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Old 10-27-2008, 11:44 PM
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Default "the Breath Of Life"

THE “BREATH OF LIFE”

[Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: . . . . ]

Please notice the relationship between God’s “words” and “life”:

Philippians 2:16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.
1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

What kind of “word” is being spoken of? - “The word of life”. What kind of “words” are spoken? - The “words” of “eternal life”! What is significant about the “words" of God? – They are spirit, and they are life”! From hence do these “words” proceed? {“The WORD of Life” – the giver of all life!}

Now, notice the relationship between the “spirit” in man & “the breath of life”:

Quote:
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

Isaiah 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
The above verses clearly demonstrate that, as far as receiving the “spirit” of man, (which is in all men) from God is concerned; Adam is NOT just an “isolated” case – “separate” from all the rest of mankind! God “breathes life” upon all the people of the earth and imparts to all men “spirit” and “life” - The question is: WHEN does He do it?

Quote:
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Job 27:3 All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;
{The “spirit” spoken of here is the “spirit” that God gives to all men (when he “breathes” on them) – NOT the Holy Spirit of God.}

Isaiah 2:22 Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?

Lamentations 4:20 The breath of our nostrils, the anointed of the LORD, was taken in their pits, of whom we said, Under his shadow we shall live among the heathen.
Notice the location of the breath (“the breath of life”) being IN THE NOSTRILS?

Ezekiel 37:5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

What kind of “breath” is being spoken of in all of the preceding verses? - “The breath of life”. What is significant about the “breath” of God? – it is spirit, and it is life”! From hence does “the breath of life” proceed? - Almighty God – The giver of all life!

God giveth “breath”, and God giveth “spirit” to all the people on the earth (Job for example), and WHEN God does this they are made “alive”. So the question arises: WHEN does God do this? - At “conception”? During “gestation”? Or at birth? {It’s an honest, sincere, and respectful question – not “blasphemy” or “heresy”.}

According to the Holy Scriptures:

FACT #1. The breath of life comes from God.

FACT #2. The breath of life (from God) imparts “life” to men (women & boys, girls) and even animals {WHEN God “gives” it}.

FACT #3. The breath of life is IN the “nostrils” of men (women & boys, girls) and even animals.

{God wiped out every single man, woman and child on the earth (with the exception of Noah and his family) in the Biblical Flood [Genesis 6:17, 7:15, and 7:22]. That is, God destroyed - “all flesh, (man & animals) wherein is the breath of life.”}

FACT #4. A babe within the womb – DOES NOT BREATH!

FACT #5. A babe within the womb gets its “life” (oxygen) from its mother.

FACT #6. A babe does not BREATH on its own until it is “born” – at which time it has BREATH in its “nostrils” for the FIRST TIME!

Quote:
Job 12:10In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.

Psalms 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.

Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
God “breathes” onto all people in order for them to receive the “spirit” of man – so they might live. [James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.]

Quote:
John 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
God “breathes” onto all people in order for them to receive the “spirit” of man – so they might live. But God “breathes” on all those who receive the Lord Jesus Christ as Saviour, in order for them to receive the Holy Spirit and have their “spirit” quickened – so they will live eternally!

I believe that we receive our “spirit” (from God) at the moment of our birth (when we can {for the first time}, receive the “spirit” of God in our “nostrils”; when we can {for the first time}, “breathe” on our own, without our mother’s aid; when our bodies are formed and functional {with a Biblical heart, mind and conscience within}.

I believe that when we receive the “spirit” (from God) at birth that we become “a living soul”. I could be wrong (it wouldn’t be the first time! ), but if I am wrong, it won’t be because of a lack of “study” (on my part); or solely because of "personal opinion" – it will be because of a lack of “understanding” (on my part).

As you can see - I do not hold this conviction based on just one Scripture or because I am following a man. I have searched the Scriptures trying to determine the truth of this matter. If you believe differently, please post your conviction or belief about this issue and don’t forget to support your belief with the Scriptures – “opinions” without Scripture don’t impress me.

The King James Bible Page SwordSearcher Bible Software
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Old 10-28-2008, 03:31 AM
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This is something I would like to see, Bro. George - Biblical discussions (backed up with Scripture) concerning the truth of a matter.

In another thread, the possibility of "wrongly dividing" or misapplying Genesis 2:7 have been taken into consideration. Adam was created out of dust, while we are formed in the mother's womb. So Genesis 2:7 may not apply to all people.

But looking at the issue in another angle, it seems to have some answer my question: "When does a person being to have body AND BREATH?" (Post #3 http://av1611.com/forums/showthread.php?t=609 ) I have held that the soul cannot exist in the body before or after the "breath of life" (spirit) is given.

I would like to see what others have to say here.
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Old 10-28-2008, 07:13 AM
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George, biblestudent



Perhaps this was addressed on other thread(s); however, perhaps you could provide your "take" on:

(Bold my emphasis)

"And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren. For with God nothing shall be impossible. And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda;And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth. And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy. " Luke 1:31-44

Thanks,

In Christ,

John M. Whalen
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Old 10-28-2008, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George View Post

Philippians 2:16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.
1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

What kind of “word” is being spoken of? - “The word of life”. What kind of “words” are spoken? - The “words” of “eternal life”! What is significant about the “words" of God? – They are spirit, and they are life”! From hence do these “words” proceed? {“The WORD of Life” – the giver of all life!}

Now, notice the relationship between the “spirit” in man & “the breath of life”:

The above verses clearly demonstrate that, as far as receiving the “spirit” of man, (which is in all men) from God is concerned; Adam is NOT just an “isolated” case – “separate” from all the rest of mankind! God “breathes life” upon all the people of the earth and imparts to all men “spirit” and “life” - The question is: WHEN does He do it?
I can't agree. In the case of Adam, we are specifically told that God "breathed into" Adam. Nobody else in Scripture has this said of them. Eve, the second human, is not even created in the same way as Adam. We are all created in Adam's image, not God's. Only Adam was crated in God's image. We are created in Adam's and inherit his makeup from him.

Yes, God gives all living creatures the "breath of life" but of no one else is it ever said that god breathed it into them. This is not insignificant.

Quote:
Notice the location of the breath (“the breath of life”) being IN THE NOSTRILS?


I would not take this spiritual/soul issue and make it physical. Otherwise, folks without noses wouldn't have a breath of life (people do lose them -- I remember a woman who had acid poured on her face and her nose was completely gone and her sinus cavity totally exposed).

I guess what this comes down to is if you believe that God "breathes into" a creature when it is born and takes its first breath. Not a single verse in the Bible says that. The only man this is said of is Adam, who was not born!

Such a position seems odd to me. There are babies who are born months premature and would immediately die had our medical tools not been there to help them live. (If a baby has only "breathed" through a tube that doesn't go through the nostrils, is it not really a tripartite being?)

And then there is partial birth abortion. Yes, I know you know it is sin, but it seems odd that inducing labor a few weeks before due date and then severing the baby's spinal cord is not murder just because the spine is severed in the birth canal before the head is exposed. One more minute and it is murder?

Quote:
Ezekiel 37:5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
This is resurrection of someone who has died.

And this brings up an interesting issue. If "breathing" must be there for life, then it is possible for me to resurrect someone with CPR. I can in fact inspire new life with my own breath then, can't I? People "die" and have no breath for extended periods of time and yet can be reanimated with simple CPR. And yet the Bible shows resurrection as a miracle. So clearly these "unbreathing" people aren't actually dead. CPR is not a method of resurrection.

It is clear to me that the "breath of life" is not about "air."

Quote:
What kind of “breath” is being spoken of in all of the preceding verses? - “The breath of life”. What is significant about the “breath” of God? – it is spirit, and it is life”! From hence does “the breath of life” proceed? - Almighty God – The giver of all life!


Agreed. The question is if the "breath of life" is literally "air."

Quote:
God giveth “breath”, and God giveth “spirit” to all the people on the earth (Job for example), and WHEN God does this they are made “alive”.
This is true of resurrection. It is a difference. If an unborn child is not "alive," how can it be "slain?"

Jeremiah 20:17 Because he slew me not from the womb; or that my mother might have been my grave, and her womb to be always great with me.
(Note again that Jeremiah says "me" -- he certainly didn't think he didn't exist before birth.)

Quote:
So the question arises: WHEN does God do this? - At “conception”? During “gestation”? Or at birth? {It’s an honest, sincere, and respectful question – not “blasphemy” or “heresy”.}
Quote:

According to the Holy Scriptures:

FACT #1. The breath of life comes from God.

FACT #2. The breath of life (from God) imparts “life” to men (women & boys, girls) and even animals {WHEN God “gives” it}.

FACT #3. The breath of life is IN the “nostrils” of men (women & boys, girls) and even animals.
Fact #3 is a problem if you apply "in the nostrils" to the literal body. Many animals (wherein is life) do not have nostrils. Some people lose theirs and yet still "breath" and are clearly alive.

Lots of "creeping things" do not breath through nostrils nor do they even have lungs, but they are said to be alive (Ge 6:20).

Yes, God breathed the "breath of life" into Adam's nostrils. But we inherit Adam's nature through our mothers; we aren't formed in the same manner.

Quote:
FACT #4. A babe within the womb – DOES NOT BREATH!
It does not breathe air, but it has a circulatory system.

Quote:
FACT #5. A babe within the womb gets its “life” (oxygen) from its mother.
Oxygen = life?

If the baby is alive in any manner, its life comes from God as you have already shown.

Quote:
FACT #6. A babe does not BREATH on its own until it is “born” – at which time it
Quote:
has BREATH in its “nostrils” for the FIRST TIME!
Have you seen an underwater birth? It's a method of natural birth where the baby is delivered under water (in a bathtub). If your teaching is correct, we then have a child who is not actually alive even after it is born.

Quote:
God “breathes” onto all people in order for them to receive the “spirit” of man – so they might live. [James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.]
This isn't a literal "breathing into" like it was for Adam -- if God had come down and breathed into my son's nostrils when he was born (presumably after the meconium was vacuumed out of his lungs?) I think I would have noticed. The first breath my son took was the sin-filled atmosphere of this world.

The Bible said God "breathed into" Adam. No one else has this said of them. Everyone else has the "breath of air" "given" to them or "caused" to come "into" them.

I leave this post with this verse:
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Only someone who hasn't gone through a pregnancy would be able to say an unborn baby is a dead body. And as we have already seen, an unborn child can be "slain" -- so it must needs be alive to be "slain" so it is not a "dead body." So if a living body has a spirit, then an unborn child has a spirit.
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Old 10-28-2008, 12:36 PM
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Well done, George! I'm sure there'll be others that try to "nit-pick" it away.

By the way, "the exceptions prove the rule" - the best refutes posted is some obscurities which are rather pointless.
A living woman (B,S,S) looses her nose - so?

Water birth - cut the cord and leave the baby under water for twenty minutes and see what happens...???
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Old 10-28-2008, 02:08 PM
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Aloha Brandon,

Excellent response!

Just for clarification:

I do not believe that "The Breath of Life" is "physical" (air or otherwise). However, having stated that - there is something about the "air" that makes all life on earth possible. {Ours is the only known Planet in the Universe with an "atmosphere" amenable to "life", as we know it}

I do believe that "The Breath of Life" is "spiritual" (when one receives the "spirit" which is in all men).

I believe that "The Breath of The Almighty" is the Holy Spirit. [John 20:22; Acts 2:2]

Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life. Notice: it is the Holy Spirit that makes us and it is His "breathe" {The Holy Spirit} that has given us "life" - when He imparts our "spirit" (our life) unto us with "the breath of life".

"The breath of life" is imparted to us through "The breath of the Almighty". They are not the same. The question still remains: do we receive it at "conception" (by inheritance from Adam?) or at birth?

The fact that some people may "lose" their noses doesn't negate the basic premise. The basic rule still stands - regardless of the exception.

Can you name an animal that breathes air that doesn't have nostrils? I cannot think of any - but there may be some.

An unborn child is not "dead" or considered a "non-entity" (as if it didn't exist). An unborn child within the womb is a "gift" from God - However, he/she is dependent upon the mother for life until he/she is born (their "life" is inextricably linked to the mother's life and they have no "life", for very long, apart from her), and has "life" within himself/herself. The question is: Does he/she possess a "spirit" and correspondingly - a soul?

The underwater "birth" does not negate the teaching. The baby has to come out of the water (real soon) or it will die - if it can't BREATH!

You stated:
Quote:
"The Bible said God "breathed into" Adam. No one else has this said of them. Everyone else has the "breath of air" "given" to them or "caused" to come "into" them."
However, I never said "the breath of AIR" - I think that I was very careful to always say "the breath of LIFE", since I do not believe that "air" and "life" are the same.

Your last point is the most difficult to answer, and was very well put!

Here is my "feeble attempt" to answer it.
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

I believe that the "body" spoken of here is a "body" that has already been born (at some time) - not an unborn child.

As I have said: An unborn child's "life" is inextricably linked to the mother's "life" - without the mother's "life" a babe within the womb dies. Why is that? I believe it is because, although they are alive within the womb, that "life" is different than ours, since it is inextricably linked to the mother, and is totally dependent upon the mother to sustain his or her life (which we are not - we are dependent upon God to sustain us, and so is the mother also).

I have stated elsewhere that upon reviewing the nearly 500 verses with the word soul (souls) in them, I cannot find a single verse in reference to an unborn child - every place the word soul (souls) occurs it is speaking about a person (persons), already born, and which is living and breathing upon the earth (outside of the womb). and which possess a spirit, heart, mind, and conscience. Of course that doesn't preclude the possibility of of an unborn child possessing a spirit and a soul, but you would think that out of nearly 500 verses we could find at least one verse that would indicate that they do.

My wife has given birth to seven children (two in the car - on the way to the hospital! ) over a period of 20 years. She has had two "miscarriages" in the 47 years of our marriage. We would have had more children (we wanted more children), but I felt that having another child might endanger her health and/or life and correspondingly the health and/or life of the child, so we decided that 7 was enough (since 7 is a "perfect" number).

We now have 17 grandchildren and 3 great-grandchildren. Just because I hold this belief about the spirit and soul has not diminished my love for my children (within the womb or out). My belief has not diminished the awe and wonder of an unborn child, or his/her value or worth.

My belief has not diminished the disdain that I have for abortion. Abortion is a heinous crime! Abortion is a grievous sin! Abortion is an affront to Almighty God and His gifts. As a means of "birth control", abortion is a despicable practice - against God and nature. I do not know if it is "murder", it could very well be.

Sin is sin. Murder, Rape, Child Molesting, Incest, Sodomy (Homosexualism, Lesbianism), etc. are at the top of my list of "Sins". I consider abortion to be right up there in the top three or four.

Like I have said before: I don't have all the answers, and I could be wrong about this issue. I do know one thing though - this issue is far more "complex" than some people make it out to be, and I have sought answers from the Holy Scriptures and not from men, or my own private opinions.
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Old 10-28-2008, 02:40 PM
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Can you name an animal that breathes air that doesn't have nostrils?
Are fish alive? Do they breathe with their nostrils? How about crustaceans?
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Old 10-28-2008, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by pbiwolski View Post
Well done, George! I'm sure there'll be others that try to "nit-pick" it away.
Or, some could do as I have done, and explained why they believe otherwise. I ended my post with Scripture.
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Old 10-28-2008, 04:33 PM
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I've "copied" some recent, but I think relevant observations I made on separate thread with some additional modifications.

Brother George, you made an observation on another thread titled, "Hall of Shame" on post #19 which motivated me to do some searches and study. You wrote in part:

Quote:
Here is something for you to check out:

Find me one verse out of the approximately 498 verses on and about the soul, where it demonstrates that a babe within a womb possesses a soul (just one). Before I undertook this Post I reviewed all 498 verses with the word soul (souls) in them (thanks to SwordSearcher!) - Every place where the word soul (or souls) shows up in the Bible is always referring to someone who has already been born and is alive and existing in the flesh {And who, by the way, also possesses a “spirit”, a heart, a mind, and a conscience}. I cannot find a single verse where the word soul is applied to an unborn child {Check it out. Run the verses, don’t take my word for it.}

IF the Bible is its own best dictionary, then HOW the word soul (souls) is used (and WHAT the word soul (souls) describes) should define what a soul is – shouldn’t it? Then why isn’t there one verse in the entire Bible where the word “soul” is used to describe a baby within the womb?
Like you, I could not find a single verse where the word "soul" is directly applied to an unborn child. My search of the scriptures did, however, raise some questions for us to consider. Just digging deeper in the word! Here is what I discovered:

• No one (I don’t believe) has said a child in the womb is not alive, so that's certainly not the issue. Scripture does, however, clarify and seem to teach that the soul is directly related to, and associated with life. No life, no soul. Of course, depending on your current view, you will either say this refers to life outside the womb, or includes life in the womb. But it's worth mentioning, if the mother dies, so does the child in her womb. Life ends.

Genesis 35:18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin. Notice the word says her "soul" was departing, not her breath. Here it seems to associated the soul with life.

This passage could support the idea that the soul is directly associated with "breathing air" outside the womb. But it seems to also clearly identify the soul with life itself.

1 Kings 17:17-23 And it came to pass after these things, that the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, fell sick; and his sickness was so sore, that there was no breath left in him. [Clearly, no breath meant no heart beat, no life.] And she said unto Elijah, What have I to do with thee, O thou man of God? art thou come unto me to call my sin to remembrance, and to slay my son? And he said unto her, Give me thy son. And he took him out of her bosom, and carried him up into a loft, where he abode, and laid him upon his own bed. And he cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, hast thou also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying her son? And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again. And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived. And Elijah took the child, and brought him down out of the chamber into the house, and delivered him unto his mother: and Elijah said, See, thy son liveth.

Here the soul of humankind is associated with both "life" and "breath." We conclude. No breath, no life. No life, no breath. No breath and no life, no soul.

Job 12:10 In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.

My rhetorical question is this. Is life specifically limited to only the life outside the womb? Or, is it is also related to the "life" of a child who is still in the womb? If the soul is indeed related to life, then does a "living baby" in the womb have a soul?

• Scripture also identifies the soul as existing after physical life has ceased. The soul does not cease to exist when life is over.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Since in scripture the soul is not limited to “physical life,” can we can conclude that the soul does indeed exist even though “physical life” has stopped. If the "soul" does indeed exist after physical death, how could we come to a logical conclusion that a baby who is still in the womb, who has "life in them," does not possess a soul?

• We all understand the doctrine that God does not possess a "soul" in the same way we do, that goes without saying. We all remember the Lord Jesus saying, in John 4:24, “God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” However, scripture seems to also clearly identify God as having a soul.

Jeremiah 5:9 Shall I not visit for these things? saith the LORD: and shall not my soul be avenged on such a nation as this?

Jeremiah 32:41 Yea, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will plant them in this land assuredly with my whole heart and with my whole soul.

My observation and question is this. Since humankind is created in God’s own image*, referring to the fact humankind is also tripartite, composed of three parts, (spirit, soul, body), when does a human who is in the image of God, actually become complete? While in the womb or out of the womb?

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*Note: to Brother Brandon, I believe that some of the aspects of God’s own image (mind, intellect, will, heart, desire) which were created in Adam, are also given to us through Adam, and that these aspects of God’s own image are in us through Adam. I am not suggesting our creation is like Adam's, only that through Adam we possess certain aspects of God's own image.
In conclusion, concerning a comment made by Brother George on another thread, and I quote, "The one issue is: WHEN DOES THE SOUL BEGIN? {An issue that has been argued and debated by "theologians" and genuine Bible believers for centuries - and never "settled" I might add..." I'll agree with a hearty, amen!
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Old 10-28-2008, 04:43 PM
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Diligent Diligent is offline
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Originally Posted by George View Post


Can you name an animal that breathes air that doesn't have nostrils? I cannot think of any - but there may be some.


Locusts (creeping things wherein is the breath of life, Ge 6) require oxygen but do not have lungs. But I don't mean to make my point with a bunch of what-ifs. I am simply trying to point out that the "breath of life" is not about the physical act of breathing.

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An unborn child is not "dead" or considered a "non-entity" (as if it didn't exist).
Is an unborn child a body? If it is, it is either alive (with spirit) or dead (without spirit). If it is not a body, why was John specifically identified as the one to rejoice in his mother's womb?

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An unborn child within the womb is a "gift" from God - However, he/she is dependent upon the mother for life until he/she is born (their "life" is inextricably linked to the mother's life and they have no "life", for very long, apart from her), and has "life" within himself/herself. The question is: Does he/she possess a "spirit" and correspondingly - a soul?
I still can't accept those assumptions. A child has it's own blood and can often have blood incompatible with its mother's blood. Since the "life of the flesh is in the blood" the child's flesh has it's own life. Since a body that is alive has a spirit, the child has a spirit. Yes, a child is dependent upon its mother, but this is irrelevant. Our medical science is constantly moving "viability" closer and closer to conception, so we can't tie anything having to do with life to viability, because what life is isn't in our hands.

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The underwater "birth" does not negate the teaching. The baby has to come out of the water (real soon) or it will die - if it can't BREATH!
How can it die if it is not alive? Again, the body without the spirit is dead. If it does not have a spirit, how is it alive?

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You stated:
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However, I never said "the breath of AIR" -
Typo. I meant "breath of life."

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Here is my "feeble attempt" to answer it.
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

I believe that the "body" spoken of here is a "body" that has already been born (at some time) - not an unborn child.
Interesting distinction -- I can't see how this can be made. The Bible does not distinguish between an "unborn child" and a "child." It simply calls a pregnant woman "with child."
2 Samuel 11:5 And the woman conceived, and sent and told David, and said, I am with child.
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As I have said: An unborn child's "life" is inextricably linked to the mother's "life" -
Surrogate mothers can accept a conceived child from a biological mother. This is called embryo adoption. The womb is a place where God does his work and the child develops. The mother and child do not share blood. The "life of the flesh is in the blood." The child's flesh life is distinct and separate from its mother's.

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without the mother's "life" a babe within the womb dies.
Not always. A mother can die and a child can be medically delivered after the mother has already died. That time is certainly short, but there it is.

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Why is that? I believe it is because, although they are alive within the womb, that "life" is different than ours, since it is inextricably linked to the mother, and is totally dependent upon the mother to sustain his or her life (which we are not - we are dependent upon God to sustain us, and so is the mother also).
Except that even after birth the child is totally dependent on others for its care. A newborn baby will die shortly thereafter if not fed and cared for. Being dependent upon another for sustaining the body does not change its status as a living person.

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I have stated elsewhere that upon reviewing the nearly 500 verses with the word soul (souls) in them, I cannot find a single verse in reference to an unborn child - every place the word soul (souls) occurs it is speaking about a person (persons), already born, and which is living and breathing upon the earth (outside of the womb).
And I can find none that suggest an unborn child (just "child" in the Bible) lacks a living soul.

In fact, given Jeremiah and David's comments about conception, I think that the obvious default position is that a conceived child is a child in Adam's image (tripartite).

Succinctly:

1. An individual body's "life" is in its blood:
Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood:
2. A child's blood is different than its mothers. This is medical fact. My wife has a different blood type than her mother did.

3. An unborn child can be "slain" (killed):
Jeremiah 20:17 Because he slew me not from the womb; or that my mother might have been my grave, and her womb to be always great with me.

(Slaying takes a life: 2 Samuel 14:7 "for the life of his brother whom he slew")

An unborn child is therefor "alive."
4. Since a body without a spirit is dead, an unborn baby can not lack a spirit, since its body is living.
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
5. We are not expected to be able to understand how a conceived child/babe/infant/son (all words the Bible uses to describe the unborn) can hold a soul and spirit and all of that:
Ecclesiastes 11:5 As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all.
so, 6. I am content to just accept this without further explanation.

Further, the Bible only calls the unborn "children" or "babes" or "infants." It is not for us to split these words into subclasses. The Bible says children have souls (1Ki 17:22). Given all of the above, I can see no cause to say that the "child" in the womb is non-tripartite.

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Like I have said before: I don't have all the answers, and I could be wrong about this issue. I do know one thing though - this issue is far more "complex" than some people make it out to be, and I have sought answers from the Holy Scriptures and not from men, or my own private opinions.
And, I hope that my explanation above shows I am basing my own understanding on Scripture and not other men's opinions as well.
 

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