.

Gen 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

Gen 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that [it was] good.

Gen 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

So, if there was a gap, it still doesn't explain how light from far distant stars could arrive in a few thousand years. Plus, I just don't see the sense in adding something that's not there. God could have simply told us if this was the case, why would He not?

Perhaps God simply created the universe with the appearance of age? This has some merit, I am sure Adam and Eve looked like grown adults probably at least 25-30 years of age the day they were created. And possibly God simply made the light from the stars to already be here.

The problem with this is that it makes God appear misleading. Why would God make the world appear many millions of years old (time for the light to get here) if it is much younger?

This probably means nothing to most folks, but this problem was interesting and very perplexing to me.

I still don't know the answer, but recent discoveries are very hopeful. Barry Setterfield, a christian in Austrailia submitted evidence that the speed of light is not constant, but was much, much faster in just the last few thousand years. At first he was laughed at and ridiculed, but in recent years secular scientists have found evidence for this. Here is one such article:

http://www.spacedaily.com/news/cosmology-03f.html

Another physicist said that Setterfield's original figures were far too conservative and that the speed of light may have been billions of times faster than today in the recent past.

If true, this would disprove the Big Bang Theory and Einstein's Theory of Relativity as well. This has caused a lot of problems in the scientific community, but more and more scientists are beginning to accept this.

Now, this EASILY explains how the light from distant stars could arrive on the Earth almost instantly. So I am leaning toward this at the present time.

But whatever, whether this is shown to be true or completely false, I still know God's word is correct.
  #47  
Old 12-30-2008, 06:23 PM
Bro. Parrish
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Well it's all very interesting brother, those are great questions...
I think believers need to keep an open mind about the universe. Time and time again, we have seen man forced to re-write his text books and college courses to "catch up" with the latest discovery. It makes one thing clear; there are a LOT of things we still don't know about the physical universe, even the Earth we live on and the deep oceans hold mysteries, and I think maybe, just maybe God likes it that way. I also think as believers we need to have respect for each other's views (Gap or no Gap) and avoid projecting any of our theories as "facts." Bottom line, as you stated, God's word is correct. Anything else is up for grabs. By the way, speaking of...

I ran across this a few months ago, check this out:

Scientists suggest "Earth may be trapped in an abnormal bubble of space-time that is particularly void of matter. Scientists say this condition could account for the apparent acceleration of the universe's expansion, for which dark energy currently is the leading explanation."
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science...c-bubble_N.htm
  #48  
Old 12-30-2008, 07:48 PM
CKG CKG is offline
 
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Please understand I'm not down-playing the importance of science, but in the total scheme of things the Bible alone is the foundation for what we believe.
  #49  
Old 12-30-2008, 09:53 PM
Winman Winman is offline
 
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I read that article, just another goofy theory they have come up with.

And I am not into this as much as it might appear. I used to do a lot of study and debate with evolutionists. One time I got in a little ruffle with a professor of Astronomy at a major university online. I got him so frustrated he pulled out of the thread.

But I try to be nice about it. When you make someone mad they put up a wall and will not listen to you, even if you are probably right. I really don't talk about the subject much anymore.

I have told people before that I believe the Bible is God's Word and that I believe in a young earth and a literal six day creation. And I have been asked how the starlight got here from distant stars if the earth was young. Well, I believe we are supposed to study to give a good answer.

You know though, when I do hear that question I see it as a positive thing. It shows the person has been thinking seriously and sincerely about the subject. They strongly suspect the Word of God is true, but they are troubled by the false science they are taught. So I try to give them an answer as best I can.
  #50  
Old 01-01-2009, 10:55 PM
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MC1171611 MC1171611 is offline
 
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Hi Winman,

I'm one of the most vocal proponents of the Gap here on this board (to my knowledge, anyway) and I wanted to welcome you here and perhaps compare some notes with you on this topic.

I'm a big "fan" of Bro. Kent Hovind, with whom I'm sure you're familiar. There are but three or so issues on which I disagree with him: his small use of Hebrew to define the KJB (I've touched on this before, in this thread I think), his aversion to Dr. Ruckman (though he does recommend a book or two of his), and his opposition to the Gap and his explanation thereof.

Like your first post in this thread, Dr. Hovind takes for granted that the Gap was designed to shoehorn evolution into the Bible, much like the "Day-Age" theory or "Theistic Evolution" nonsense. I firmly disagree, and being a more recent "convert" to the belief of a Gap in Genesis 1, I can understand where he comes from and where the misunderstandings lie.

I believe everything that Dr. Hovind presents as the "Hovind Theory," from the ice meteor or comet smashing an ice canopy to the 0º original tilt of the earth to the breaking up of the earth's crust creating the tectonic plates. However, what he doesn't account for is the creation and immediate destroyed state of the earth, and the fact that Genesis 1:1 only records one Heaven being created, when we know that there are three Heavens.

It's not a subject of great doctrinal importance in any way, though some of the deep, dark fun stuff is affected by the Gap. For instance, what is "The deep"? How about Lucifer's original appearance? Is Leviathan a mythical creature, a dinosaur, or a literal being? How does the four-dimensional existence of Ephesians 3:18 fit with our current three-dimensional creation? Yeah, it's fun and a very interesting topic, and I promise you that it can be explained clearly and concisely without casting doubt upon the Scriptures, but in reality, we're here to edify one another and encourage each other as we see the Day approaching, so I try not to get too hung up on any one topic.

God bless brother, and welcome to the forum.
 

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