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  #81  
Old 03-17-2009, 07:49 PM
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CKG,

There is no way you can historically locate ALL those churches today. We can assume that Paul did establish churches in that area but that is it.

Biblestudent,

Many do not rightly divide the book of Revelation. You have done a good job explaining it us all. I agree with your study of Rev 2-3 100%. But after awhile these who are ever learning but never come to the truth all they want to do is argue. Just shake the dust off your feet and move on to the next thread.

Some have come in as of late and just want to Bible Box.
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  #82  
Old 03-17-2009, 09:02 PM
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But after awhile these who are ever learning but never come to the truth...
*cough* It takes one to know one!

Your signature "Waiting for my Bridegroom" remember.

Chette, why is it that you don't display more grace to those of us who still believe this doctrine, considering that you only recently changed your mind on it?
  #83  
Old 03-17-2009, 09:22 PM
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KiwiC,

At least I can change my Doctrinal stand when Scriptures show the truth. Instead of arguing all the time. I have learned and move on to a higher understanding of God and his word. while you stuck with your sarcastic coughs, and circle logic that basis itself on the wind tossed waters of unsound doctrines of mens knowledge.

Good day to you
  #84  
Old 03-17-2009, 09:26 PM
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KiwiC,

At least I can change my Doctrinal stand when Scriptures show the truth. Instead of arguing all the time. I have learned and move on to a higher understanding of God and his word. while you stuck with your sarcastic coughs, and circle logic that basis itself on the wind tossed waters of unsound doctrines of mens knowledge.

Good day to you
I love you too, brother.
  #85  
Old 03-17-2009, 09:58 PM
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Johanine epistles? Brother, I addressed the scriptures that needed addressing in my mind, and they were the ones written to me by Paul the Apostle. I have explained that I don't agree with the way you have handled those texts in dismissing them as figurative only.

While I have certainly appreciated the lengthy posts and citing of many scriptures on your part, I think you're over-dividing the word by more or less saying that John wrote the book of Revelation to Israel, and calling John “the Apostle to the Jews”. Do you even think 1 John 1:9 applies to the Christian?

So what if Paul never called the Church a bride? Paul used the words “espoused”, "chaste virgin", “married”, and “wife” in relation to Christ and the Church, and ALL of those words are associated with the word “bride”.

I don’t dispute that Israel will be married again to God (Jehovah) in the future, I dispute that Israel will be married to JESUS CHRIST, and that verse above says no such thing. Israel will be reunited with her Husband again, but it’s the Father not the Son.
#1
I was referring to the Gospel of John and the Book of Revelation, written by the Apostle John. I forgot that the "Johanine epistles" refer to 1, 2, and 3 John.

Doctrinal Interpretation vs. Devotional Application
1 John 1:7 and 1 John 1:9 teaches CONDITIONAL cleansing with the blood of Christ:
1. "IF we walk in the light...we have fellowship with His Son...and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us"
2. "IF we confess our sins, he is faithful...to forgive..."
Doctrinally, this conditional salvation fits the Tribulation period and does not fit the Age of Grace. Of course it can have application to the Christian in the Age of Grace, only if you SPIRITUALIZE the "IF's".

#2
"Over-dividing" is just as wrong as "not dividing".
1. I did not say John wrote Revelation to Israel, for John was told to write it to the seven churches where are in Asia "on the Lord's day" (Rev. 1:10). What I was saying is that John couldn't and didn't write about the Body of Christ because that mystery was given to another apostle not one of the Twelve.
2. If John is not “the Apostle to the Jews”, where or when was he ever an "Apostle to the Church" or an "Apostle to the Gentiles"?
If "apostle" means "sent", and if "circumcision" means "Jews", then John is(without a doubt one of the Twelve Apostles to the Jews):

Matthew 10:2 Now the names of the twelve apostlesare these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


Galatians 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles
9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.


Let's not take this question for granted: "Who is your apostle? John or Paul?"
Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

I have NEVER seen in Scripture that the TWELVE were ever sent to the Church. Yes, there are "church apostles" (1 Cor., Eph) and Paul is the LEADING apostle, but the TWELVE were never sent to the ONE BODY.

#3 "Espoused", "chaste virign", "married", and "wife" are associated with the "bride", but "bride" - Scripturally speaking - is never associated with the Body of Christ.
What if Paul never callled the Church "a bride"? Then you got a problem, for John has repeatedly called Israel the "bride"
1. John 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
In the book of John, ISRAEL occurs over and over and CHURCH occurs not one time. Context, please!
2. Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,


Is the Church a "city"? Please dont' disregard this question. The Body of Christ is not present in the book of Revelation. The "SEVEN churches" is not "ONE body". They are seven LOCAL churches in ASIA: 7 vs. 1;
LOCAL = ASIA (only);

Now, has anyone ever notice that to say, "The seven churches is 'doctrinally' a 'spiritual' history of the church is not only a contradiction but is SPIRITUALIZING?

LITERALLY, the seven churches which are in Asia on the Lord's day are seven churches which are in Asia on the Lord's day.
Laodicea is LITERALLY a place and one has to SPIRITUALIZE it in order to make it a time period.
Each of the seven churches have one "angel" over them, and an angel is not a group of "church fathers", "protestant reformers", or "missionaries".


#3 So there are two marriages in the Millennium?? I see only one in the Millennium, and it's only for the son. You have to produce a verse to teach other wise.
Matthew 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, ("a marriage", sing.; "for his son" only)

Comparing Scripture with Scripture, there is only ONE Bridegroom and that is the Son. Isn't the Jehovah of the OT the Jesus of the NT? (Do we need to run another set of Scripture to prove that?)

Isaiah 62:5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.

John 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
  #86  
Old 03-17-2009, 10:15 PM
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Brother Kiwi, sorry for my long posts; but at least you see why (as Brother Chette) I had to change my position back then.

On this issue, it certainly not that easy to disregard my Elemental Theology, Christian Theology, and Systematic Theolgy, as well as Cambron, Evans, Willmington, Scofield, Bancroft, Schafer, Larkin, Ruckman (my greatly admired KJB preacher), etc. I am also very much aware of the extremes of Bullinger, Welch, Baker, Stam, and others.

Now, opening my KJB, I see once and for all the King James Bible's BUILT-IN DEFINITION and SELF-INTERPRETATION of its OWN WORDS.

What Paul was talking about in Romans ("married"), 2 Corinthians ("virign"), and Ephesians ("wife") is the Body of Christ (Eph 5:30-32).

What John the Apostle was writing about (and John the Baptist is preaching about) when he talks about the bride and the bridegroom is literally:

ISRAEL
John 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

John 1:31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

THE HOLY CITY, NEW JERUSALEM
Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
  #87  
Old 03-17-2009, 10:44 PM
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Brother Kiwi, sorry for my long posts; but at least you see why I had to change my position back then.
No need to apologise brother, you've done a splendid job of showing your position. I have read through every one of your posts and meditated on them.
  #88  
Old 03-17-2009, 10:51 PM
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Thanks, brother!
  #89  
Old 03-18-2009, 12:07 AM
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I love you too, brother.
Proverbs 27:5, 6 Open rebuke [is] better than secret love. Faithful [are] the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy [are] deceitful.

I love you too Matt.
  #90  
Old 03-18-2009, 12:13 AM
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Excellent work BibleStudent A+,

For additional info on apostles to the church see Romans 16 for Paul has listed a few men and a woman there as Apostles as well.
 

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