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  #21  
Old 03-07-2009, 12:33 PM
Winman Winman is offline
 
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I agree that spiritual death means separation. When Adam sinned, he did not physically die that very day. But he was separated from God.

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die

Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

So Adam and Eve's sin separated them from God. Their fig leaves were not good enough to restore fellowship, God had to kill an innocent animal and make skins to restore fellowship or bring them back together again.

And even the story of the prodigal son is a story of separation and reunion.

Luke 15:31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine. 32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

As long as the prodigal son was in sin he was lost and dead. But when he returned he was again with his father and alive.

Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

These are the lost. They are without, they are separated from God.

Compare to the saved:

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Last edited by Winman; 03-07-2009 at 12:40 PM.
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  #22  
Old 03-07-2009, 12:37 PM
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I don't think the idea of "Spiritual Death", has anything to do with TULIP.
Take the last verse in the Prodigal Son. The son left the Fathers house, and his sinful lifestyle had separated him from his father. As we see, the Father considered his son to be dead, but his return restored his life.

Luke:15:32: It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

Here are two more verses.

Eph:2:1: And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins.
Eph:2:5: Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved.

The word dead is used many times over, to indicate the Spiritual condition of sinful man. Since it is not possible one should walk around Physically dead, the term Dead must point to something else.
What other way could you elplain it, other than to say man in his sins is spiritually dead toward God. And when he repents, and comes to Christ he is given a new Spirit (in Christ), and is alive again.

The Scripture says Adam was created a living Soul, but when he sinned, he died. God does not lie, so when he told Adam he would surly die, he meant it. Adam did not fall dead physically, but from that time on Death had dominion over him.
I could go on, and explain how God restored Adam to life. But that would be another contention. All things in Scripture, are not always written in black and white. We have to read what God has to say on the matter, then wait for his explanation. If you are patient it will come, if not you may never know!.

If you go on trying to figure it out for yourself, you resist the Spirits revelation, you are fighting with God, and you will never win. For me its time to move on, I have come to a close on this subject.
  #23  
Old 03-07-2009, 12:46 PM
Winman Winman is offline
 
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Again, separation

Eph:2:5: Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved.
  #24  
Old 03-07-2009, 12:55 PM
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Forrest Forrest is offline
 
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Default Here's my understanding...

Perhaps the answer to the question: “What is spiritual death?” can best be addressed by asking what spiritual life is. We all know that prior to receiving Christ we were without the Holy Spirit. That is clear. I think we all understand in our “lost” condition the Holy Spirit was not dwelling in us. We were not “spiritual” but “natural” according to Scripture.

But the moment we believed and received the Lord Jesus Christ we were born again and we became spiritual because the Holy Spirit was now in us. In this sense we have been reborn…spiritually. I think this is where the phrases “spiritually alive/spiritually dead” come from.

It goes without saying we were certainly not born again physically (entering into our mother’s womb for the second time). I’ve always understood my rebirth is a "spiritual" rebirth. In this sense, prior to receiving Christ we were dead…spiritually, but after receiving Him we were alive…spiritually.

I see it this way:

No Holy Spirit = spiritually dead.
Indwelt with the Holy Spirit = spiritually alive.
1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
In my understanding, there is a clear distinction made between the “spiritual” man and the “natural” man in this passage. The natural man is not alive spiritually because the Holy Spirit is not in him. I have always believed that if a person is not alive spiritually by receiving the Lord Jesus Christ, he is dead spiritually…he must be born again.

By comparing Scripture with Scripture we see this thread of truth. I think some of us simply use the term “spiritually dead” to describe a person who has no life in Christ. Nothing more and nothing less. I’m in agreement with Brother George that the “spirit” of man is not dead; otherwise the body would be also. But I personally believe that man without Christ is “spiritually” dead because the Spirit of God is not living in him.
  #25  
Old 03-07-2009, 05:09 PM
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Diligent Diligent is offline
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Ecclesiastes 11:5 As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all.
While I am quite sure of many things about the spirit explained in the Bible, true understanding of "the way of the spirit," and how God makes all these things, is likely beyond our earthly comprehension.
  #26  
Old 03-07-2009, 09:01 PM
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Debau Debau is offline
 
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A couple more verses to throw into the hat for thought. Here "the soul" dies.

Mark 8:36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

I read God's Word(I have no problem capitalizing His written "Word"), and am always humbled at what it truly is, God's Word. The Great Equalizer.
George has done a great job showing some distinctions in the different attributes of man (on TULIP thread), but when we demand a definitive answer on some things, we are always left wanting. There are distinctions in our attributes, but they are also inextricably linked. The Bible is full of seeming paradoxes, but that the true believer can accept them by faith is how He would have it (cf. John 4:24, I Thes 2:13, Heb 11:6). It's God's Word, and I believe it!

1 Corinthians 8:2-3 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
But if any man love God, the same is known of him.


What I do know is the unsaved will experience complete separation from God, and that is a sobering thought that should give us impetus to reach the lost.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

These many verses the brethren have contributed will help me think on these things as I study. Thanks.

Last edited by Debau; 03-07-2009 at 09:17 PM.
  #27  
Old 03-07-2009, 09:45 PM
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Forrest Forrest is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Debau View Post
What I do know is the unsaved will experience complete separation from God, and that is a sobering thought that should give us impetus to reach the lost.
Yes, the statement above is true, but I am also reminded that the unbeliever is condemned right now. URGENT! Better believe in and receive Christ before it's too late.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
  #28  
Old 03-07-2009, 10:43 PM
CKG CKG is offline
 
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For as the body without the spirit is dead, ……….. (James 2:26)
I guess the thing that makes me scratch my head is that “spiritual death” is such a frequently used term yet no one really explains (maybe because they don’t know) exactly what it is.

Does it mean the human spirit died? The following verses are in the OT, before men experience the new birth.
Genesis 41:8 And it came to pass in the morning that his spirit was troubled; and he sent and called for all the magicians of Egypt, and all the wise men thereof: and Pharaoh told them his dream; but there was none that could interpret them unto Pharaoh.
1 Kings 21:5 But Jezebel his wife came to him, and said unto him, Why is thy spirit so sad, that thou eatest no bread?
Job 7:11 Therefore I will not refrain my mouth; I will speak in the anguish of my spirit; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul
Job 21:4 As for me, is my complaint to man? and if it were so, why should not my spirit be troubled?
Job 32:8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding
Psalm 34:18 The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit
Psalm 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
Psalm 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise
Proverbs 18:14 The spirit of a man will sustain his infirmity; but a wounded spirit who can bear?
Proverbs 20:27 The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.
Ecclesiastes 7:9 Be not hasty in thy spirit to be angry: for anger resteth in the bosom of fools.
Daniel 2:1 And in the second year of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar Nebuchadnezzar dreamed dreams, wherewith his spirit was troubled, and his sleep brake from him.
Daniel 7:15 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.
Zechariah 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him
As previously stated Ephesians 2:1 and 5 say nothing about your spirit
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; (Ephesians 2:1)
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) (Ephesians 2:5)
Is “spiritual death” separation from God? Then why not just say “separated from God”.
But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear. (Isaiah 59:2)
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (Revelation 20:14)
If Revelation 20:14 is talking about the second death, then what is the first death? Obviously it must be death as we normally think of it; physical. If something as dramatic as the human spirit dying had occurred it would be pointed out somewhere in Scripture and then Revelation 20:14 would be talking about the third death.

I still maintain that the term “spiritual death” is rooted in Calvinistic theology. According to their theology because a person is spiritually dead they can’t believe the gospel unless they are first born again after which they then can believe. The problem is if a person is born spiritually dead with a “sin nature” how can they be held accountable for their sins? It doesn’t square with Scripture.

Personally I never use the term “spiritual death” or “spiritually dead” anymore. Now I know we use the word “rapture” which is not found in Scripture, but at least it is clearly taught (1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4). The terms “spiritual death” or “spiritually dead” aren’t used in Scripture and no such occurrence is taught.

I guess the old saying is correct. If something is repeated often enough people will believe it is true.
  #29  
Old 03-08-2009, 07:46 AM
JOHN G JOHN G is offline
 
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Default I can't wait!

Interesting discussion...

Based on God's Word, it seems that what happened TO Adam was much more concrete than what happened IN Adam. I think we can really only speculate what happened IN Adam, but God said IN THE DAY that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die (Gen 2:17). Of course God cannot lie (Titus 1:2, Heb. 6:18), so something happened IN THE DAY.

It seems God pronounced Adam's FUTURE circumstances (Gen 3:19).
It seems God pronounced Eve's FUTURE circumstances (Gen 3:16).

But let us look at what happened to BOTH of them IN THE DAY.

Gen 3:24 So he DROVE out the man... ("the man"=mankind=both of them)

I am assuming all this happened in ONE day because God said IN THE DAY.

On a spectrum of "good" to "bad" (1-10, or whatever), how "good" did Adam and Eve have it before they ate the fruit? How "bad" did they have it 1 second ouside the garden on the other side of the flaming sword?

I think it is only comparable to how "bad" we have it now, and how "good" we believers will have it in heaven.

I am struggling using the word "bad" but I don't know how to compare life now to what life will be like in heaven. I think it is impossible to overstate/comprehend the significance of going from pre-Fall, perfect garden, perfect communion with the HOLY GOD to outside the sword. Likewise, I think it is impossible to overstate/comprehend the significance of going from this outside the sword back to perfect communion with the HOLY GOD. Oh, but I can't wait!


Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
  #30  
Old 03-08-2009, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CKG View Post
I guess the thing that makes me scratch my head is that “spiritual death” is such a frequently used term yet no one really explains (maybe because they don’t know) exactly what it is.

Personally I never use the term “spiritual death” or “spiritually dead” anymore. The terms “spiritual death” or “spiritually dead” aren’t used in Scripture and no such occurrence is taught.
First, let me say that I am in total agreement that, from what I can see, the Bible does not teach man’s “spirit” is dead as a result of Adam's sin. I think it is understood that if man’s spirit is dead then he is not living and breathing. As living human beings we possess a body, soul, and spirit. Brother George has thoroughly made that very point with Scripture.

Please consider my humble explanation of why I have used the term "spiritual death". In your original question you asked about the term “spiritual” death.

Quote:
"Spiritual Death" is an often used term, but what is it?
There is a difference, in my opinion; in telling a lost sinner his “spirit” is dead versus showing him in Scripture he has no “spiritual” life because sin has separated him from God. That is how I, and I think many others, use the term “spiritual death”.

1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
Who is the “us” in this verse? If you conclude it is the born again believer who has life (has been quickened) with Christ, then you must agree that our understanding is because we have the Holy Spirit. Our understanding as a believer is of a “spiritual” nature. I had no “spiritual” life apart from Christ, but now in Christ I have “spiritual” life because the Holy Spirit hath quickened me. God reveals truth to us by the Holy Spirit through the written word. Do you agree that a “lost” person does not have the Holy Spirit? Of course you do. From this Biblical truth, I have concluded that they (the lost person who does not have the Holy Spirit) are “SPIRITUALLY DEAD”.
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
Only the Spirit of God knows the things of God. Therefore, those who do not have the Holy Spirit LIVING in them do not know the things of God. If a person does not have the Holy Spirit living in them, they are "spiritually"...what?
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Again, we who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ have received the Spirit of God. We are born again. We have life. And that life is of a “spiritual” nature. I already possessed physical life, now i have "spiritual" life. Would you agree with that? If I now have “spiritual” life in Christ, what did I have prior to receiving Him? What would you call it?
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
I’ve entered into a new life of “spiritual” understanding. Before, without Christ, I was completely void of any “spiritual” life. What term would you use to describe a person who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit? Is he “spiritually” alive? What was he before receiving “spiritual” life? I don’t know, could we say he was “spiritually” dead?
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Who is the “natural” man? Why is he “natural”? Is it because he does not have the Holy Spirit living in him?
1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
Who is the “spiritual” man? Why is he “spiritual”? Is it because the Spirit hath quicken him and the living Spirit of God is in him? What was he before he was quickened by the Holy Spirit? Dead? Physically or spiritually?

That’s how I’ve used and applied the term “spiritual death” when witnessing. If you do not use the term, that's fine. Brother Clint, I think we all agree that we should preach Christ and Him crucified.
 

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