Bible Versions Questions and discussion about the Bible version issue.

 
 
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  #11  
Old 05-15-2008, 09:31 AM
Connie
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I'm glad to see this spelled out. I'm clearly a CLASS TWO KJB-onlier. But with a few little differences.

I consider a translation from the Textus Receptus into any language that's done well by the right people to be as good as inspired. I consider "the right people" to be born-again Bible believers who do their work with prayer, and in the fear of God, and under some kind of general church authority. Translation is an art that must be done under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I don't think a translation's inspiration or authenticity depends on particular wording, simply because the target language changes over time, and I wouldn't use the term "altered" for this, because as long as the modernized word expresses for modern people what the old word did for the earlier generation I consider them equivalent so that the translation maintains its integrity and perfection through such changes.

So I'd word the following a bit differently:

Quote:
Inspiration: The Autographs are 100% infallible, inspired and perfect.
Yes.

Quote:
Preservation: Overall the Word of God is preserved through time, specifically in the King James Bible.

The KJB text: The KJB text is correct.
I'd say God preserves His word absolutely reliably through any translation that has been done from the right texts (the TR) by the right people in the right spirit, and that certainly describes the KJB.

Quote:
The text in English: The Bible text is fully presented in English.

The KJB translation: Correct, but it is impossible to translate 100%, even though what it does translate is indeed valid.
I'd state this differently. You can never get a word-for-word equivalence between two different languages but you can get "100%" equivalence in meaning so that it's not merely "valid" but "perfect."

Quote:
The KJB language/style: Very good, but if the English language changes, alterations on the current English of the KJB may be necessary.
I would call the KJB "perfect" not just "very good" because the kinds of "alterations" that are necessary from time to time do not or should not change the substance (meaning) of the text, OR even the style of it -- again, if done right by the right people. Changes should be as minimal as possible. We don't need to change the thees and thous and they are necessary to the meaning, though I don't see a reason to retain the -eth endings. Beyond that, there are some, not many, archaic words that need to be updated. Again, in the right spirit by the right people, in the fear of God and changing as little as necessary in the text.

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The perfection of the KJB: The KJB is faithful and reliable, and will never lead anyone astray.

Other versions: No other present English versions are acceptable.
I'm happy to call the KJB "perfect" even with the need for minimal updating from time to time, and the other English versions are unacceptable because they are based on the wrong texts and have been done by the wrong people in the wrong spirit.

Quote:
Other languages: The Word of God can continue to be translated into other languages if they are done from the basis of the TR or from the KJB.
The Word of God MUST be translated into other languages, and MUST be done from the TR, and the KJB should be consulted as the most excellent model.
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  #12  
Old 05-15-2008, 09:50 AM
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chaplainles chaplainles is offline
 
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Why are we using names that KJV critics, Bible Correctors and assorted Alexandrian and Nicolaitan 'goons' use to attack malign and castigate Bible Believers!!!!!
These terms are used much in the same way as 'Ruckmanite' is bandied about to shame Bible Believers into silence and withdraw from the field of Battle.

Using the K.I.S.S. Principle the only name I wish to be associated with is BIBLE BELIEVER.. period. I refuse any other name that the 'brethren' wish to apply...

By Bible Believer I mean someone who believes..

1. God kept His promise to preserve His Inspired word Psalms 12:6-7; Prov. 30:5-6 etc..

2. That Inspired Preserved Word is found in the English Authorised King James Version 1611 for English speaking people.

3. That the AV KJV 1611 not only contains the Word of God but the very words of God as He intends us to have believe and use.

4. That the AV KJV 1611 is the Sole & Final Authority for Bible Believers in all matters of Faith and Practice.

5. That the AV KJV 1611 follows both Hebrew/Greek sentence structure in English, hence no need to learn those languages to understand the 'Book'.

6. That the AV KJV 1611 is the Seventh and Final purified Bible for all time that God has demonstrated in History as to be what it says it is!! So much so it is teh standard by which all other per-versions measure themselves.

7. That God Supernatural oversaw the making of the AV KJV 1611 in the selection and scholarship of the Translators. Never before or since has such Scholarship been gathered.

I guess by now some folks are stripping gears and having all kinds of fits and tantrums, but it is the Bible that I was saved through, I Preach Teach & Believe. It is Gods Sword that needs to be USED rather than defended!!! Heb.4:12
  #13  
Old 05-15-2008, 11:12 AM
Brother Mike
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Originally Posted by chaplainles View Post
It is Gods Sword that needs to be USED rather than defended!!! Heb.4:12

I think that sums it up perfectly.
  #14  
Old 05-15-2008, 12:34 PM
Beth
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Thumbs up I'm a Bible Believer!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by chaplainles View Post

I guess by now some folks are stripping gears and having all kinds of fits and tantrums, but it is the Bible that I was saved through, I Preach Teach & Believe. It is Gods Sword that needs to be USED rather than defended!!! Heb.4:12
Not me!! I agree, you have summed it up nicely. I like it kept simple and especially since I can be stupid at times. K.I.S.S.!! I like that!

OK, from now on call me a Bible Believer. I don't have to worry about whether I am just a KJVO or a pure KJVO.
  #15  
Old 05-15-2008, 02:13 PM
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chaplainles > Post #12

Amen to everything you have said brother. The "pseudo-intellectuals" amongst us complicate things. (Too much "schooling" perhaps?).

It boils down to: Do we have God's word in the world or don't we? If someone doesn't know where it is they had better look for it. And if they are fortunate to find it they had better believe it. And if they believe it they had better obey it and follow it.

Do all of these "gnat-strainers" have a FINAL AUTHORITY which dictates to them all that they are to believe? (I strongly doubt it!) Or do they construct and "set up" "multiple authorities" (TR, Traditional Text, Majority Text, Strong's, all the "Lexicons", a church, a school, a man - or men, etc., etc., etc.) so that they can "CHOOSE" between them (their "authorities") as to which they are going to follow and obey.

Keep em coming brother - it is sometimes wearisome dealing with all of the "flotsam" and "jetsam" spewing forth from the "brethren".
  #16  
Old 05-15-2008, 03:46 PM
Beth
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Originally Posted by George View Post
Do all of these "gnat-strainers" have a FINAL AUTHORITY which dictates to them all that they are to believe? (I strongly doubt it!) Or do they construct and "set up" "multiple authorities" (TR, Traditional Text, Majority Text, Strong's, all the "Lexicons", a church, a school, a man - or men, etc., etc., etc.) so that they can "CHOOSE" between them (their "authorities") as to which they are going to follow and obey.

Keep em coming brother - it is sometimes wearisome dealing with all of the "flotsam" and "jetsam" spewing forth from the "brethren".
I'm wondering just how many you are calling gnat strainers today. In Christian love I ask you as well to search your heart to make sure that you are not spewing forth to your brethren.

What I am seeing from some of those you call gnat strainers is that they are doing their best to back up their statements in a respectful way. We should be able to discuss differences respectfully. disagreeing with someone is not spewing as long as we can be respectful.
  #17  
Old 05-15-2008, 09:32 PM
Truth4Today
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Thumbs up Right On!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth View Post
I'm wondering just how many you are calling gnat strainers today. In Christian love I ask you as well to search your heart to make sure that you are not spewing forth to your brethren.

What I am seeing from some of those you call gnat strainers is that they are doing their best to back up their statements in a respectful way. We should be able to discuss differences respectfully. disagreeing with someone is not spewing as long as we can be respectful.
Amen sister! It is so refreshing to read post’s from those who possess a sound mind and a commonsense eye of understanding. You have far more decrement that you give yourself.


__________________________________

- “One accurate measurement is worth more than a thousand expert opinions”

- “...this is the Word of God; come, search, ye critics, and find a flaw; examine it, from its Genesis to its Revelation, and find an error... This is the book untainted by any error; but is pure, unalloyed, perfect truth. Why? Because God wrote it. Ah! charge God with error if you please; tell him that his book is not what it ought to be. I have heard men, with prudish and mock-modesty, who would like to alter the Bible; and (I almost blush to say it) I have heard ministers alter God's Bible, because they were afraid of it... Pity they were not born when God lived far—far back that they might have taught God how to write.” Charles Haddon Spurgeon (Spurgeon's Sermons Volume 1: Sermon II p. 31)

- “If, therefore, any do complain that I have sometimes hit my opponents rather hard, I take leave to point out that 'to everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the sun' : 'a time to embrace, and a time to be far from embracing' : a time for speaking smoothly, and a time for speaking sharply. And that when the words of Inspiration are seriously imperilled, as now they are, it is scarcely possible for one who is determined effectually to preserve the Deposit in its integrity, to hit either too straight or too hard.” Dean John William Burgon (The Revision Revised. pp. vii-viii)
  #18  
Old 05-16-2008, 12:13 AM
Truth4Today
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Arrow ~Where I Stand, It Is Windy~

As of yet, I have not revealed where in particular, I stand within the parameters I have defined. The reasons for this are simple: 1.) My view is irrelevant to the issue just as long as I am within the parameters; 2.) Everyone must decide for themselves where within the parameters they are going to stand, my position should not influence anyone; 3.) The issue of using the KJV as the standard Bible (i.e. the parameters as a whole) is really what is at stake, not the trifles of those who do use it as the standard Bible (i.e. each element within the parameters {who is really straining at gnats?}).

You, must understand that what is important to me is the position of the King James Only as a whole. Yes, I could easily argue the position of Gale Riplinger as revealed in her books New Age Bible Versions; In Awe Of They Word; Which Bible Is God’s Word?; and The Language Of The King James Bible. Sure I could just as easily delineate Samuel C. Gipp’s position as revealed in his books An Understandable History of the Bible ; and The Answer Book . No doubt I could even put forth the basics of Peter S. Ruckman’s position (The Christian’s Handbook Of Biblical Scholarship pp. 37-38):

Quote:
I profess to believe that the AV, that I hold in my hand and from which I preach, is the word of God, containing the words God wants me to have, and that it has been preserved by His grace without proven error.
Of course, Ruckman could be JOKING here, I can’t really tell…

I could present the positions of a hundred men. But what does all that mean? Really, it means very little. What is important is how we define what a King James Only is. What are the confines in which it rest. The US has one Army, but many facets to that Army. I should know for I joined in 1999, served over in Iraq in Iraqi Freedom II; and just ETS back in September of last year. Defining what King James Only is, is the real issue today!

However, there are some of you who are eager to know where I stand. Tonight is your lucky night, because, I feel in the mood to tell you. Please permit me to quote something I have written in regard to my take on this issue:


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The Indispensable Book

The word “indispensable” expresses the idea that what ever is being spoken of is not subject to being set aside or neglected. It is absolutely necessary or requisite, just as air is necessary for one to live. The necessity and indispensability of the Bible is perfectly emphasized by our Lord when He said, “...man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God” (Luke 4:4; recorded in Matt. 4:4 also). He was quoting Deuteronomy 8:3 which underscores man’s need for the Word in order to live. Man cannot truly live without the very word, and every word at that, of God. Job illustrates the recognition of this need, “Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary [food].” (Job. 23:12). We are told that the Word is more precious than gold and that it is sweeter than honey (Ps. 19:9-10; 119:103, 127). Moreover, the testimony of Scripture is that the Bible is sufficient for salvation (Ps. 19:7; Rom. 1:16), without which there is no salvation (1Pet. 1:23; Rom. 10:13-17). It is for these reasons and more that we consider God’s word as indispensable.

Since, God breathed and authored the Bible and because He is not a man that He should lie (Num. 23:19) nor can He lie (Titus 1:2), then the Bible is infallible and inerrant. Hence, the Bible is historically, scientifically and spiritually true and accurate (Ps. 119:160; John 7:17). This being the case, we believe the Bible is the only authority in all matters of faith, life, practice, and anything else it may touch thereupon for the believer. It is indispensable, hence, it is to be believed (John 2:22), received (1Thess. 1:6; 2:13; James 1:21), read (Deut. 17:18-19; Rev. 1:2), spoken (Ps. 119:46, 172), taught (Deut. 6:7-8), preached (2Tim. 4:2), sung (Ps. 119:54; Colo. 3:16), loved (Ps. 119:127), obeyed (Deut. 11:27; 29:9 Luke 8:21; 11:28; James 1:22-25), and meditated on (Josh 1:8; Ps. 1:2; 119:148) as the Word of God.

I believe that the Traditional Hebrew Messoretic Old Testament and the Traditional Greek Textus Receptus New Testament text to be the providently preserved word of God faithfully handed down from the first through the ages which has been providently kept intact in the Biblical English of the King James Authorized Bible.

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There, you have my position dealing with the King James Only. To further clarify, I do not think that the English can correct the Greek, nor do I hold to the idea that the Greek can correct the English. I DO hold to the idea that the English of the King James Authorized Bible is an accurate, faithful, and correct reproduction of God sanctioned Greek and Hebrew texts so that we can say that it is translationally without error.

At this point I want to thank everyone’s input; including those who hate… oops I mean who dislike me.

For my next post ladies and gentlemen I shall post why I think their should be a need for a standard.

__________________________________

- “One accurate measurement is worth more than a thousand expert opinions”

- “...this is the Word of God; come, search, ye critics, and find a flaw; examine it, from its Genesis to its Revelation, and find an error... This is the book untainted by any error; but is pure, unalloyed, perfect truth. Why? Because God wrote it. Ah! charge God with error if you please; tell him that his book is not what it ought to be. I have heard men, with prudish and mock-modesty, who would like to alter the Bible; and (I almost blush to say it) I have heard ministers alter God's Bible, because they were afraid of it... Pity they were not born when God lived far—far back that they might have taught God how to write.” Charles Haddon Spurgeon (Spurgeon's Sermons Volume 1: Sermon II p. 31)

- “If, therefore, any do complain that I have sometimes hit my opponents rather hard, I take leave to point out that 'to everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the sun' : 'a time to embrace, and a time to be far from embracing' : a time for speaking smoothly, and a time for speaking sharply. And that when the words of Inspiration are seriously imperilled, as now they are, it is scarcely possible for one who is determined effectually to preserve the Deposit in its integrity, to hit either too straight or too hard.” Dean John William Burgon (The Revision Revised. pp. vii-viii)
  #19  
Old 05-16-2008, 12:21 AM
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bibleprotector bibleprotector is offline
 
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There, you have my position dealing with the King James Only. To further clarify, I do not think that the English can correct the Greek, nor do I hold to the idea that the Greek can correct the English. I DO hold to the idea that the English of the King James Authorized Bible is an accurate, faithful, and correct reproduction of God sanctioned Greek and Hebrew texts so that we can say that it is translationally without error.
But that is not saying that the translation is full or complete in English, that is, that the whole and all the meaning of the original words are exactly and fully presenting the full sense in the English.

"But thou hast fully known my doctrine" (2 Tim 3:10a). "Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear" (2 Tim. 4:17a). This requires that the full translation occur so that we (all Gentiles) may fully know the doctrine in English. Are the Gentiles going to hear only the full truth today if they go to the Greek? Or if it is yet being unlocked and revealed from the Greek? Is it not rather that God has providentially supplied and sanctioned the English Bible to take out from the scattered Greek and Hebrew one good Bible for all?

Last edited by bibleprotector; 05-16-2008 at 12:28 AM.
  #20  
Old 05-16-2008, 12:54 AM
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Diligent Diligent is offline
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Originally Posted by Truth4Today View Post
There, you have my position dealing with the King James Only. To further clarify, I do not think that the English can correct the Greek, nor do I hold to the idea that the Greek can correct the English. I DO hold to the idea that the English of the King James Authorized Bible is an accurate, faithful, and correct reproduction of God sanctioned Greek and Hebrew texts so that we can say that it is translationally without error.
Is the King James Bible perfect and complete and without error? Do you believe there is something we can "gain" from the Greek and Hebrew that isn't evident in the KJB? I'm curious, because you and quite a few people seem to stop short of attributing the full and complete manifestation of Scripture to the King James Bible. Just wondering.
 

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