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  #51  
Old 03-13-2009, 11:49 PM
kevinvw kevinvw is offline
 
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I'm curious. Since you reference the verses about the twelve gates and so on in New Jerusalem, do you think that New Jerusalem is the dwelling place of Israel?
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  #52  
Old 03-14-2009, 03:16 AM
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NO of course not. all who enter in would mean all who are in the Lamb's book of life may enter in and inhabit the New Jerusalem. the term New Jerusalem in Jewish in flavor and speaks mianly to Israel. But not only Israel will live in it.
  #53  
Old 03-14-2009, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by kevinvw View Post
One has to go no further than Genesis 2 to get the teaching. Adam is put to sleep and a woman is created out of him and is bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh. Jesus died to purchase a group of people that become bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh.
Note: Any and all capitalizations are for emphasis. I don't shout nor engage in "flame" wars and don't mean to insinuate that I am flaming or shouting.

Kevin, this is a most unhealthy and untenable simile to point to of the Church being compared to Eve due to this:

Gen. 3:11 ¶ And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

Wherein from Scripture do we, this "bride" who was NOT taken from Christ's Body but grafted into it, where do we cause Christ to apostasize and fall from God the Father's grace as did Adam's bride cause him to? I attended a Bride Baptist church after leaving the Church Of Christ, and if ever life imitates art then I was truly The Invisible Man of H.G. Well's novel and movies. every Wednesday night and every Sunday night I was there for two years and had on every attendance exploded, showering the pews with gore and body parts, I would not have been noticed, even after my wife volunteered and cleaned 9 of the church buses towards the end of our involvement. I reseached the movement("Old Lanmarkism) and can find no Scripture from J.M Pendleton or J.R. Graves for the need for a Church Letter, thought I consider Briders saved Christians and not cultic like COC or JWs.

Your reference is good Bride Baptist doctrine, it's not good Bible doctrine however. Scripture with Scripture, studying the similtudes and comparing precept with precept we see:

Isa 49:18 Lift up thine eyes round about, and behold: all these gather themselves together, and come to thee. As I live, saith the LORD, thou shalt surely clothe thee with them all, as with an ornament, and bind them on thee, as a bride doeth.
Isa 61:10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.
Isa 62:5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.
Jer 2:32 Can a maid forget her ornaments, or a bride her attire? yet my people have forgotten me days without number.
Jer 7:34 Then will I cause to cease from the cities of Judah, and from the streets of Jerusalem, the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride: for the land shall be desolate.
Jer 16:9 For thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will cause to cease out of this place in your eyes, and in your days, the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride.
Jer 25:10 Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle.
Jer 33:11 The voice of joy, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the voice of them that shall say, Praise the LORD of hosts: for the LORD is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: and of them that shall bring the sacrifice of praise into the house of the LORD. For I will cause to return the captivity of the land, as at the first, saith the LORD.
Joe 2:16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.
Joh 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
Re 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
Re 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Re 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

With all due respect to David Cloud, we can clearly see with no mystery from Scripture that the literal, flesh and bone Bride of the Lamb is the literal RESTORED ISRAEL, and this Bride is represented by the literal CITY of New Jerusalem as Israel's "adornments" and "jewels". Paul said he wanted to present us to Christ LIKE a bride("as"), that is "without spot or wrinkle", but he makes no reference that the Body of Christ is "A" bride or "THE" bride. It leaves future Israel out of the equation, and while the Pentecostals rob Israel of the promises and signs and gifts(and curses) here we have some fundamentalists robbing future and restored Israel of her status as the Bride of Christ

If Landmarkism is correct that means Christ has two brides, which the Scripture says nothing of, only ONE. So we are not Israel(as Catholicism and Protestantism claims), and we certainly are not a city, we are flesh of His flesh and bone of His bone NOW, and not future as the literal Scripture of Revelation declares this literal Bride to be. An unknown reference to this is in Rveleation, in that Christ the Body will marry Restored Israel, this reference is Revelation 1:6:

6 And hath made us kings(The Body) and priests(Restored Israel) unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Kevin, in Genesis 17 we see the advent of this future Bride:

7 ¶ And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

These two verses and this verse from Exodus cross refer beautifully to Revelation 1:6:

Ex 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

I have much experience dealing with Jesus Only-Oneness-William Branham Pentecostals and my first question is, in John 17 did Jesus pray to Himself? I ask of those who believe the Body of Christ is the "Bride", to what purpose is it for Jesus to marry Himself?

This sets off another Claymore mine teaching of mine: The false teaching we are a "priesthood of believers". I have identified the "priesthood" as future restored Israel, the "Bride" that will marry the Lamb, the KING, of whom every member of the present Body is a king(Rev. 1:6)

We are not "priests" of anything; we are part of the HIGH PRIESTS BODY (Hebrews 5:10, 6:20, 9:11).

Grace and peace to you Kevin, and to all.

Tony
  #54  
Old 03-14-2009, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by kevinvw View Post
One has to go no further than Genesis 2 to get the teaching. Adam is put to sleep and a woman is created out of him and is bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh. Jesus died to purchase a group of people that become bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh.
Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

"Of " and "out of" are different meaning. we are of Christ body by virtue of the Holy ghost Baptism into that body. We therefore are members of his body (body parts), of his flesh (body covering) and of his Bones (body frame) we were not created Out of his body or Out of his bones or Out of his flesh. you would have to privately interpret that in order to hang you doctrine.
  #55  
Old 03-14-2009, 06:12 PM
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This is a very interesting, but difficult subject.

Israel is also a part of the body of Christ.

1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
  #56  
Old 03-14-2009, 08:55 PM
kevinvw kevinvw is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Winman View Post
This is a very interesting, but difficult subject.

Israel is also a part of the body of Christ.

1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
The body of Christ is separate from Israel and Gentile nations. There are Jews, Gentiles, and the Church.

The main thing I was going for with the Adam and Eve thing was this

Gen 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

No type is perfect, but the teaching is definitely there and Paul does compare Jesus to Adam, and I think it's clear from Gen 2 that being of one flesh and bones makes one married, so go blow it out your nose because I never said that the Church was taken out of His body.
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Old 03-14-2009, 11:30 PM
kevinvw kevinvw is offline
 
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Mat 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
Mat 22:3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
Mat 22:4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
Mat 22:5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
Mat 22:6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
Mat 22:7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
Mat 22:8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
Mat 22:9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
Mat 22:10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
Mat 22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
Mat 22:12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Your guys' exposition of Matthew 22 is actually lacking because you make an exposition of it based on half of a sentence. It actually teaches that the Tribulation Saints are guests at the wedding feast, not a bride going to get married, so you guys can go eat a sock for saying I'm twisting the scriptures and inserting words when you're the ones who are.

Verses 3-6 are the Jews who rejected Jesus and crucified Him.

Verse 7 is the destruction of Jerusalem.

Mat 21:39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
Mat 21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
Mat 21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

The exact same thing happens in this passage.

Now in verse 8 it says the marriage is ready so this is obviously Rev 19. The servants go and gather guests who can obviously lose their salvation and their garments (Rev 16:15). You can read in Songs of Solomon and in Psalm 45 which are obviously types of the marriage of the Lamb that there are virgins who are guests.

Luk 12:35 Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning;
Luk 12:36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
Luk 12:37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
Luk 12:38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.

These guests are waiting to come in after the wedding is done to eat at a feast.

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Notice a wedding happens first then a feast.

Verses 10-13 can either be Tribulation saints who were invited but lost their garment (Rev 16:15), or Satan who is bound and cast into the bottomless pit (Rev 20:1-3), or both.

In light of what I just wrote, Matthew 25 is apparent. The virgins are Tribulation saints (obviously), and according to Luke 12:35-38 they aren't waiting to get married but to go to a feast.
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Old 03-14-2009, 11:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winman View Post
This is a very interesting, but difficult subject.

Israel is also a part of the body of Christ.

1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
I think you misunderstand the verse brother. It isn't saying that Israel is part of the body of Christ, it is saying that the Spirit baptism breaks down the barriers between Jews or Gentiles, bond or free, and puts them into one body together as members. So a believer who was a Jew or Gentile is now a Christian who is a member of the body of Christ, the Church. Israel as a nation is not addressed in this passage, it's talking about individual believers, whether Jews or Gentiles, etc.

The Apostle Paul defines three groups of people - Jews, Gentiles, and the Church:

1 Corinthians 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

In the Church Age, when a Jew believes on the Lord Jesus Christ as his Saviour he becomes part of the body of Christ (is baptized into it) and is no longer identified as a Jew but as a Christian, even though he is still a Jew by birth.

Israel as a nation is still on the back-burner until a furture time when God will deal with them again, and save them, but until then He only deals with individual Jews who receive Christ as their Saviour and become Christians and members of the body of Christ.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
  #59  
Old 03-15-2009, 12:54 AM
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The main thing I was going for with the Adam and Eve thing was this

Gen 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

No type is perfect, but the teaching is definitely there and Paul does compare Jesus to Adam, and I think it's clear from Gen 2 that being of one flesh and bones makes one married, so go blow it out your nose because I never said that the Church was taken out of His body.
I'm with you on this Bro. Kevin. The type still holds true:

Adam fell into a deep sleep when his rib was taken out of his side to make Eve (Genesis 2:21-23).

The second Adam, Jesus, fell into the "sleep of death" when a soldier pierced his side causing his blood to shed which was used to purchase the Church.

John 19:33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: 34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
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Old 03-15-2009, 01:22 AM
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Rth 4:10 Moreover Ruth the Moabitess, the wife of Mahlon, have I purchased to be my wife, to raise up the name of the dead upon his inheritance, that the name of the dead be not cut off from among his brethren, and from the gate of his place: ye are witnesses this day.

On the note of purchasing, here is Boaz, a type of Christ, who purchases somebody to be his wife.

Jer 10:16 The portion of Jacob is not like them: for he is the former of all things; and Israel is the rod of his inheritance: The LORD of hosts is his name.

I think that the Father is the nearer kinsman who has His own inheritence, which is Israel. So the picture would be God the Father giving the Son a wife because He cannot accept that wife to be His without marring His inheritence by abandoning Israel which He hasn't. That would make Israel the inheritence of the Father, and the Church the purchased wife of the Son, given to Him by the Father.
 

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