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  #81  
Old 06-10-2009, 08:51 PM
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What is going on? I was SOOOO trying to SUPPORT you! And the above quote (from your second post) says that you are still "not saying scripture doesn't teach that it shouldn't be done..." (How does that constitute changing your opinion?) The fact that you don't believe my scripture references back it up is not related to that statement!

I apologize profusely for making you feel that I misrepresented what you said; I sincerely hope that it is obvious from this post that that was not my intent! And if I've misunderstood and commented out-of-line on this post, I apologize in advance!

I cannot for the life of me understand, though, why everyone that has posted on here believes that all the clear scripture passages that teach that saved people should separate from lost people can apply to friend relationships, work/business relationships, etc. but cannot apply to the most intimate human relationship of all - marriage! CAN ANYONE PLEASE ADDRESS THAT???

Pam
www.custerfamilyfarm.com
Quote:
I apologize profusely for making you feel that I misrepresented what you said; I sincerely hope that it is obvious from this post that that was not my intent!
Pam,

You didn't make me "feel" that you misrepresented me. You misrepresented me. However, I accept your apology.

Quote:
What is going on? I was SOOOO trying to SUPPORT you!
This isn't about forming factions to strengthen our positions, it's about rightly dividing the scriptures.

Quote:
And the above quote (from your second post) says that you are still "not saying scripture doesn't teach that it shouldn't be done..." (How does that constitute changing your opinion?) The fact that you don't believe my scripture references back it up is not related to that statement!
Pam, I haven't come to any conclusions! Here's the complete sentence that you quoted just a part of. If you will read it and consider it's meaning then I think you will understand.

"I'm not saying that I think its a good idea for believers to marry unbelievers and I'm not saying scripture doesn't teach that it shouldn't be done, I just don't see any of the verses that you've referenced that say so." Let me state it another way, "I'm not saying scripture does teach that it shouldn't be done. I honestly don't know what scripture teaches. I was hoping to find out but you wresting the scriptures out of context is not going to lead to any answers to what they teach.

The changing of my mind was that of rejecting my previous application of an instruction from Paul to believing widows as a possible command to all believers. That is a stretch that I don't think is warranted.

Quote:
The fact that you don't believe my scripture references back it up is not related to that statement!
We are in agreement on nothing. The closest we come is 1 Cor 7:39. You make it apply to all believers, I don't necessarily believe that. You make it necessary for a person to carefully map out the entire exchange which is time-consuming and tedious and wouldn't be necessary if you didn't bend and twist things.

Quote:
I cannot for the life of me understand, though, why everyone that has posted on here believes that all the clear scripture passages that teach that saved people should separate from lost people can apply to friend relationships, work/business relationships, etc. but cannot apply to the most intimate human relationship of all - marriage! CAN ANYONE PLEASE ADDRESS THAT???
There you go generalizing and twisting scripture again. Each passage that you have cited about separation has a different context, not some general application that you can use wherever you like.
Why should we address some speculation on your part? We could all speculate on anything we liked and all talk about it but how is that edifying? We're here to learn what God says, not what each of us says. So, find us a scripture that commands believers not to marry unbelievers and we'll discuss it.

Jennifer

Last edited by greenbear; 06-10-2009 at 09:04 PM.
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  #82  
Old 06-10-2009, 09:56 PM
custer custer is offline
 
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George,
As per your instructions, I don't expect a reply to this...it would, no doubt, only be another defamatory rant anyway! However, I will address a few things that you neglected to mention...First, though, I would like to point out that I am NOT the one who took this thread off topic...unless I'm mistaken, it happened in posts #20, 34, 35, and 40; I didn't chime in on this new subject (saved/lost marriage) until #62. I don't recall you fussing on any other posters for changing the subject - I'm only mentioning this to demonstrate that you were just (like I said before) purposefully being inflammatory.

In my post #72, I clarified one of my points and gave a specific example of where YOU intentionally twisted MY words...then I asked if we could "discuss scripture or not" and if you could "do it civilly."
You did not answer!

In my post #73, I proposed that the reason that you and I were clashing might be that we had misunderstood each other's basic premise (in an effort to ease the evident tension and make way for a smooth discussion.) I asked if you agreed that that would make a difference in our discourse.
You did not answer!

In my post #74 (THIS IS MY PERSONAL FAVORITE!!!,) I commented on your reprimand of me for using an English dictionary to look up an English word from an English Bible. Your position was that I should have a Bible definition instead. But, when I asked YOU to provide the BIBLE DEFINITION for the word ("yoked,")
You did not answer!

In my post #68 (oh, maybe THIS is my favorite...I can't decide!,) I ran a reference for "fellowship" (the parallel to "yoked" in your pet II Cor. 6:14,) and there it is in Ephesians 5...along with marriage in Ephesians 5. (My point is that when you proposed that II Cor. 6:14 could not possibly have anything to do with marriage, one of the reasons you gave was that "marriage" or any related words could not be found in II Cor. 6 or the surrounding chapters.) So, when I showed that the parallel (with clear separation teaching) DOES show up in a chapter with marriage,
You did not answer! (and, no, saying that I am "beating a dead horse" and that I already have your and your wife's testimony, does NOT constitute a Bible answer as to why your premise applies to II Cor. 6 but NOT to Ephesians 5 - that was YOUR argument, YOUR standard for the passage, yet
You did not answer!

WHY, if you only want to instruct us in the truth of God's word, would you simply rant about me personally and not answer these things? (This question is, of course, rhetorical, because you have already stated that you don't want to reply...and we all know why!)

If I may inject a little personal opinion - When someone doesn't HAVE answers, they simply resort to popular distraction tactics (rants, personal attacks, and repetiton) to keep the focus off of the original questions!

Pam
www.custerfamilyfarm.com
  #83  
Old 06-10-2009, 11:11 PM
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Still waiting for a scripture that commands believers not to marry unbelievers and we'll discuss it.
  #84  
Old 06-10-2009, 11:30 PM
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Pam,

So, find us a scripture that commands believers not to marry unbelievers and we'll discuss it.

Jennifer
This statement (to me) clarifies your position better than anything else you have written! (I'm not 100% sure, but it seems to express the belief of others on this thread as well.) Are you suggesting that you have an explicit Bible command for every single thing that you do or don't do in life? (Now, before you accuse me of misrepresenting you again, please notice that that was a QUESTION - "Are you...; NOT, you ARE...!" It seems absurd to even have to point that out, but on this forum, I can't even quote scripture and ask how we should apply it or ask for explanation of a teaching or even ask for cross-references without y'all seeking to catch something out of my mouth, that you might accuse me!!! So, again, please remember, it's just a question!

Also, I'd like to "answer" the quote of yours that I gave above (since I affirmed that George did not answer me [post #82] and I thought that was the purpose of forums!) I do not have (and have not claimed to have) "a scripture that commands believers not to marry unbelievers," IF you are saying that the verse must contain those exact words - Again, I don't want to misrepresent you...Isn't that what you are saying??? My assertion is that it is LUDICROUS to assume that Paul would impose that standard ("only in the Lord") on widows and not on the remainder of the body of Christ! Of course, this is the point where I get accused of scripture-wresting and private interpretation, but that's ONLY because you all have rejected/dismissed glaring Bible principles (and cross-references) as irrelevant!

Pam
www.custerfamilyfarm.com
  #85  
Old 06-11-2009, 01:02 AM
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Originally Posted by custer View Post
This statement (to me) clarifies your position better than anything else you have written! (I'm not 100% sure, but it seems to express the belief of others on this thread as well.) Are you suggesting that you have an explicit Bible command for every single thing that you do or don't do in life? (Now, before you accuse me of misrepresenting you again, please notice that that was a QUESTION - "Are you...; NOT, you ARE...!" It seems absurd to even have to point that out, but on this forum, I can't even quote scripture and ask how we should apply it or ask for explanation of a teaching or even ask for cross-references without y'all seeking to catch something out of my mouth, that you might accuse me!!! So, again, please remember, it's just a question!

Also, I'd like to "answer" the quote of yours that I gave above (since I affirmed that George did not answer me [post #82] and I thought that was the purpose of forums!) I do not have (and have not claimed to have) "a scripture that commands believers not to marry unbelievers," IF you are saying that the verse must contain those exact words - Again, I don't want to misrepresent you...Isn't that what you are saying??? My assertion is that it is LUDICROUS to assume that Paul would impose that standard ("only in the Lord") on widows and not on the remainder of the body of Christ! Of course, this is the point where I get accused of scripture-wresting and private interpretation, but that's ONLY because you all have rejected/dismissed glaring Bible principles (and cross-references) as irrelevant!

Pam
www.custerfamilyfarm.com
Pam,

This is my take on what has taken place.

You have held two positions on this thread.

1) Races should not intermarry
2) Believers should not marry unbelievers

This is a KJBO, largely fundamentalist forum. We have asked you for scriptural evidence to back up your assertions. You have provided no relevant scriptural support for either position. We tired of your fast and lose "style" of exegesis and after many, many, many posts back and forth we want to leave it be until you have at least one relevant verse to back up your opinion. Have you any respect to our desire to put it to rest? Not exactly. You come back with a close-ended question designed to be answered with a 'yes" or a "no".
Quote:
Are you suggesting that you have an explicit Bible command for every single thing that you do or don't do in life?
Are you suggesting that you can make a Bible command where one doesn't exist because you feel there should be one?

I notice you have the bad habit of phrasing your questions in such a way as to elicit the answer you are looking for. When I was in my twenties I had a woman boss who pointed this same tendency out to me. I had never realized it. It took me some time to shed that habit, but I was able to once I had been made aware of it.

When studying the scriptures we have to come with a humble heart and an open, expectant mind, if we are to learn anything. I don't know nearly as much as I should because I have been back-slidden off and on (mostly on) for a dozen years. There are people on this board who are very knowledgeable, who have a lot to offer us. People who have studied and walked with the Lord since before we were born, or people with certain gifts and expertise. On a board like this if we pay attention we will even learn HOW TO STUDY the Bible.

I want to leave you with this passage from Philippians chapter 2. This is how I aspire to be. Hopefully, we all do.

Philippians 2:1-8 If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies, Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

In Him,

Jennifer

Last edited by greenbear; 06-11-2009 at 01:14 AM.
  #86  
Old 06-11-2009, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by greenbear View Post
Pam,

This is my take on what has taken place.

You have held two positions on this thread.

1) Races should not intermarry
2) Believers should not marry unbelievers

This is a KJBO, largely fundamentalist forum. We have asked you for scriptural evidence to back up your assertions. You have provided no relevant scriptural support for either position. We tired of your fast and lose "style" of exegesis and after many, many, many posts back and forth we want to leave it be until you have at least one relevant verse to back up your opinion. Have you any respect to our desire to put it to rest? Not exactly. You come back with a close-ended question designed to be answered with a 'yes" or a "no".

Are you suggesting that you can make a Bible command where one doesn't exist because you feel there should be one?

I notice you have the bad habit of phrasing your questions in such a way as to elicit the answer you are looking for.

In Him,

Jennifer
It was my understanding that we would all go back to the race issue after this discussion was completed. And, no the discourse is NOT complete when one party asks questions and receives no answers...only more questions and accusations!

It is almost humorous that this is a "KJBO, largely fundamentalist forum," and yet the most simple yes-or-no question causes people to bristle! The "answer [I was] looking for" is YOUR answer...I made it very clear that I was posing a simple question! To just answer the question would have taken you much less time and effort than to write the response that you did. Why have you and George just tried to identify my "bad habits" instead of staying on the subject?

I do not have any problem answering your question addressed to me quoted above: my simple answer to your yes-or-no question is NO!!! The explanation for my answer (or what I AM "suggesting") is as follows:
The Bible is full of unmistakable principles that constitute "commands," not just suggestions! A couple of examples: Since we are dispensationalists and realize that we must take our doctrine from Paul, we must note that Paul DOES NOT expressly "command" us to abstain from beastiality. There are Bible principles about "uncleanness," "lasciviousness," "going after strange flesh," defiling your temple, and such...but Paul never "commands" a believer not to engage in beastiality! Or how about what kind of car to drive? There are Bible truths that support the idea that it would be wrong (or at the VERY least, absurdly frivolous) for a saved person to buy a Ferrari (sp?): principles of stewardship, having no debt, and using money for God's glory (mission work, etc.)...but again, the Lord never gives any "commands" about what kind of car to drive. There is no scriptural "command" that plainly states that today's Christian cannot have tatoos put on their body or one that "commands" us not to burn our children in the fire as in OT times...We do not have liberty in Christ to do these things just because there is not A VERSE that says not to! This is my whole point!

Also, to address the accusation that I am using scripture out of context, keep this in mind - If we stay STRICTLY in the context of each of the passages I have listed and withdraw ourselves and turn away (separate) from lost people like the Bible says (in the individual context of each portion of scripture,) we could never get attached enough to a lost person to consider a marriage relationship with one - you would have to associate very closely in order to get to know someone that well which, of course, would be in violation of the scriptures I previously posted! In light of this, it is impossible to postulate that various Bible verses about separation of saved and lost people (in different contexts) are not relevant to this discussion!

This is not a desire to go "back and forth" as you say, nor is it a desire to argue as George has repeatedly accused me of...I am simply asking questions and requesting answers (with, I hope, a sufficient amount of clarification) just like I expect y'all to ask me questions and request answers...isn't that what constitutes a forum discussion?

Also, I would like to thank you because (unlike George) you have attempted to have a polite discourse with me (I am assuming here that you sincerely believed [albeit mistakenly!] that I was wresting the scriptures)...we have both used a little sharpness, but that just keeps things lively, I suppose!

Pam
www.custerfamilyfarm.com
  #87  
Old 06-11-2009, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by custer View Post
It was my understanding that we would all go back to the race issue after this discussion was completed. And, no the discourse is NOT complete when one party asks questions and receives no answers...only more questions and accusations!

It is almost humorous that this is a "KJBO, largely fundamentalist forum," and yet the most simple yes-or-no question causes people to bristle! The "answer [I was] looking for" is YOUR answer...I made it very clear that I was posing a simple question! To just answer the question would have taken you much less time and effort than to write the response that you did. Why have you and George just tried to identify my "bad habits" instead of staying on the subject?

I do not have any problem answering your question addressed to me quoted above: my simple answer to your yes-or-no question is NO!!! The explanation for my answer (or what I AM "suggesting") is as follows:
The Bible is full of unmistakable principles that constitute "commands," not just suggestions! A couple of examples: Since we are dispensationalists and realize that we must take our doctrine from Paul, we must note that Paul DOES NOT expressly "command" us to abstain from beastiality. There are Bible principles about "uncleanness," "lasciviousness," "going after strange flesh," defiling your temple, and such...but Paul never "commands" a believer not to engage in beastiality! Or how about what kind of car to drive? There are Bible truths that support the idea that it would be wrong (or at the VERY least, absurdly frivolous) for a saved person to buy a Ferrari (sp?): principles of stewardship, having no debt, and using money for God's glory (mission work, etc.)...but again, the Lord never gives any "commands" about what kind of car to drive. There is no scriptural "command" that plainly states that today's Christian cannot have tatoos put on their body or one that "commands" us not to burn our children in the fire as in OT times...We do not have liberty in Christ to do these things just because there is not A VERSE that says not to! This is my whole point!

Also, to address the accusation that I am using scripture out of context, keep this in mind - If we stay STRICTLY in the context of each of the passages I have listed and withdraw ourselves and turn away (separate) from lost people like the Bible says (in the individual context of each portion of scripture,) we could never get attached enough to a lost person to consider a marriage relationship with one - you would have to associate very closely in order to get to know someone that well which, of course, would be in violation of the scriptures I previously posted! In light of this, it is impossible to postulate that various Bible verses about separation of saved and lost people (in different contexts) are not relevant to this discussion!

This is not a desire to go "back and forth" as you say, nor is it a desire to argue as George has repeatedly accused me of...I am simply asking questions and requesting answers (with, I hope, a sufficient amount of clarification) just like I expect y'all to ask me questions and request answers...isn't that what constitutes a forum discussion?

Also, I would like to thank you because (unlike George) you have attempted to have a polite discourse with me (I am assuming here that you sincerely believed [albeit mistakenly!] that I was wresting the scriptures)...we have both used a little sharpness, but that just keeps things lively, I suppose!

Pam
www.custerfamilyfarm.com
Pam,

You manipulate peoples words even in the way that you quote them. This is
what you chose to include of my words in your post box:

Quote:
Originally Posted by greenbear View Post
Pam,

This is my take on what has taken place.

You have held two positions on this thread.

1) Races should not intermarry
2) Believers should not marry unbelievers

This is a KJBO, largely fundamentalist forum. We have asked you for scriptural evidence to back up your assertions. You have provided no relevant scriptural support for either position. We tired of your fast and lose "style" of exegesis and after many, many, many posts back and forth we want to leave it be until you have at least one relevant verse to back up your opinion. Have you any respect to our desire to put it to rest? Not exactly. You come back with a close-ended question designed to be answered with a 'yes" or a "no".

Are you suggesting that you can make a Bible command where one doesn't exist because you feel there should be one?

I notice you have the bad habit of phrasing your questions in such a way as to elicit the answer you are looking for.

In Him,

Jennifer
Are you trying to make me out to be a hypocrite by quoting the question that I posed to you in the same manner that you posted to me your question in order to make a point? If that is your intent, it is deceptive.


The reason why I keep responding to you is not because I feel some big need to be right and it's not because I feel obligated to because this is a forum. I respond to you because I honestly don't think you see what we are saying to you. I can't have a discussion about scripture with someone who goes into it with preconceived ideas and looks for scripture to support their position. Believers should go to scripture to find out what God says and then form their opinions based on their understanding of what God has said. Unfortunately, I have seen you come in with preconceived ideas on this thread and try to force scriptures to fit your argument. Does that make you a bad person any more than the rest of the board? I don't think so. Yet, I don't think it is pleasing to God and I don't think you will come to a deeper understanding of His Word that way.

We don't have to argue every point with someone that we don't see eye to eye on. We can agree to disagree for the time being. It's not worth disobeying clear commandments from the Lord about fomenting strife and dissensions. I'm not singling you out here, this applies to all christians. I want to edify you and be a blessing to you and I'm sure you feel the same. We all battle fleshly impulses. None of us is perfect. We must all remember that knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.

In Christ's love,

Jennifer
  #88  
Old 06-11-2009, 02:13 PM
custer custer is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenbear View Post
Pam,

You manipulate peoples words even in the way that you quote them. This is
what you chose to include of my words in your post box:



Are you trying to make me out to be a hypocrite by quoting the question that I posed to you in the same manner that you posted to me your question in order to make a point? If that is your intent, it is deceptive.


The reason why I keep responding to you is not because I feel some big need to be right and it's not because I feel obligated to because this is a forum. I respond to you because I honestly don't think you see what we are saying to you. I can't have a discussion about scripture with someone who goes into it with preconceived ideas and looks for scripture to support their position. Believers should go to scripture to find out what God says and then form their opinions based on their understanding of what God has said. Unfortunately, I have seen you come in with preconceived ideas on this thread and try to force scriptures to fit your argument. Does that make you a bad person any more than the rest of the board? I don't think so. Yet, I don't think it is pleasing to God and I don't think you will come to a deeper understanding of His Word that way.

We don't have to argue every point with someone that we don't see eye to eye on. We can agree to disagree for the time being. It's not worth disobeying clear commandments from the Lord about fomenting strife and dissensions. I'm not singling you out here, this applies to all christians. I want to edify you and be a blessing to you and I'm sure you feel the same. We all battle fleshly impulses. None of us is perfect. We must all remember that knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.

In Christ's love,

Jennifer
There, I'll post your entire quote instead of the part I am addressing...Is that what you want??? It was just more clear to quote the exact thing I was responding to at the time...

How in the world did I manipulate your words? All I did was to quote them verbatim!

How am I trying to make you out to be a hypocrite? I thought you asked me a sincere question, as I did you...apparently, I was wrong about that. I answered yours; you still won't answer mine!

I proved conclusively to you the relevance of the previously posted scriptures (you had questioned their relevance,) yet you refuse to accept, address, or even acknowledge that I did so. Instead, you accuse me of coming "into it with preconceived ideas." You say we should "go to scripture to find out what God says," but when I do precisely that, YOU IGNORE IT and talk about anything besides what was in the last post!!!

I realize that we are going to have to "agree to disagree," but would you please, or can you, tell me how/if I failed to prove relevance in my post #86? I would be edified and blessed (like you said was your goal) if you would SIMPLY answer my questions!

Pam
www.custerfamilyfarm.com
  #89  
Old 06-11-2009, 02:24 PM
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Pam, I just want to let you know that I have to get stuff done right now. I'll try to respond later tonight.

Jennifer
  #90  
Old 06-11-2009, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenbear View Post
Pam, I just want to let you know that I have to get stuff done right now. I'll try to respond later tonight.

Jennifer

Thanks, and please let me reiterate...From my standpoint, this is NOT an argument; it is a discussion, a lively and friendly debate! I would hope that parties here could give their scriptural positions; explain, question, and clarify; read and study; and in the end, all could be edified and taught by the Holy Ghost (John 14:26.)

Pam
www.custerfamilyfarm.com
 

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