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Old 03-08-2009, 09:18 PM
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Stephanos,

there is no mention of the church or a church after Rev. 3. our relationship with Christ or Israel is not mentioned in the Bible because we are no longer part of the 24/7 TQ. we are in eternity with Christ never to be apart from Him.

Kiwi,

try not to lump people into camps. God's word uses the wife in Hosea as a figure why can't he inspire it to be so in the NT? And it is obvious the Rom 7 1-4 is about unity Paul was the greatest teacher of the Bodies unity as well as Eph 5. being united is liken as a marriage in 1 cor. being yolked is a union of marriage. the verses you stuff into your Bride understanding are to those that support Paul's teaching on unity of the Body of which he is the Head, not the church is the Bride of Christ. we must be Biblical over traditional.

So can a body of which the head is part of Marry itself? I think Not.
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  #12  
Old 03-08-2009, 11:44 PM
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Originally Posted by chette777 View Post
Stephanos,

there is no mention of the church or a church after Rev. 3. our relationship with Christ or Israel is not mentioned in the Bible because we are no longer part of the 24/7 TQ. we are in eternity with Christ never to be apart from Him.
Yes, but if this is the case, why is there ZERO mention of this after Revelation 3? You'd think that would be something to take note of if that's what John saw. Not that I doubt that we are in eternity with Christ, but what I want to know is what is the relationship the Church has with Israel after Revelation 3. Perhaps there is nothing to indicate there is any relationship. Nevertheless I think it is VERY uncanny that the word "church" disappears after chapter 3.

Peace and Love,
Stephen
  #13  
Old 03-09-2009, 12:56 AM
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Joh 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

John says he is the friend of the bridegroom not part of the bride. I guess he must have lucked out or something.

Psa 45:13 The king's daughter is all glorious within: her clothing is of wrought gold.
Psa 45:14 She shall be brought unto the king in raiment of needlework: the virgins her companions that follow her shall be brought unto thee.

Luk 12:35 Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning;
Luk 12:36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.

Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Son 6:8 There are threescore queens, and fourscore concubines, and virgins without number.
Son 6:9 My dove, my undefiled is but one; she is the only one of her mother, she is the choice one of her that bare her. The daughters saw her, and blessed her; yea, the queens and the concubines, and they praised her.

You will notice there are many virgins who will be guests (Matthew 22). In Luke 12, these virgins waiting with their lamps are waiting for the lord to return from the wedding and let them in. You will also notice that the bride is one chaste virgin (2 Cor 11:1-3), not many virgins, so Matthew 25 could not be describing virgins going to get married to the bridegroom, but to meet him.
  #14  
Old 03-09-2009, 01:56 AM
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Kevin quote:
You will also notice that the bride is one chaste virgin (2 Cor 11:1-3)

in this quote you add the word bride and change the word of God and its true Doctrine of Unity to the false Doctrine that the Body of Christ is the Bride. no where in 2 Cor 11 is the word bride. No where within 100 verse either direction is the word Bride.

This is how subtle men can be in trying to establish a doctrine. but when faced with the truth men will cling to tradition rather than to the clear written word of God.

This technique is also used by Calvinist to prove their points of the TULIP. see that thread for more info by George.

Not all virgins are brides. you cannot make the one the other. The rule of thumb, "things that differ are not the same" Doug Stoufer - One Book Rightly Divided
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Old 03-09-2009, 02:13 AM
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Originally Posted by chette777 View Post
Kevin quote:
You will also notice that the bride is one chaste virgin (2 Cor 11:1-3)

in this quote you add the word bride and change the word of God and its true Doctrine of Unity to the false Doctrine that the Body of Christ is the Bride. no where in 2 Cor 11 is the word bride. No where within 100 verse either direction is the word Bride.

This is how subtle men can be in trying to establish a doctrine. but when faced with the truth men will cling to tradition rather than to the clear written word of God.

This technique is also used by Calvinist to prove their points of the TULIP. see that thread for more info by George.

Not all virgins are brides. you cannot make the one the other. The rule of thumb, "things that differ are not the same" Doug Stoufer - One Book Rightly Divided
I never said the word bride was in the verse. According to the verses that do talk about the bride she is. Notice Son 6:9. You tried making the virgins on Matthew 25 the bride when they clearly aren't.

Last edited by kevinvw; 03-09-2009 at 02:25 AM.
  #16  
Old 03-09-2009, 02:55 AM
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So can a body of which the head is part of Marry itself?
The answer to this question is paramount to the doctrine being discussed, it is foundational to understanding the Church's relationship with Jesus Christ.

Can a body, of which the head is part of, marry itself? YES. Kevinvw already answered this question when he said "One has to go no further than Genesis 2 to get the teaching. Adam is put to sleep and a woman is created out of him and is bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh. Jesus died to purchase a group of people that become bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh."

Eve (a type of the church) was the "body" of Adam (a type of Christ) before she was his "bride", likewise the church bears the same relationship to Jesus Christ. Paul spells this out in Ephesians 5:30-32 when he quotes Genesis 2:23-24.

Ephesians 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Genesis 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. 23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Eve was taken from Adam's body, she was "bone of his bones, and flesh of his flesh," but she was also his wife! Therein we have a crystal clear type of the church as the bride & wife-to-be of Jesus Christ.
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Old 03-09-2009, 03:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Kiwi Christian View Post
The answer to this question is paramount to the doctrine being discussed, it is foundational to understanding the Church's relationship with Jesus Christ.

Can a body, of which the head is part of, marry itself? YES. Kevinvw already answered this question when he said "One has to go no further than Genesis 2 to get the teaching. Adam is put to sleep and a woman is created out of him and is bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh. Jesus died to purchase a group of people that become bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh."

Eve (a type of the church) was the "body" of Adam (a type of Christ) before she was his "bride", likewise the church bears the same relationship to Jesus Christ. Paul spells this out in Ephesians 5:30-32 when he quotes Genesis 2:23-24.

Ephesians 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Genesis 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. 23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Eve was taken from Adam's body, she was "bone of his bones, and flesh of his flesh," but she was also his wife! Therein we have a crystal clear type of the church as the bride & wife-to-be of Jesus Christ.
At least somebody gets the typology right. Man, Not only is she Adam's wife when she is made, she's also a virgin and married to him at the same time. An exact picture of the church as told by Paul. You can't forget the typology as presented in the book of Ruth or the Songs of Solomon either along with Psalm 45. The typology is important for wisdom and understanding. Moses messed up the typology and was punished by God.
  #18  
Old 03-09-2009, 03:15 AM
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Kiwi Christian Kiwi Christian is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinvw View Post
You will also notice that the bride is one chaste virgin (2 Cor 11:1-3), not many virgins, so Matthew 25 could not be describing virgins going to get married to the bridegroom, but to meet him.
Good point Kevin. It brings to light another good reason why Israel, the "wife" of Jehovah in the Old Testament, cannot possibly be espoused to marry Jesus Christ in the future, for Christ's wife is to be a VIRGIN. Israel committed adultery against God in the Old Testament, He cast her away and will restore her again, but as His wife, not as a "virgin" bride!

Isaiah 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. 6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God. 7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. 8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.

Jeremiah 3:1 They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, shall he return unto her again? shall not that land be greatly polluted? but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the LORD.

Hosea 3:1 Then said the LORD unto me, Go yet, love a woman beloved of her friend, yet an adulteress, according to the love of the LORD toward the children of Israel, who look to other gods, and love flagons of wine. 2 So I bought her to me for fifteen pieces of silver, and for an homer of barley, and an half homer of barley: 3 And I said unto her, Thou shalt abide for me many days; thou shalt not play the harlot, and thou shalt not be for another man: so will I also be for thee. 4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim: 5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.
  #19  
Old 03-09-2009, 03:39 AM
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Originally Posted by chette777 View Post

This is how subtle men can be in trying to establish a doctrine. but when faced with the truth men will cling to tradition rather than to the clear written word of God.

This technique is also used by Calvinist to prove their points of the TULIP. see that thread for more info by George.
Ok, this sort of comment isn't necessary. I hate to break it to you Chette, but you're not the only one on these forums that is interested in getting to the bottom of this. But you are the only one that frequently condescends into using comments like this. Would you cut it out please?

Stephen
  #20  
Old 03-09-2009, 03:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Kiwi Christian View Post
Good point Kevin. It brings to light another good reason why Israel, the "wife" of Jehovah in the Old Testament, cannot possibly be espoused to marry Jesus Christ in the future, for Christ's wife is to be a VIRGIN. Israel committed adultery against God in the Old Testament, He cast her away and will restore her again, but as His wife, not as a "virgin" bride!

Isaiah 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. 6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God. 7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. 8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.

Jeremiah 3:1 They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, shall he return unto her again? shall not that land be greatly polluted? but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the LORD.

Hosea 3:1 Then said the LORD unto me, Go yet, love a woman beloved of her friend, yet an adulteress, according to the love of the LORD toward the children of Israel, who look to other gods, and love flagons of wine. 2 So I bought her to me for fifteen pieces of silver, and for an homer of barley, and an half homer of barley: 3 And I said unto her, Thou shalt abide for me many days; thou shalt not play the harlot, and thou shalt not be for another man: so will I also be for thee. 4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim: 5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.
You know, I was wondering if someone was going to comment on this. I was thinking just this very thing just a moment ago.

Peace and Love,
Stephen
 

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