Doctrine Discussion about matters of the faith.

 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 03-06-2009, 09:45 PM
JOHN G JOHN G is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Newton, NC
Posts: 36
Default

I'm going to opine along the lines of Samuel. God said:

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the DAY that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

What happened in the Day that he ate the fruit? Adam didn't die physically.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Gen 3:24 So he DROVE out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.


It seemed Adam enjoyed perfect communion with God until the sin.

It seems to me that spiritual death is the separation.
Good discussion..

In Christ!
The King James Bible Page SwordSearcher Bible Software
  #12  
Old 03-06-2009, 09:51 PM
Diligent's Avatar
Diligent Diligent is offline
Forum Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Oklahoma, USA.
Posts: 641
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHN G View Post
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the DAY that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Very good point. Why else would we need Christ?
John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
  #13  
Old 03-06-2009, 10:33 PM
George's Avatar
George George is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Broken Arrow, Oklahoma
Posts: 891
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel View Post
"I find many things people say, not directly stated in the scriptures. Some things they say, come into direct conflict in fact.

When asked to explain something, we have to try to do so, while staying within the confines of what scripture may not directly say, but intimates.

As for the other, there was a Preacher here by the name of Charles Harris. If you asked him a question scripture did not directly speak on, he would not give you any answer.

In the end I don't know which is best, as far as the questioner is concerned. By giving a reasonable answer, at least you give him the opportunity the Bereans had. Maybe he will go to seek the for the correct answer for himself, and in the end learn something.

If I feel I don't have at least some justification from Scripture for an answer, I will give none also. Any I do give is from the man, not to be considered a word from God.
"
Aloha Samuel,

I mean no offense brother, but there is far too much speculation, personal opinion, and private interpretation going on in Christianity today and far too little Scripture.

Acts 5:20 Go, stand and speak in the temple to the people all the words of this life.

1 Peter 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.


Job 23:12 Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food.

As far as the Bereans are concerned they searched the Scriptures daily, they weren't concerned with the opinions of men:

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

They received "the word" (God's word - NOT the words of men) and searched the Scriptures. There is far too little of either one of these things going on in Christian circles today.

Throughout the U.S.A., Christians (of all stripes) are following men - famous men; popular men; learned men; influential men; etc. We are not supposed to be following men, we are supposed to be following the Lord Jesus Christ according to His Holy word - NOT the dictates of our conscience.

We are commanded to study the word of truth, [2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.] not so we can speak to people about what we "think", but so we can know God's word well enough so we can answer people with the "words of life", not our speculations and/or opinions.

1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

Those "answers" should be from the Scriptures - not what we "think" might be appropriate to get them to thinking.

John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

The Holy Spirit uses the word of God to convict and convince people of God's truth - not the words of man's wisdom.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

And WHAT is "TRUTH"?

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

God doesn't "sanctify" people with our words (no matter how well thought out they may be) - He "sanctifies" them with His Holy words!

1 Corinthians 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.


Christians should be concerned about giving people God's words - not our "opinions", in hopes that they will meditate on them, and possibly search out the truth. {Of course that means we have to study His words, and hide them in our heart, so we can know what to say to people from the Book of Life and not what we "think" may be helpful.}

Psalms 33:4 For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Psalms 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

According to the Scriptures: ALL of God's WORKS are DONE IN TRUTH - that is according to His Holy word; The word of God is RIGHT; the word of God is QUICK and POWERFUL; and God has MAGNIFIED HIS WORD ABOVE HIS NAME!

WHY would Christians try to use their own words in the place of His words? Are our words equal to God's words? Should we "substitute" our "opinions", "speculations", or "private interpretations" for the Holy words of God? I trow not!

It's real easy to "speculate" about spiritual matters - we can just say whatever comes to our mind. But to search the Holy Scriptures to find the out the mind of God on a spiritual issue - that's work, that's another matter altogether. And most Christians today would prefer to continue on with their personal "opinions", rather than study God's word to see what God has to say about spiritual matters.

Like I said before, IF you can find the definition of "spiritual death" or "spiritually dead" from the list of Scriptures I supplied, I would be real happy to hear it. I've done all the "searching" - all you have to do is read the verses that I have collated, or search out any other verses that might come to mind, and come up with a "Scriptural" definition.

However, if all you have to offer is your personal opinion and/or speculations, well I can do that also - not that my personal opinions or speculations on spiritual issues is worth a hill of beans.

I want to know the truth; the whole Truth; and NOTHING but the Truth. That's all that matters to God, and that's good enough for me.
  #14  
Old 03-06-2009, 11:06 PM
George's Avatar
George George is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Broken Arrow, Oklahoma
Posts: 891
Default Re: "Spiritual Death?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHN G View Post
"I'm going to opine along the lines of Samuel. God said:

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the DAY that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

"What happened in the Day that he ate the fruit? Adam didn't die physically."

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Gen 3:24 So he DROVE out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

"It seemed Adam enjoyed perfect communion with God until the sin.

It seems to me that spiritual death is the separation.
Good discussion.."

In Christ!
Aloha brother JOHN G,

Your statement: "It seems to me that spiritual death is the separation." seems reasonable, and you may be right.

The problem I have is for over 40 + years I was taught that Adam's "spirit" DIED the day he ate of the fruit. And I accepted that explanation until I did my study on the heart of man; and in the course of that study I had to examine all of man's attributes and discovered that there are NO Scriptures that SAY that man's "spirit" died, dies, or experiences death (NOT like man experiences physical death).

Consequently I have tried, to understand (from Scripture) what "spiritual death" is - if the "spirit" (NOT the Holy Spirit) in mankind does not, or cannot "DIE", then "spiritual death" is NOT like physical death, because I can find no verses that say a spirit (that comes from God) DIES. {And I haven't even mentioned "EVIL SPIRITS" - that seemingly do not, or cannot DIE either!}

This whole discourse is deeper than most Christians are willing to admit. Bible issues that must be spiritually discerned are not always easy; and, in the end, we may not be able to come to a full understanding of a particular matter. But what I refuse to do, is to do what the men that taught me for all those years. I refuse to teach something as "Truth", if I cannot PROVE it from the Scriptures. And I hesitate to speculate, because I could be wrong.

That's my whole point, we have to be real careful with what we say or teach, if the Scriptures are not real clear on an issue; or if we lack the discernment, understanding, and wisdom to "get it"; or if God just isn't showing us.
  #15  
Old 03-07-2009, 07:04 AM
chette777's Avatar
chette777 chette777 is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Puerto Princesa City, Palawan Philippines
Posts: 1,431
Default

Literally there is no verse in the Bible that even uses the term Spiritual death. and the term that supports George's statements is James where he says Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, . . . and if the souls of men whose torment arises before the throne of God for ever is a pretty clear example that those people are alive in the lake of fire and not dead.
  #16  
Old 03-07-2009, 08:27 AM
Diligent's Avatar
Diligent Diligent is offline
Forum Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Oklahoma, USA.
Posts: 641
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chette777 View Post
Literally there is no verse in the Bible that even uses the term Spiritual death. and the term that supports George's statements is James where he says Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, . . . and if the souls of men whose torment arises before the throne of God for ever is a pretty clear example that those people are alive in the lake of fire and not dead.
Does anyone who teaches that the unregenerate are "spiritually dead" don't actually have a spirit?

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

I am curious what died in Adam in the day his sinned if it was not his spirit. I'm not being dogmatic about it, but something did and based on Eph 2 (and others) we know something of man is walking around "dead" before regeneration.
  #17  
Old 03-07-2009, 09:07 AM
CKG CKG is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Warner Robins, Georgia
Posts: 197
Default

"Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;"

Two things about this verse. It doesn't say anything about a person's birth condition (i.e. the saying that we are born spiritually dead) and it doesn't say anything about a person's spirit. It says YOU (not your spirit) were dead, not because of a birth condition, but YOU were dead in trespasses and sins. It was your trespasses and sins that caused you to enter this state of being dead. In Romans 7 Paul said he was alive once, but when the commandment came, sin revived and he died. I believe a person is born separated from God but must reach an age of accountability before they are held accountable for their sins. Once a person reaches that point of understanding right and wrong or good and evil they are now accountable and become dead in their trespasses and sins. Their sin and their knowledge of sin has condemned them; unless they get saved.

I would suggest that there was a physical death following Adam's (and Eve's) sin. God, in His mercy, and as a picture of salvation, slew an animal to cover Adam's sin. Nothing changed in Adam's constitution (body, soul and spirit) after his sin. If he had obeyed God he could have stayed in the Garden, but because of his sin he was cast out and no longer had access to the tree of life; therefore he was now subject to death.

I would also suggest you look up spirit in the Old Testament and you will see folks before the cross, before there was a new birth, had a spirit.

Good discussion. I don't know that I have the answers as much as I dofuel for the discussion.
  #18  
Old 03-07-2009, 09:07 AM
George's Avatar
George George is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Broken Arrow, Oklahoma
Posts: 891
Default Re: "Spiritual Death?"

Aloha Brandon,

This is the problem we have when there is either so little Scripture to go on or our discernment and understanding are limited.

You raise an interesting point, for which I have no definitive Scriptural answer.

Your quote:
Quote:
"Also, not all men's spirits go back to God after death. Else this would be error:"
1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
"What were the spirits doing in prison (in the earth)? Not sure where this fits but it's there somewhere. Perhaps the "upward" movement of the spirit was yet to come for them."
Let's look at the context of 1 Peter 3:19, and then the context of WHO and WHEN Peter was speaking of.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.


In the context Peter was speaking about "the days of Noah", and specifically about the people living in those days prior to the Flood.

Genesis 6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also isflesh : yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

The "spirits" in prison spoken of here are specifically the "spirits" of those (?) who lived before the Flood.

Which leads to the following questions:

#1. Are those "spirits" in prison ALL of the people who died before (and during) the Flood?

#2. Are those "spirits" in prison only the Men of Renown (the Giants), the hybrid offspring of "the sons of God and the daughters of men"?

Or:

#3. Are those "spirits" in prison only "the sons of God (Angels?) who came into the daughters of men"?

[Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.]

And then again:

#4. WHERE is the "prison" spoken of located?

This is what I mean when I wrote about speculating about the word of God. There is so little information, and when it comes to spiritual discernment, we know so little.

The Scriptures indicate that the "spirits" of all men (and women) born after the Flood return to God. Taking into account the preceding Scriptures, I believe that the same was true of all ordinary men (and women) before the Flood also.

Since there are so few Scriptures dealing with this issue ("the spirits in prison") it is difficult to say with finality that those "spirits in prison" are the "Angels which kept not their first estate", but from the Scriptural record, it would seem that that's who they are.

I dislike speculating about Scripture. There are spiritual matters that we have so little idea about that it should humble us all. For example:

The whole Chapter 10 of the Book of Daniel (Spiritual warfare between God and Satan).

And what about the "Cherubims"; the "Seraphims"; the "Four Beasts" ("in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne" of God); the Angels (and their hierarchy); etc.

And then we have those verses about spiritual warfare that are directed at us (Christians), that so few of us have so little idea about:

Ephesians 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:


Today (especially in the Western world) most Christians think that the Christian life is all about being "entertained"; or having "a good time"; or about God blessing us with "material wealth & goods". But according to the Scriptures, we are in a "WAR". I don't understand it all - I just thank God that I am, at least, aware of these things.

I'm looking forward to the day when my Saviour will clear up all of these issues [1Corinthians 13:9-12]. Until then, I will continue to study the word of truth; believing God for all of it - even if I don't fully understand it all.

  #19  
Old 03-07-2009, 10:37 AM
CKG CKG is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Warner Robins, Georgia
Posts: 197
Default

This is <currently> speculation on my part, but I'm thinking the whole idea of spiritual death has its roots in Augustinianism, better known to us as Calvinism, and their erroneous ideas of original sin and total depravity.
  #20  
Old 03-07-2009, 11:40 AM
JOHN G JOHN G is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Newton, NC
Posts: 36
Default

If the second death (Rev. 2:11, 20:6, 20:14, 21:8) is eternal separation from God into a lake of fire and brimstone, is the first death the separation (temporal depending on belief) from GOD the DAY Adam sinned (Gen 2:17)? (Cross reference) 1Cor. 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

CKG, I think it is a defense against the T and I of the TULIP.

Thanks for the discussion
 

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

The King James Bible Page SwordSearcher Bible Software

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:06 PM.

Powered by vBulletin®, Copyright vBulletin Solutions Inc.

Website © AV1611.Com.
Posts represent only the opinions of users of this forum and do not necessarily represent the opinions of the webmaster.

Software for Believing Bible Study

 
Contact Us AV1611.Com