Bible Versions Questions and discussion about the Bible version issue.

 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 07-19-2008, 11:17 PM
Connie
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Straining at gnats or straining out gnats

Since this is a thread questioning translation, can somebody explain to me why the KJB has "strain at a gnat" in Matthew 23:24, when the Geneva, the Tyndale and the Bishop's Bibles all have "strain out a gnat," AND considering the fact that the Pharisees STILL strain their food (soup?) and drink to avoid the possibility of eating a gnat in some circumstance where it is forbidden to eat meat.
The King James Bible Page SwordSearcher Bible Software
  #22  
Old 07-20-2008, 12:22 AM
stephanos's Avatar
stephanos stephanos is offline
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Wenatchee WA
Posts: 885
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Connie View Post
Since this is a thread questioning translation, can somebody explain to me why the KJB has "strain at a gnat" in Matthew 23:24, when the Geneva, the Tyndale and the Bishop's Bibles all have "strain out a gnat," AND considering the fact that the Pharisees STILL strain their food (soup?) and drink to avoid the possibility of eating a gnat in some circumstance where it is forbidden to eat meat.
Perhaps either this is a misprint (this is what I've read, but I would doubt it) or the translators thought that this meant "straining at the possibility of eating a gnat, while you're swallowing a camel". This of course is just my guess.

Good question though.

Much Love in Christ,
Stephen
  #23  
Old 07-20-2008, 01:03 AM
chette777's Avatar
chette777 chette777 is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Puerto Princesa City, Palawan Philippines
Posts: 1,431
Default

Keeping the context of Matthew 28:19, 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: Mt 10:5-12 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat. And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence. And when ye come into an house, salute it. also read its cross reference in Luke chapter Nine and go through your four gosples and list out all things Christ commanded. alll of these would have to be taught.

Tell me how would you apply that today?

when you go into the mission field do you provide money in your purse or not?

do you not take extra clothing?

do you only go to Jews?

Are you healing the sick, raising the dead and casting out devils?

and don't forget the Sermon on the mount teaching, the Olivet Discourse teachings. many things Jesus taught with command.

What are the all things Jesus commanded that he would have US teach them to observe? Maybe he is not speaking to US? there is an immediate interpretation which is the literal interpretation.

Jesus taught alot of things and commanded many. he spoke to very few Gentiles directly. Manly the lost sheep of Israel.

Context of the four Gospels would be needed in order to really be able to know what to teach in the all nations he is sending the Apotles

Remeber too, at the time Christ commanded his remaining 11 Apostles and over 500 of his diciples (the number Paul said were witnesses of the resurrection), the Gospel of Grace had not been revealed, nor the One Spirit, One Body, One Baptism, nor the Jew and Gentile in one body, nor the Body of Christ, nor the Holy Spirit dwelling in you. none of these things were revealed yet.

So what is it Jesus is telling the his disciples to teach? who is he telling them to teach? Why is he telling them to teach? answer these in context and you shall see those who would change Matthew 28, 18-20 are interpreting it with a pretextual conclusion.

I will not spoon feed you the answers to the questions raised and why they would change the meaning of Matthew28, you will need to Study to show yourself approved rightly dividing the word of truth.

Last edited by chette777; 07-20-2008 at 01:15 AM.
  #24  
Old 07-20-2008, 01:05 AM
bibleprotector's Avatar
bibleprotector bibleprotector is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 587
Default

If strain "at" is a misprint, then every normal KJB is wrong! But we know that this usage means to use a strainer to take any gnats out of their drink. Strain here does not mean being strenuous. However, the meaning is that one that is concerned with the small things, yet overlooking the big things does so to their own hurt.

Here is an article: http://www.geocities.com/brandplucked/strain.html
  #25  
Old 07-20-2008, 02:53 AM
Connie
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Thanks for the answers.

I hadn't seen any discussion of this, only recently recognized the problem for that matter. I should have realized that it would have been discussed quite a bit somewhere. I merely looked up the older translations (in Swordsearcher) to find that they all say "out," and to my mind that makes it a misprint in the KJB. There were quite a few such mistakes in the original 1611 that were corrected over time, weren't there? Why couldn't it be that this is just one that escaped? After a while, the wording "strain at" was so accepted that changing it might not even have occurred to anyone -- ??? But since the older translations the KJB translators made use of have "out" and that reflects the practice of the Pharisees more accurately, the other explanations such as Will Kinney gives aren't very convincing.

Well, "at" is going to go on that list I said I'd make of changes I think should be made in the KJB, on the thread about the tiny little updatings. But since such an idea is so unpopular here, perhaps I should just keep all such thoughts to myself anyway.

(It doesn't make me happy to find things I think need changing in the KJB, but at the same time I don't think it is a disaster if some happen to exist, as so many here think. The main thing that needs emphasizing in this whole Bible versions discussion is how bad and deceitful the new translations are and how they interfere with the life of the church, and all this worry about changing a few words in the KJB deflects the discussion from what's really most important. In my opinion.)

Last edited by Connie; 07-20-2008 at 03:03 AM.
  #26  
Old 07-20-2008, 03:27 AM
bibleprotector's Avatar
bibleprotector bibleprotector is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 587
Default

The words “strain at a gnat” in Matthew 23:24c is said by some modernists to be an error made in 1611 that has been perpetuated in all subsequent editions. Their preferred wording is “strain out a gnat”, as Tyndale, Coverdale and the Geneva had. “To strain at ... This use is due to misunderstanding of the phrase ‘strain at a gnat’ in Matt. xxiii. 24. It has been asserted that ‘straine at’ in the Bible of 1611 is a misprint for ‘straine out’, the rendering of earlier versions ... But quots. 1583 and 1594 show that the translators of 1611 simply adopted a rendering that had already obtained currency. It was not a mistranslation, the meaning intended being ‘which strain the liquor if they find a gnat in it’. The phrase, however, was early misapprehended (perh. already by Shaks. in quot. 1609), the verb being supposed to mean ‘to make violent effort’ ... 1583 GREENE ... straining at a gnat ... 1594 J. KING ... strayning at gnats ... 1609 SHAKS. ... strain ... at the position.” (OED). Thus, straining at a gnat describes the action of using a filter to capture insects while pouring out wine, and not that the strainer is immediately withdrawn from the wine once something has been caught, since no one ordinary stops filtering until the wine ceases from being poured. This example and explanation should be indicative of all such objections that can be brought up.
  #27  
Old 07-20-2008, 04:11 AM
Connie
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

So are you saying that since English speakers misread it (not grasping the reference to the practice of the Pharisees in their obsession to avoid any taint of unclean meat in their diet), that their misuse of the term in the sense of exertion had become so common that the KJB translators simply incorporated that misuse?

You seem to be saying that, but also you seem to be using an argument Will Kinney also used, that I don't understand:

Quote:
Thus, straining at a gnat describes the action of using a filter to capture insects while pouring out wine, and not that the strainer is immediately withdrawn from the wine once something has been caught, since no one ordinary stops filtering until the wine ceases from being poured. This example and explanation should be indicative of all such objections that can be brought up.
This makes no sense to me, I'm afraid. Straining OUT gnats also describes using a filter to capture insects, and I see no implication in either case that the strainer is withdrawn once something has been caught.

I can see that perhaps the translators incorporated a common misuse of the term, but I also think that misuse detracts from the meaning Jesus intended so that it ought to be corrected.
  #28  
Old 07-20-2008, 05:06 AM
bibleprotector's Avatar
bibleprotector bibleprotector is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 587
Default

Quote:
So are you saying that since English speakers misread it (not grasping the reference to the practice of the Pharisees in their obsession to avoid any taint of unclean meat in their diet), that their misuse of the term in the sense of exertion had become so common that the KJB translators simply incorporated that misuse?
No, that the proper use, namely, to strain at the gnat to take it out, was already so used in 1583 and 1594, and common enough that it came to be used rather than "strain out" which was seen in the Bishops' Bible, etc.

Quote:
You seem to be saying that, but also you seem to be using an argument Will Kinney also used, that I don't understand:

Thus, straining at a gnat describes the action of using a filter to capture insects while pouring out wine, and not that the strainer is immediately withdrawn from the wine once something has been caught, since no one ordinary stops filtering until the wine ceases from being poured. This example and explanation should be indicative of all such objections that can be brought up.

This makes no sense to me, I'm afraid. Straining OUT gnats also describes using a filter to capture insects, and I see no implication in either case that the strainer is withdrawn once something has been caught.
The word "strain" is used, according to the Oxford English Dictionary: "To take out a liquid (something) by straining, ... to strain out a gnat ... strain a gnat". The particular action being described is not emphasising that the gnat goes out, but either: that the strainer was employed at it, that is, to get at it; or, that the word "at" meant "at the time", that is, when a gnat was found, at that time, it was strained.

"Out" would be inaccurate, slightly wrong information.

Quote:
I can see that perhaps the translators incorporated a common misuse of the term, but I also think that misuse detracts from the meaning Jesus intended so that it ought to be corrected.
The translators were not misusing the term, even as the Elizabethans Greene and J. King were not misusing the term. The term was misunderstood since that time, perhaps already by Shakespeare in 1609. Moreover, since it is the very accurate sense, "at" not "out", why would we turn Jesus' speech to something less fitting, or think that the KJB needs to be "corrected"?
  #29  
Old 07-20-2008, 10:37 AM
Connie
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I think that reasoning is very strained myself.

It's ungrammatical to use it in the sense you claim it is intended. And since it is commonly misunderstood in the sense of exertion rather than the action of using a strainer, whether successfully or not, that suggests that the average English reader either then or later did not recognize it as a familiar expression meaning what you say it means, which, if they did, might justify its grammatical oddness.

As I understand it the Greek says "out" but I'll say no more.

Last edited by Connie; 07-20-2008 at 10:49 AM.
  #30  
Old 07-20-2008, 07:51 PM
chette777's Avatar
chette777 chette777 is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Puerto Princesa City, Palawan Philippines
Posts: 1,431
Default

I thought we were discussing a better translation of Matthew 28:19, 20 not strained nats.

and comon people knew exactly what Jesus meant when he said that anyway.
 

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

The King James Bible Page SwordSearcher Bible Software

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:45 AM.

Powered by vBulletin®, Copyright vBulletin Solutions Inc.

Website © AV1611.Com.
Posts represent only the opinions of users of this forum and do not necessarily represent the opinions of the webmaster.

Software for Believing Bible Study

 
Contact Us AV1611.Com