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  #11  
Old 05-11-2008, 08:54 PM
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Deny all you can, but that will forever be an error in the KJV.
There we have it. This shows that the TRO and the modernist do agree on one thing, that the KJB is in error.

Rather than searching the Scripture, studying and believing, we observe that the interpretations and philosophy of man are put above the Scripture.

I believe that Jesus went to hell. This is what the KJB says. By hell, I mean the place of torment. This is what the KJB shows. However, I also know that he preached to the souls in prison, that is, paradise and Abraham's bosom, which is across some gulf in the middle of the earth. This is also what the KJB reveals in various references. Clearly Christ did suffer the wrath of God on sin in the pit of hell, because He did indeed become sin for us. This is the Gospel in the KJB. He went to hell so that I (and every believer) does not have to go there.

Notice that when we take the KJB, we find that we will have correct doctrine. The KJB does not contradict itself. It is indeed true.
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  #12  
Old 05-11-2008, 09:32 PM
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"I believe that Jesus went to hell." Then that's where you're going, because Jesus Himself said he went to paradise. You don't believe Jesus, and John 3:36 says "he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him," that is, he that does not beleive what the Son says.

"By hell, I mean the place of torment. This is what the KJB shows." Wrong. The KJV waters down the truth about hell by confusing the words gehenna and hades. It shows Jesus who told the theif "today I will be with you in paradise" as being in hell, thus turning hell into paradise. I suppose we shouldn't fear hell anymore, since it is a paradise according to the false doctrine of KJVonlyism. The fact is, that by properly distinguishing the difference between gehenna (Hell) and hades (not hell) the modern versions rescue the excruciating image of hell that the Bible gives from the candied paradise view of hell that the KJV gives to those who actually read it. Unlike you, BP, many actually read their KJV and notice that Jesus went to paradise and that paradise therefore must be hell since he also went to hell in the KJV. Some throw up their hands and say "contradiction!" and leave Christ. Others, make hell into paradise. Others see that the Greek word is hades and come to the truth on the matter. Others just blaspheme as you do.

Paladin54, hades is in the heart of the earth (Mat 12:40, Eph 4:9) and it is where souls go when they depart, and it is the word that the apostles use for where Jesus went. The word they use for eternal punishment is gehenna. That Jesus didn't go burn in hell for your sins is clear enough from that Paul never mentions anything about it. All we have is Peter quoting the Psalm that Jesus' soul was not left in hades, from which is is clear that Jesus soul went to hades first and then came out, which Paul also references in Ephesians 4:9 as that to ascend he must first have descended to "the lower parts of the earth." But nobody in Scripture ever says (as that heretic John Calvin) that "If Jesus had died a physical death merely, it had been nothing. It was necessary also that he suffer in hell." Such is mere blasphemy. Paul asks the Galatians who has bewitched them that they beleive another gospel when he set forth Christ among them as crucified (Gal 3:1) not as bar-b-qued. If Paul had set forth a roasted Christ for their salvation, why doesn't he say "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, charbroiled-in-hell among you?"?????

Last edited by textusreceptusonly; 05-11-2008 at 09:35 PM.
  #13  
Old 05-11-2008, 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted by bibleprotector View Post
However, I also know that he preached to the souls in prison, that is, paradise and Abraham's bosom, which is across some gulf in the middle of the earth.
The prison is not Abraham's bosom, but where the wicked angels are held until the judgement (2 Pet 2:4), which brings us to yet another word translated hell in the KJV, which is tartarus. Jesus went to hades, specifically to Abraham's bosom, and he preached across the gulf to the angels in tartarus. But neither he nor they were in hell, because nobody is in hell until the end of time, because hell is one and the same as the lake of fire into which the beast and false prophet and the devil are cast at the end. Remember, Jesus said that hell is "prepared for the devil and his angels:" (Mat 25:41) but not that they are currently there!!! Nobody is in hell. Everyone who is dead is either in Abraham's bosom or tartarus, that is, either on the good side or bad side of hades, on one side of the gulf or another. But at the resurrection, then the righteous leave Abraham's bosom and return to their resurrected bodies and go to heaven, and the wicked go to hell (i.e. gehenna). By making hades, tartarus, and gehenna all one and the same, not only do you charbroil Jesus, but you also nullify the resurrection! Are the wicked resurrected from hell just to thrown back into hell? No. They are brought out of hades to be cast into hell. Why could the rich man see Abraham across the gulf when hell is called a place of outer darkness? (Mat 8:12) Because the rich man was in tartarus, in the bad side of hades, and not in hell yet. That place of torment the rich man was in was so weak that he was only tormented in one flame, a flame (go read the text!) and he just wanted one drop of water for his tongue, just one, only one. But the place he's going to after the resurrection is a lake of fire and a place of outer darkness! Do you not see how KJVonylism nullifies the horrors of hell? Sin all you want and go to a place with one flame where one drop of water is enough to quench your pain, say the KJVOs. Not so, says God, for indeed this place is only until the resurrection, and after that is a lake of fire and brimstone, which is the second death, and it is a place of outer darkness. Not only so, but the rich man was in tartarus as a soul only, but in hell (gehenna, the lake of fire) you be cast in both body and soul, as Jesus says fear not him that can kill only but fear him who after he has killed can cast both body and soul into hell. But the rich man's body was not there, because he was not yet in hell. He was only in waiting for hell. So, all you sinners who take courage in your sins from the parable of the rich man as it stands in the KJV, saying to yourselves "aha! only one flame! only one drop of water needed!" disquiet your spirits and be confounded, for that's just hell's waiting room, after which you will be immersed in the lake of fire and it will be pitch black to where you can't see your hand and you will weep and howl and lament and there will be gnashing of teeth. That candied KJVO hell is not the reality of the thing.

Last edited by textusreceptusonly; 05-11-2008 at 10:05 PM.
  #14  
Old 05-11-2008, 10:08 PM
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Christ did go to paradise that day, but he also went to hell. It is about rightly dividing the word of truth, something which all the mumbo jumbo wordings cannot clarify, but which only serve to confuse the matter.

1. Some throw up their hands and say "contradiction!" and deny Christ.
2. Others, make hell into paradise, or vice versa.
3. Others go to the Greek words, and deny the truth of the King James Bible, but make doctrine match up with their own prefixed ungodly ideas.
4. Others come to the truth on the matter, and see that Christ went both to paradise and to hell, which indeed is the plain teaching of the King James Bible.

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heretic John Calvin
John Milton once wrote a book about Protestant Union. In it he said that Calvinists were in error, but were not heretics.
  #15  
Old 05-11-2008, 10:14 PM
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Jesus went to hades, specifically to Abraham's bosom, and he preached across the gulf to the angels in tartarus.
Why would Jesus preach to those devils who are kept in chains under darkness reserved for the future judgment? Surely, Abraham's bosom was the prisonhouse for the righteous in that they could not yet go to heaven.

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Are the wicked resurrected from hell just to thrown back into hell?
No. Hell is present. The lake of fire is eternal. Hell itself will be thrown into the lake of fire.

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Sin all you want and go to a place with one flame where one drop of water is enough to quench your pain, say the KJVOs.
This is serious misrepresentation of the King James Bible, and is not the doctrine held by various KJBOs.

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That place of torment the rich man was in was so weak that he was only tormented in one flame
Really? Why did he say "this flame", meaning that he had his own, as compared to every man upon whom the wrath of God abides, who also have their flames?
  #16  
Old 05-11-2008, 10:26 PM
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"Why would Jesus preach to those devils who are kept in chains under darkness reserved for the future judgment?"

To rub it in. "And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it." (Col 2:15)

You must have missed that the passage which speaks of him preaching to the spirits in prison (the very passage you are arguing about) talks about him preaching to the spirits who were disobedient during the days in which Noah was building the ark (which certainly is not talking about Abraham and Moses)?

1 Pet 3:18-22 (KJV) "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: {19} By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; {20} Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. {21} The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: {22} Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him."

You will note that when referring to human beings, Noah and his family, he says "eight souls" but when speaking of those in prison to whom Jesus preached he says "spririts." Why? Dictringuishing human from non-human?

Yes, those in Abraham's bosom are included later on, but are not said to be in "prison," as we find in 1 Pet 4:6 "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." This one is spoken of the saved dead. But where does it refer to them as being in prison? It does not.

As far as my calling Calvin a heretic, BTW, I was referring to this specific statement "If Jesus had died a physical death merely, it had been nothing. It was necessary also that he suffer in hell." That is heresy. It is a denial of the cross. It says essentially that Jesus dying on the cross was just a necessary prereq to going to hell so he could burn and that salvation is actually accomplished by him frying not by dying on the cross. This contradicts the whole of the Bible, which does not say one word about Christ burning in hell, but only about him dying on the cross and going to hades (not hell) and being raised the third day.

Quote:
This is serious misrepresentation of the King James Bible, and is not the doctrine held by various KJBOs.
Its an accurate portrayal of what a logical person would take from the parable as rendered in the KJV. He asked for one drop of water? "Must not have been too bad then." KJVOism makes a mockery of hell, turning hell's waiting room into hell itself, making hell into a walk in the park compared to what the Bible actually teaches it is.

Last edited by textusreceptusonly; 05-11-2008 at 10:36 PM.
  #17  
Old 05-11-2008, 11:21 PM
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To rub it in. "And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it." (Col 2:15)
I think you are saying, as it reads in the false gospel of Nicodemus, that Jesus fought with devils in hell. This is wrong. Jesus overcame the power of devils in the spirit realm at his resurrection, not in hell. Simply because devils are not in hell, but around on the earth and in the air. (There are a certain class of devils under darkness in chains, and a certain class in the shaft which leads to hell under Apollyon).

Quote:
You must have missed that the passage which speaks of him preaching to the spirits in prison (the very passage you are arguing about) talks about him preaching to the spirits who were disobedient during the days in which Noah was building the ark (which certainly is not talking about Abraham and Moses)?
Actually, the passage in 1 Peter is talking about the righteous people from before the time of Noah who were “sometime disobedient”. That is, of the general nature of Adam’s sin, though good people, as may be applied to any person who was not obeying the law of God, though who was by nature following it, because they always had their conscience. It is also referring to any righteous person who died before the crucifixion of Christ. The connection between the mention of "Noah" on Earth is not absolute to the people dwelling in the prison, that is, that all Old Testament folk were there, as typified by Noah and his family. You will see that Noah did go and get drunk, or David commit adultery, thus being sometime disobedient, yet they were both there reserved of God.

Just because it does not mention Abraham means nothing. It doesn’t mention Abel either. But we know that Abel was there, and that it afterwards was called Abraham’s Bosom.

The eight souls that were saved on the ark is referring to Noah’s family, the spirits in prison is referring to all the pre-Crucifixion righteous. Obviously, souls are active on the Earth, but in Abraham’s Bosom they were having a rest (i.e. comforted, as dwelling in a bosom). The division between spirit and soul is complementary, not contradictory.

Thus, "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." (1 Peter 4:6) means that the people were spiritually alive, but physically dead. This is in no way a contradiction. They all had a choice, those people, to believe or not to believe when Christ preached to them in prison (i.e. Abraham’s bosom). And they believed.

Since God concluded all people in unbelief, including those righteous he reserved from the Old Testament in paradise, it is clear that they all needed to make a faith decision to believe Christ when he preached to them there.

Unless Christ not only suffered in his physical body (on the cross) but also spiritually (in hell), salvation would not be true. Unless Christ actually conquered death (hell), he did not actually accomplish salvation for the spirit of a man. Unless Christ dealt with the power of sin itself by destroying it altogether, he did not really win the victory. What kind of weak salvation has a Christ who does not go to hell, and cannot overcome the very embodiment of the power of the wrath of God itself. Clearly, you are thinking that hell is Satan’s power. It is not. Hell is God’s power. You see, God made hell, and God has set up the sending of rebellious people to hell. Of course, people have a choice not to go there when they hear the Gospel.

As for a purposeful misreading the real event (not parable) of a beggar named Lazarus and the rich man in hell, why should I comment on that?

Clearly, a person who rejects a present hell, making it merely "hell's waiting room" is actually the one denying hell.

Last edited by bibleprotector; 05-11-2008 at 11:30 PM.
  #18  
Old 05-14-2008, 08:02 PM
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I think you are saying, as it reads in the false gospel of Nicodemus, that Jesus fought with devils in hell.
No. I'm saying he went to Abraham's bosom and from there preached across the gulf to the angels in prison, and rubbed it in.

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Actually, the passage in 1 Peter is talking about the righteous people from before the time of Noah who were “sometime disobedient”.
Wow, you don't even know that "were sometime" is Elizabethan for "used to be"? It does not mean "were occasionally disobedient" but "used to be disobedient," and the context clearly establishes that these spirits who "used to be disobedient" during the time of Noah either (1) died in the flood, as only 8 souls were saved or (2) weren't human. But, of course, there's no point in further discussing anything with a KJVO knowitall who doesn't even know KJV English. Go learn what "sometime" means, then repent of trying to broil Christ in hell.

Last edited by textusreceptusonly; 05-14-2008 at 08:04 PM.
  #19  
Old 05-14-2008, 09:11 PM
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And here I thought that only KJBOs could be nasty. Better watch out TRO, your character is showing.
  #20  
Old 05-14-2008, 10:55 PM
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Sometime means “at a certain time ... in the past; once.”

Sometimes means “... in former times, formerly.”

Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
Tit 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

The words “sometime” and “sometimes”, which are near synonymous, both are not used in the King James Bible to mean (merely) “occasionally”. (Looking at Colossians 1:21, it is evident that the “sometime” state does exhibit specific fruits, that is, what might be called “occasions”, that is, “wicked works”. The teaching is that all men were concluded by God in unbelief, and all were of Adam’s sin, therefore all produced various particular sinful works. Christ’s salvation had to deal with the very root of the problem, the wicked heart, not just the fruits of sin.)
 

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