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Old 09-23-2008, 03:19 AM
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Default Are the words of Job, Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar, & Elihu "suspect" or "Truth"?

Aloha Brother Tim,

Please elaborate on the following statements that you made.

Brother Tim’s Quote:
Quote:
Remember at the end of the book, God Himself discredits the words of the men who spoke against Job, including Eliphaz. Therefore, the words of Eliphaz are not to be considered as fact, especially when not supported elsewhere in the Scriptures by a more reliable source.
Did God discredit all of the words these men spoke, or did He just discredit some of the things that they had said about God? “. . . . for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.” [Job 42:7] “. . . . in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.” [Job 42:8]. The Bible didn’t say that God “discredits the words of the men who spoke against Job.You must have proof that when Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar, Elihu, or Job spoke about creation, Adam, The Flood, Sin, etc., that they were in error – cite some of their errors from the Scriptures, or else (if you cannot cite error on their part) you should accept their words as “facts” and thus the truth. The principle that: “a man is not “guilty, until “proven guilty, should be a principle that all Bible believers should abide by. We cannot dismiss Eliphaz's words on "suspicion" alone.

Brother Tim’s Quote:
Quote:
I am only saying that the words of Eliphaz are suspect. If he stated a truth in the verse you quoted, then there should be another location in the Scriptures where the truth is repeated. Is that too much to ask? Since God accused him of not speaking the truth, I'll side with Him over a question of logic.
#1. Where did God accuse Eliphaz of “not speaking the truth”?

Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

Job 40:1 Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said,
Job 40:2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.


Job 40:6 Then answered the LORD unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
Job 40:7 Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.


None of the statements that God made in all of the above verses were directed at Eliphaz or the other two “friends” of Job, or Elihu. They were all directed (solely) at Job. Read all of the verses from Chapter 38 through Chapter 41. The Scriptures record God’s address to Job, and then the singular “THEE”, “THOU”, and “THY” is used throughout Chapters 38-41. There isn’t a “YE” or a “YOU” (Plural) to be found in Job Chapters 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, or 41! {One of the many advantages of the so-called “archaic” words in the King James Bible is that we can easily see who is being addressed by the use of the pronouns – THY, THOU, THEE (singular), and YE and YOU (plural).}

Job 42:7 And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of ME the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.

Job 42:8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of ME the thing which is right, like my servant Job.

Notice: God did not accuse Eliphaz of NOTspeaking the truth(in general). He accused him specifically of NOT speaking of Godthe thing which is right”. Eliphaz and Job’s other two friends had maligned God by saying that the suffering that Job was going through was due to personal sin in Job’s life; they were saying that Job’s “trials” and “testing (from God) were really “punishment” from God - “ye have not spoken of ME the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.”; while the truth was that God was “proving” Job through Job’s “trials” and “testing”. Eliphaz was attributing the “testing” of Job to sin in Job’s life – which indirectly called God’s will and judgment into question {After all, what had God said about Job in Chapter One? [Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?]

#2. You stated: “If he stated a truth in the verse you quoted, then there should be another location in the Scriptures where the truth is repeated”. While what you said is generally true there are “exceptions”, the most obvious being: 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. I know of no other verse in the Bible where we are commanded to STUDY.

#3. You said: I am only saying that the words of Eliphaz are suspect.This is the statement that concerns me the most. Why would you suspect Eliphaz’s word’s are “suspect”? Can you produce anything that Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar, Elihu, or Job said that would make you “suspect” any of their words (when it comes to “facts” – not “judgment”)? IF Eliphaz words are “suspect”, then so are the words of Bildad, Zophar, Elihu, and Job himself! That is why I asked (in another Post) if you had any evidence of any “factual error” in anything that Job’s three “friends”, Elihu, or Job made in regards to anything that they said about Creation, Adam, The Flood, Nature, Sin, the Person and Majesty of God, etc., etc.? Other than misjudging Job’s sufferings (an error in “judgment” is not a “factual error”), in regards to those things mentioned above, I know of no “factual errors” stated by any of those men.


The following are some of Eliphaz’s statements in regards to some very important Bible topics. Perhaps you can tell me what is “suspect” among them:

ELIPHAZ (The Temanite)

Eliphaz knew that men (in his day) received understanding in dreams and visions and through spirits (from God) [Job 4:12-16]
Job 4:12 Now a thing was secretly brought to me, and mine ear received a little thereof.
13 In thoughts from the visions of the night, when deep sleep falleth on men,
14 Fear came upon me, and trembling, which made all my bones to shake.
15 Then a spirit passed before my face; the hair of my flesh stood up:
16 It stood still, but I could not discern the form thereof: an image was before mine eyes,
there was silence, and I heard a voice, saying,

Eliphaz knew that God is far more just and much more Holy than man [Job 4:17]
Job 4:17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

Eliphaz knew that God was his maker [Job 4:17]
Job 4:17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

Eliphaz knew about mankind’s struggles in life [Job 5:7]
Job 5:7 Yet man is born unto trouble, as the sparks fly upward.

Eliphaz knew that he should put his trust in God [Job 5:8]
Job 5:8 I would seek unto God, and unto God would I commit my cause:

Eliphaz knew that God corrects people and that we should not despise His chastening
Job 5:17 Behold, happy isthe man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty:

Eliphaz states that the knowledge that Job has about God and about God’s nature and His ways is generally known by most of the people living in the area where they live and that a lot of that knowledge was passed down by the elders [Job 15:8-10]
Job 15:8 Hast thou heard the secret of God? and dost thou restrain wisdom to thyself?
9 What knowest thou, that we know not? what understandest thou, which is not in us?
10 With us are both the grayheaded and very aged men, much elder than thy father.

Eliphaz knew that a man has a heart and a spirit [Job 15:12-13]
Job 15:12 Why doth thine heart carry thee away? and what do thy eyes wink at,
13 That thou turnest thy spirit against God, and lettest such words go out of thy mouth?

Eliphaz knew about the exceedingly sinful state of mankind [Job 15:14-16]
Job 15:14 What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?
15 Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight.
16 How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?

Eliphaz knew that God puts no trust in his saints “Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints;” [Job 15:15]

Eliphaz knew that even
“the heavens are not clean in his sight.” [Job 15:15]
Job 15:15 Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight.

Eliphaz knew that the Earth was given to man (the “fathers” testimony) [Job 15:18-19]
Job 15:18 Which wise men have told from their fathers, and have not hid it:
19 Unto whom alone the earth was given, and no stranger passed among them.

Eliphaz knew that wicked men will not get away with their sins [Job 15:20-35]
Job 15:20 The wicked man travaileth with pain all his days, and the number of years is hidden to the oppressor.
21 A dreadful sound is in his ears: in prosperity the destroyer shall come upon him.
22 He believeth not that he shall return out of darkness, and he is waited for of the sword.
23 He wandereth abroad for bread, saying, Where is it? he knoweth that the day of darkness is ready at his hand.
24 Trouble and anguish shall make him afraid; they shall prevail against him, as a king ready to the battle
25 For he stretcheth out his hand against God, and strengtheneth himself against the Almighty.
26 He runneth upon him, even on his neck, upon the thick bosses of his bucklers:
27 Because he covereth his face with his fatness, and maketh collops of fat on his flanks.
28 And he dwelleth in desolate cities, and in houses which no man inhabiteth, which are ready to become heaps.
29 He shall not be rich, neither shall his substance continue, neither shall he prolong the perfection thereof upon the earth.
30 He shall not depart out of darkness; the flame shall dry up his branches, and by the breath of his mouth shall he go away.
31 Let not him that is deceived trust in vanity: for vanity shall be his recompence.
32 It shall be accomplished before his time, and his branch shall not be green.
33 He shall shake off his unripe grape as the vine, and shall cast off his flower as the olive.
34 For the congregation of hypocrites shall be desolate, and fire shall consume the tabernacles of bribery.
35 They conceive mischief, and bring forth vanity, and their belly prepareth deceit.

Eliphaz knew that man cannot add anything to God or impress God[Job 22:2-3]
Job 22:2 Can a man be profitable unto God, as he that is wise may be profitable unto himself?
3 Is it any pleasure to the Almighty, that thou art righteous? or is it gain to him, that thou makest thy ways perfect?

Eliphaz knew that God dwells in Heaven[Job 22:12-14]
Job 22:12 Is not God in the height of heaven? and behold the height of the stars, how high they are!
13 And thou sayest, How doth God know? can he judge through the dark cloud?
14 Thick clouds are a covering to him, that he seeth not; and he walketh in the circuit of heaven.

Eliphaz knew about the Flood and that God caused the Flood because of mankind’s wickedness and sins [Job 22:15-16]
Job 22:15 Hast thou marked the old way which wicked men have trodden?
16 Which were cut down out of time, whose foundation was overflown with a flood:

Eliphaz knew that God had laws (unwritten) that came from God’s Mouth [Job 22:22]
Job 22:22 Receive, I pray thee, the law from his mouth, and lay up his words in thine heart.

Eliphaz knew that we should “lay up His words in thine heart.”[Job 22:22]
Job 22:22 Receive, I pray thee, the law from his mouth, and lay up his words in thine heart.


And since you said: “God Himself discredits the words of the men who spoke against Job”. How about some statements by Job’s two “friends” – perhaps you can find some error amongst them:

BILDAD (The Shuhite)

Bildad knew that God is Just [Job 8:3]
Job 8:3 Doth God pervert judgment? or doth the Almighty pervert justice?

Bildad knew about the existence of sin & man is just a worm [Job 8:4 & Job 25:4-6]
Job 8:4 If thy children have sinned against him, and he have cast them away for their transgression;

Bildad knew about a former age – from the fathers (Dispensation?) [Job 8:8-10]
Job 8:8 For enquire, I pray thee, of the former age, and prepare thyself to the search of their fathers:
9 (For we are but of yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth are a shadow
10 Shall not they teach thee, and tell thee, and utter words out of their heart?

Bildad knew that words are uttered from out of the heart [Job 8:10]
Job 8:10 Shall not they teach thee, and tell thee, and utter words out of their heart?

Bildad knew that God will not castaway or abandon the perfect man and that God will not help or approve of evil doers [Job 8:20]
Job 8:20 Behold, God will not cast away a perfect man, neither will he help the evil doers:

Bildad knew that the wicked will not get away with their sin [Job 18:1-21]
Job 18:1 Then answered Bildad the Shuhite, and said,
2 How long will it be ere ye make an end of words? mark, and afterwards we will speak.
3 Wherefore are we counted as beasts, and reputed vile in your sight?
4 He teareth himself in his anger: shall the earth be forsaken for thee? and shall the rock be removed out of his place?
5 Yea, the light of the wicked shall be put out, and the spark of his fire shall not shine.
6 The light shall be dark in his tabernacle, and his candle shall be put out with him.
7 The steps of his strength shall be straitened, and his own counsel shall cast him down.
8 For he is cast into a net by his own feet, and he walketh upon a snare.
9 The gin shall take him by the heel, and the robber shall prevail against him.
10 The snare is laid for him in the ground, and a trap for him in the way.
11 Terrors shall make him afraid on every side, and shall drive him to his feet.
12 His strength shall be hungerbitten, and destruction shall be ready at his side.
13 It shall devour the strength of his skin: even the firstborn of death shall devour his strength.
14 His confidence shall be rooted out of his tabernacle, and it shall bring him to the king of terrors.
15 It shall dwell in his tabernacle, because it is none of his: brimstone shall be scattered upon his habitation.
16 His roots shall be dried up beneath, and above shall his branch be cut off.
17 His remembrance shall perish from the earth, and he shall have no name in the street.
18 He shall be driven from light into darkness, and chased out of the world.
19 He shall neither have son nor nephew among his people, nor any remaining in his dwellings.
20 They that come after him shall be astonied at his day, as they that went before were affrighted.
21 Surely such are the dwellings of the wicked, and this is the place of him that knoweth not God.

Bildad knew that God is All Powerful (Omnipotent) [Job 25:2-3]
Job 25:2 Dominion and fear are with him, he maketh peace in his high places.
3 Is there any number of his armies? and upon whom doth not his light arise?

Bildad knew that man cannot be justified with God by man’s own will [Job 25:4-6]
Job 25:4 How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?
5 Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight.
6 How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?


ZOPHAR (The Naamathite)

Zophar knew that Almighty God is beyond human comprehension[Job 11:7-8]
Job 11:7 Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection?
8 It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?

Zophar knew that man can be vain and wicked [Job 11:11]
Job 11:11 For he knoweth vain men: he seeth wickedness also; will he not then consider it?

Zophar knew that there are dire consequences for sin [Job 11:20]
Job 11:20 But the eyes of the wicked shall fail, and they shall not escape, and their hope shall be as the giving up of the ghost.

Zophar knew about reasoning, consciousness, and that his spirit had something to do with his understanding {spiritual understanding?}[Job 20:2-3]
Job 20:2 Therefore do my thoughts cause me to answer, and for this I make haste.
3 I have heard the check of my reproach, and the spirit of my understanding causeth me to answer.

Zophar knew that man was placed upon the Earth a long time ago [Job 20:4]
Job 20:4 Knowest thou not this of old, since man was placed upon earth,

Zophar knew that the wicked and the hypocrite will not get away with sin and that God will judge sinners at the appointed time[Job 20:5-29]


And since we’re at it, maybe you can find some mistakes or mis-statements with some of Elihu’s pronouncements:

SOME OF THE THINGS THAT ELIHU KNEW

ELIHU (The son of Barachel the Buzite, of the kindred of Ram)

Elihu knew Job’s basic problem – Self Righteousness [Job 32:2]
Job 32:2 Then was kindled the wrath of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the kindred of Ram: against Job was his wrath kindled, because he justified himself rather than God.

Elihu knew and understood that Job’s “friends” were barking up the wrong tree’ - Job’s “friends” believed that Job’s misfortunes must be the result of some personal sin in Job’s life. Their assumptions were wrong! Job wasn’t being punished or disciplined – he was being tried, tested, and proved. [Job 32:3]
Job 32:3 Also against his three friends was his wrath kindled, because theyhadfoundno answer, and yet hadcondemned Job.

Elihu knewthat he was to respect his elders [Job 32:4]
Job 32:4 Now Elihu had waited till Job had spoken, because they were elder than he.

Elihu knew that man has a spirit within himself and that God gives man spiritual understanding [Job 32:8]
Job 32:8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

Elihu knew that “great men are not always wise” and that “the aged” don’t always “understand judgment” [Job 32:9]
Job 32:9 Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgment.

Elihu knew that the spirit within a man can constrain him to do or say things [Job 32:18]
Job 32:18 For I am full of matter, the spirit within me constraineth me.
Quote:
[CONSTRAIN, v.t. L., to strain, to bind. See Strain. In a general sense, to strain; to press; to urge; to drive; to exert force, physical or moral, either in urging to action or in restraining it. Hence,
1. To compel or force; to urge with irresistible power, or with a power sufficient to produce the effect.]
Elihu knew that it isn’t right to “accept any man’s person”, or to “give flattering titles unto man”
Job 32:21 Let me not, I pray you, accept any man's person, neither let me give flattering titles unto man.
22 For I know not to give flattering titles; in so doing my maker would soon take me away.

Elihu knew that God disapproved of accepting men’s persons and was strongly against the use of flattering titles [Job 32:21-22]
Job 32:21 Let me not, I pray you, accept any man's person, neither let me give flattering titles unto man.
22 For I know not to give flattering titles; in so doing my maker would soon take me away.

Elihu knew that when he spoke, that his words came from his heart, and that his words should be upright & be with knowledge, and that his words should be clear & easy to understand [Job 33:3]
Job 33:3 My words shall be of the uprightness of my heart: and my lips shall utter knowledge clearly.

Elihu knewthat the “Spirit of God” made him and that the “breath of the Almighty gave him life”
Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

Elihu knewthat he was made of clay (Possible reference to Adam?) [Job 33:6]
Job 33:6 Behold, I am according to thy wish in God's stead: I also am formed out of the clay.

Elihu knew that Job’s claim of innocence and accompanying accusations against God were not just [Job 33:8-13]
Job 33:8 Surely thou hast spoken in mine hearing, and I have heard the voice of thy words, saying,
9 I am clean without transgression, I am innocent; neither is there iniquity in me.
10 Behold, he findeth occasions against me, he counteth me for his enemy,
11 He putteth my feet in the stocks, he marketh all my paths.
12 Behold, in this thou art not just: I will answer thee, that God is greater than man.
13 Why dost thou strive against him? for he giveth not account of any of his matters.

Elihu knewthat God is greater than man”[Job 33:12]
Job 33:12 Behold, in this thou art not just: I will answer thee, that God is greater than man.

Elihu knewthat God is not obligated to give an account of Himself or any of His matters [Job 33:13]
Job 33:13 Why dost thou strive against him? for he giveth not account of any of his matters.

Elihu knew that when God speaks, He will often repeat a matter, a precept, a principle, and yet man still won’t understand [Job 33:14]
Job 33:14 For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not.

Elihu knewthat God spoke to men (in his day) through dreams & visions [Job 33:14-15]
Job 33:14 For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not.
15 In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed;

Elihu knewthat God will open men’s ears for spiritual understanding and that He would seal their instruction [Job 33:16]
Job 33:16 Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction,

Elihu knewthat men are kept by God [Job 33:18]
Job 33:18 He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword.

Elihu knew that God chastens men [Job 33:19]
Job 33:19 He is chastened also with pain upon his bed, and the multitude of his bones with strong pain:

Elihu knewthat God chooses individual men, “one among a thousand”, to interpret and to show God’s uprightness, and that God uses these “called” men to deliver other men from going to the pit (Hell?) [Job 33:23-24]
Job 33:23 If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness:
24 Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom.

Elihu knew that God forgave sin based on genuine repentance on the part of the sinner and that God would deliver the repentant sinner’s soul from the pit (Hell?)
Job 33:27 He looketh upon men, and if any say, I have sinned, and perverted that which was right, and it profited me not;
28 He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light.
29 Lo, all these things worketh God oftentimes with man,
30 To bring back his soul from the pit, to be enlightened with the light of the living.

Elihu knew that God gave “light” to the repentant sinner and that God often works with man in this manner [Job 33:28-30]
Job 33:28 He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light.
29 Lo, all these things worketh God oftentimes with man,
30 To bring back his soul from the pit, to be enlightened with the light of the living.

Elihu’s desire was to see Job justified and that Job would become wise – Elihu sought to edify Job! [Job 33: 32-33]
Job 33:32 If thou hast any thing to say, answer me: speak, for I desire to justify thee.
33 If not, hearken unto me: hold thy peace, and I shall teach thee wisdom.

Elihu knewthat men try words “as the mouth tasteth meat” and that men choose what is good and judgment [Job 34:3-4]
Job 34:3 For the ear trieth words, as the mouth tasteth meat.
4 Let us choose to us judgment: let us know among ourselves what is good.

Elihu knew that God does not “do wickedness” or “commit iniquity”, or “pervert judgment” [Job 34:10-12]
Job 34:10 Therefore hearken unto me, ye men of understanding: far be it from God, that he should do wickedness; and from the Almighty, that he should commit iniquity.
11 For the work of a man shall he render unto him, and cause every man to find according to his ways.
12 Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.

Elihu knewthat God has set His heart upon man and that (at a man’s death) He gathers unto Himself His (man’s) spirit and His (man’s) breath [Job 34:14]
Job 34:14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;

Elihu knewthat it is not right to condemn (or criticize) God [Job 34:17-20]
Job 34:17 Shall even he that hateth right govern? and wilt thou condemn him that is most just?
18 Is it fit to say to a king, Thou art wicked? and to princes, Ye are ungodly?
19 How much less to him that accepteth not the persons of princes, nor regardeth the rich more than the poor? for they all are the work of his hands.
20 In a moment shall they die, and the people shall be troubled at midnight, and pass away: and the mighty shall be taken away without hand.

Elihu knew that God is not a respecter of persons [Job 34:19]
Job 34:19 How much less to him that accepteth not the persons of princes, nor regardeth the rich more than the poor? for they all are the work of his hands.

Elihu knew that God knows all about us and keeps track of everything that we do
Job 34:21 For his eyes are upon the ways of man, and he seeth all his goings.

Elihu knewthat God is just and that His judgment is fair & righteous. [Job 34:23]
Job 34:23 For he will not lay upon man more than right; that he should enter into judgment with God.

Elihu knew that God brings down mighty men and sets other in their place because they turn their back on God and will not consider any of His ways [Job 34:24-27]
Job 34:24 He shall break in pieces mighty men without number, and set others in their stead.
25 Therefore he knoweth their works, and he overturneth them in the night, so that they are destroyed.
26 He striketh them as wicked men in the open sight of others;
27 Because they turned back from him, and would not consider any of his ways:

Elihu knewthat God’s chastisement is for our own good and that our response to His chastisement should be – acceptance without complaint; a determination not to offend any more; a willingness to receive instruction; and confession of iniquity (sin) and a determination to sin no more [Job 34:31-33]
Job 34:31 Surely it is meet to be said unto God, I have borne chastisement, I will not offend any more:
32 That which I see not teach thou me: if I have done iniquity, I will do no more.
33 Should it be according to thy mind? he will recompense it, whether thou refuse, or whether thou choose; and not I: therefore speak what thou knowest.

Elihu knewthat if a man claimsthat living for God and obeying God is not profitable or advantageous – that that man is really saying “My righteousness is more than God’s”
Job 35:2 Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, My righteousness is more than God's?
3 For thou saidst, What advantage will it be unto thee? and, What profit shall I have, if I be cleansed from my sin?

Elihu knew that there is nothing that a man can DO that will add to or profit God
Job 35:2 Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, My righteousness is more than God's?
3 For thou saidst, What advantage will it be unto thee? and, What profit shall I have, if I be cleansed from my sin?
4 I will answer thee, and thy companions with thee.
5 Look unto the heavens, and see; and behold the clouds which are higher than thou.
6 If thou sinnest, what doest thou against him? or if thy transgressions be multiplied, what doest thou unto him?
7 If thou be righteous, what givest thou him? or what receiveth he of thine hand?
8 Thy wickedness may hurt a man as thou art; and thy righteousness may profit the son of man.

Elihu knewthat God is man’s maker and that He “giveth songs in the night” and teaches man more than the beasts and has made man wiser than birds [Job 35:10-11]
Job 35:10 But none saith, Where is God my maker, who giveth songs in the night;
11 Who teacheth us more than the beasts of the earth, and maketh us wiser than the fowls of heaven?

Elihu knewthat God will not hear vanity nor does He regard it [Job 35:13]
Job 35:13 Surely God will not hear vanity, neither will the Almighty regard it.

Elihu knew that even though a man may think or believe that he will not see God or come into judgment–God is going to judge-therefore we should trust in Him
Job 35:14 Although thou sayest thou shalt not see him, yet judgment is before him; therefore trust thou in him.

Elihu knew that God is righteous and that “He is mighty in strength and wisdom” [Job 36:2-5]
Job 36:2 Suffer me a little, and I will shew thee that I have yet to speak on God's behalf.
3 I will fetch my knowledge from afar, and will ascribe righteousness to my Maker.
4 For truly my words shall not be false: he that is perfect in knowledge is with thee.
5 Behold, God is mighty, and despiseth not any: he is mighty in strength and wisdom.

Elihu knew that God does not preserve the life of the wicked [Job 36:6-7]
Job 36:6 He preserveth not the life of the wicked: but giveth right to the poor.
7 He withdraweth not his eyes from the righteous: but with kings are they on the throne; yea, he doth establish them for ever, and they are exalted.

Elihu knew that God does not withdraw His Eyes from the righteous and that He establishes the righteous for ever and they are exalted [Job 36:6-7]
Job 36:6 He preserveth not the life of the wicked: but giveth right to the poor.
7 He withdraweth not his eyes from the righteous: but with kings are they on the throne; yea, he doth establish them for ever, and they are exalted.

Elihu knew thatGodopens men’searstodiscipline & requiresmen return from iniquity
Job 36:10 He openeth also their ear to discipline, and commandeth that they return from iniquity.

Elihu knew about God’s principle of sowing & reaping [Job 36:11-13]
Job 36:11 If they obey and serve him, they shall spend their days in prosperity, and their years in pleasures.
12 But if they obey not, they shall perish by the sword, and they shall die without knowledge.
13 But the hypocrites in heart heap up wrath: they cry not when he bindeth them.

Elihu knewthat God does not regard a man’s wealth, riches or strength [Job 36:19]
Job 36:19 Will he esteem thy riches? no, not gold, nor all the forces of strength.

Elihu
knew that we are not to regard iniquity & that we choose good or evil [Job 36:20-21]
Job 36:20 Desire not the night, when people are cut off in their place.
21 Take heed, regard not iniquity: for this hast thou chosen rather than affliction.

Elihu knewthat because of God’s greatness and Who He is that it was impossible to really know Him [Job 36:24-33] {The Apostle Paul’s great desire: Philippians 3:10}
Job 36:24 Remember that thou magnify his work, which men behold.
25 Every man may see it; man may behold it afar off.
26 Behold, God is great, and we know him not, neither can the number of his years be searched out.
27 For he maketh small the drops of water: they pour down rain according to the vapour thereof:
28 Which the clouds do drop and distil upon man abundantly.
29 Also can any understand the spreadings of the clouds, or the noise of his tabernacle?
30 Behold, he spreadeth his light upon it, and covereth the bottom of the sea.
31 For by them judgeth he the people; he giveth meat in abundance.
32 With clouds he covereth the light; and commandeth it not to shine by the cloud that cometh betwixt.
33 The noise thereof sheweth concerning it, the cattle also concerning the vapour.

Elihu knewthat God does many great things that “we cannot comprehend”[Job 37:1-5]
Job 37:1 At this also my heart trembleth, and is moved out of his place.
2 Hear attentively the noise of his voice, and the sound that goeth out of his mouth.
3 He directeth it under the whole heaven, and his lightning unto the ends of the earth.
4 After it a voice roareth: he thundereth with the voice of his excellency; and he will not stay them when his voice is heard.
5 God thundereth marvellously with his voice; great things doeth he, which we cannot comprehend.

Elihu knewthat the entire creation is a testimony to God’s work and is a witness to men that God exists [Job 37:1-22]
Job 37:1At this also my heart trembleth, and is moved out of his place.
2 Hear attentively the noise of his voice, and the sound that goeth out of his mouth.
3 He directeth it under the whole heaven, and his lightning unto the ends of the earth.
4 After it a voice roareth: he thundereth with the voice of his excellency; and he will not stay them when his voice is heard.
5 God thundereth marvellously with his voice; great things doeth he, which we cannot comprehend.
6 For he saith to the snow, Be thou on the earth; likewise to the small rain, and to the great rain of his strength.
7 He sealeth up the hand of every man; that all men may know his work.
8 Then the beasts go into dens, and remain in their places.
9 Out of the south cometh the whirlwind: and cold out of the north.
10 By the breath of God frost is given: and the breadth of the waters is straitened.
11 Also by watering he wearieth the thick cloud: he scattereth his bright cloud:
12 And it is turned round about by his counsels: that they may do whatsoever he commandeth them upon the face of the world in the earth.
13 He causeth it to come, whether for correction, or for his land, or for mercy.
14 Hearken unto this, O Job: stand still, and consider the wondrous works of God.
15 Dost thou know when God disposed them, and caused the light of his cloud to shine?
16 Dost thou know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him which is perfect in knowledge?
17 How thy garments are warm, when he quieteth the earth by the south wind?
18 Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?
19 Teach us what we shall say unto him; for we cannot order our speech by reason of darkness.
20 Shall it be told him that I speak? if a man speak, surely he shall be swallowed up.
21 And now men see not the bright light which is in the clouds: but the wind passeth, and cleanseth them.
22 Fair weather cometh out of the north: with God is terrible majesty.

Elihu knew that the Person of God is past finding out and that He is all-powerful, and just, and that “He respecteth not any that are wise of heart”[Job 37:23-24]
Job 37:23 Touching the Almighty, we cannot find him out: he is excellent in power, and in judgment, and in plenty of justice: he will not afflict.
24 Men do therefore fear him: he respecteth not any that are wise of heart.

I'm not going to post Job's statements because he made nearly as many statements and pronouncements as the rest of his 3 "friends" and Elihu combined! {See "The Most Extraordinary Man in the Bible" - my web site}

Please review the verses above and meditate on how many of those verses, or the principles and precepts put forth, are repeated by several writers of both the Old Testament and the New Testament. How do you decide which statements, principles, and precepts are true and which ones are "suspect"? Or are we supposed to "suspect" any of them - I trow not!

When you review all of the marvelous things that all of these men knew and understood, can you honestly say that you have ever met a Christian (living today) with such discernment, understanding, and wisdom as these men possessed? (Remember - I didn't include any of Job's statements) Then how can we "pick & choose" amongst what they said, and decide for ourselves which of their words are "suspect"? The question arises: "Which words"?

There is something about the geographical location of “UZ, UR, and “THE EAST”. Job = in the land of Uz (the Chaldeans harassed Job); Abraham = from Ur of the Chaldees; and wise men from THE EAST [Matthew 2:1-16].

There is something about THE EAST (today = Mid-East) in Job’s time, that indicates that it was the repository of the TRUTH (Oral – before written Scripture) and that the “truth” was known by many (In Job’s geographical area and in Job’s time), which was not well known the further you moved away from that location. I believe that the following Table of “contemporaries” indicate that whereas Japheth’s descendants lit out for the North; and Ham’s descendants headed for the South; Some of Shem’s descendant’s stuck around the Mid-east (Today – Turkey, Iraq, Syria, and Arabia), while the rest headed further East.


TABLE SHOWING WHICH OF THE PATRIARCHS WERE CONTEMPORARY WITH EACH OTHER – {Before the Flood}
__________________________________________________ ____________________________________________
|
|--------ADAM ----------------------------------------
NOAH ----------------------------------------- SHEM

|was contemporary with: ------------------------- was contemporary with: ---------------------------- was contemporary with:
|__________________________________________________ ___________________________________________
|

|SETH – 800 years .................................................. .. N/A .................................................. ......... N/A
|__________________________________________________ ___________________________________________
|
|ENOS – 695 years ............................................. ENOS – 84 years .................................................. N/A
|__________________________________________________ ____________________________________________
|
|CAINAN – 605 years ......................................... CAINAN – 179 years ............................................... N/A
|__________________________________________________ ____________________________________________
|

|MAHALALEEL – 535 years .............................. MAHALALEEL – 234 years ............................................ N/A
|__________________________________________________ ____________________________________________
|

|JARED – 470 years ........................................... JARED – 366 years ................................................. N/A
|__________________________________________________ ____________________________________________
|
|*ENOCH – 308 years .................................................. N/A .................................................. ........ N/A
|__________________________________________________ ____________________________________________
|
|*METHUSELAH - 243 years ............................ METHUSELAH – 600 years ................................ METHUSELAH – 98 years
|__________________________________________________ ____________________________________________
|
|LAMECH – 56 years .......................................... LAMECH – 595 years ........................................ LAMECH – 93 years
|__________________________________________________ ____________________________________________

*ENOCH {“Walked With God” – Never Died – Translated - Only Enoch and Noah are said to have: “Walked With God”}

*METHUSELAH {Oldest Man to Ever Live – The Flood Came Soon After His Death}


TABLE SHOWING WHICH OF THE PATRIARCHS WERE CONTEMPORARY WITH EACH OTHER – {After the Flood}
__________________________________________________ ____________________________________________
|
|--------
NOAH ---------------------------------------- SHEM -------------------------------------- ABRAHAM

|was contemporary with: ------------------------- was contemporary with: ---------------------------- was contemporary with:
|__________________________________________________ ___________________________________________
|

|*SHEM – 448 years (total) ........................................... N/A .................................................. . SHEM – 150 years
|__________________________________________________ ___________________________________________
|
|*ARPHAXAD – 348 years ................................. ARPHAXAD – 438 years ..................................... ARPHAXAD – 88 years
|__________________________________________________ ____________________________________________
|
|SALAH – 313 years .......................................... SALAH – 433 years .......................................... SALAH – 118 years
|__________________________________________________ ____________________________________________
|

|EBER – 283 years ............................................ EBER – 435 years ............................................... EBER – 175 years
|__________________________________________________ ____________________________________________
|

|*PELEG – 239 years ....................................... *PELEG – 239 years .................................................. ... N/A
|__________________________________________________ ____________________________________________
|
|REU – 219 years ................................................ REU – 239 years ................................................ REU – 18 years
|__________________________________________________ ____________________________________________
|
|SERUG – 187 years ....................................... SERUG – 230 years ............................................... SERUG – 41 years
|__________________________________________________ ____________________________________________
|
|NAHOR – 157 years ......................................... NAHOR – 148 years .................................................. ... N/A
|__________________________________________________ ____________________________________________
|
|TERAH – 128 years .......................................... TERAH – 205 years ............................................. TERAH – 75 years
|__________________________________________________ ____________________________________________
|
|.…….. N/A .................................................. . ABRAHAM – 150 years .................................................. .. N/A
|__________________________________________________ ____________________________________________

*SHEM {Lifespan reduced by about 1/3 compared to pre-Flood Patriarchs}

*ARPHAXAD {Lifespan reduced by about 1/3 compared to Shem}

*PELEG {Drastic reduction in lifespan – Cut in half! – Compared to father, grandfather, & great-grandfather} [Genesis 10:25 And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of one was Peleg; for in his days was the earth divided; and his brother's name was Joktan.]

Job and his friends lived anywhere from about 1,800 to 2,000 years after the Creation. Their knowledge of God, Creation, Adam, Nature, Sin, the Flood, etc., exceeds most modern day Christian’s knowledge (6,000 years after the Creation). There is a very good chance that they may have interacted with Shem’s immediate descendants (if not Shem himself). I know of no “factual errors” spoken by any of them when it comes to the history of mankind, etc. They made an error in “judgment” – about Job and about God’s will for Job; However, I have been unable to find any errors of “fact” in their statements about all else.

Should any one know of any “factual errors” stated by Job, his three “friends”, or Elihu, I would like to know of them so I can add them to my study on “The Most Extraordinary Man in the Bible” - JOB.
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  #2  
Old 09-23-2008, 04:07 AM
peopleoftheway peopleoftheway is offline
 
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Oh Boy! some great stuff in there brother! I shall be printing that one out to go into my Bible. George you certainly take the time and the effort and the Holy Scripture to answer and instruct. I look at it this way, nothing written in the Bible is to be discredited as not true, for even the things that are not spoken in truth are refuted elsewhere, so in essence there is no untruthfulness left unanswered. (I hope I have explained that correctly)

Eliphaz knew that God corrects people and that we should not despise His chastening
Job 5:17 Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty:

Great verse and isn't that a truth!
  #3  
Old 09-23-2008, 08:16 AM
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Biblestudent Biblestudent is offline
 
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Yeah, I agree, peopleoftheway.

Thanks, Bro. George!
  #4  
Old 09-23-2008, 08:56 AM
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Brother Tim Brother Tim is offline
 
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George, I will just use a couple of your statements for now. Time permitting, I will review the rest. You said: (underlining mine)
Quote:
Please review the verses above and meditate on how many of those verses, or the principles and precepts put forth, are repeated by several writers of both the Old Testament and the New Testament. How do you decide which statements, principles, and precepts are true and which ones are "suspect"? Or are we supposed to "suspect" any of them - I trow not!
Regarding the first underline:

I previously said:
"I am only saying that the words of Eliphaz are suspect. If he stated a truth in the verse you quoted, then there should be another location in the Scriptures where the truth is repeated."

You appear to agree somewhat with my concern about collaboration. I was not using this policy across the board in Bible interpretation ("study"). I was applying it only to these three men that God criticized. (P.S. God vindicates Job in this passage. Elihu is ignored by everyone.)

If Eliphaz had "not spoken of me the thing that is right",
then based on your criterion for judgment:
Quote:
The principle that: 'a man is not 'guilty, until 'proven' guilty', should be a principle that all Bible believers should abide by.
Eliphaz is guilty as charged.

Regarding second underlining:
You have seen yourself (you quoted the verse) that some of the words of Eliphaz are suspect(not trustworthy-in fact, false!). Therefore the last underlined declaration is wrong.
  #5  
Old 09-23-2008, 09:35 AM
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Brother Tim Brother Tim is offline
 
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I will take small sections for discussion:
Quote:
Job 4:16-21 It stood still, but I could not discern the form thereof: an image was before mine eyes, there was silence, and I heard a voice, saying, Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker? Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly: How much less in them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation is in the dust, which are crushed before the moth? They are destroyed from morning to evening: they perish for ever without any regarding it. Doth not their excellency which is in them go away? they die, even without wisdom.
What word is the last word spoken by the spirit and not by Eliphaz? That is, where does the spirit stop speaking and Eliphaz begin speaking his own words?
  #6  
Old 09-23-2008, 10:26 AM
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Additional thoughts on the above quotation from Job 4:
I am not at all convinced that this "spirit" was actually good. If the intent of the rhetorical question in verse 17 was to produce doubt in Job's mind when it was related to him by Eliphaz, and if it was being used to establish the primary argument by Eliphaz that Job was secretly hiding sin, then is it not possible that this "spirit" was the continued attempt by satan to break Job?

Please understand that I am not saying that everything these men spoke was false, but that the statements need to be compared to other Scripture for support. satan intermingled truth and falsehood when he spoke to Eve. I believe that these men were part of the continued effort by satan to weaken Job into sinning against God.
  #7  
Old 09-23-2008, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Tim View Post
I will take small sections for discussion:
What word is the last word spoken by the spirit and not by Eliphaz? That is, where does the spirit stop speaking and Eliphaz begin speaking his own words?

Aloha brother Tim,

Can you not see the distinction between being "factually correct" about issues and having "faulty judgment"?

I repeat: If Eliphaz words are "suspect", then everything that Bildad, Zophar, Elihu and Job said, is "suspect". And yet I produced dozens of verses that are certainly NOT "SUSPECT", but are clearly the "truth". (Truth that most Christians today are unaware of!)

As Bible believers, it is possible for us to know all of the "Fundamentals" and still have "faulty judgment". I know some brothers on this Island who profess to believe exactly what I believe about the King James Bible and who are "factually correct" when it comes to the list of major doctrines that I posted elsewhere on this Forum, and yet they believe:
Quote:
"that the one and only head and shepherd of the local church is the God-called and Spirit-filled pastor, just as Jesus Christ is the Head and Chief Shepherd over the entire church;" - (Bible Believers Baptist Church Constitution and By-Laws)
If I went through every single major doctrine (that I listed elsewhere on this Forum), with these brethren, we would be in agreement on every single one of them (they are "factually correct" when it comes to doctrine), but they are clearly wrong when it comes to the power and authority of a pastor ("faulty judgment").

We are commanded to "rightly divide the word of truth", which means we are not take a "broad brush" to the words of God. We must be "specific" when charges are made or else we will miss out on the truth that God has for us in His Holy word.

What of King Solomon - the "wisest" man who ever lived (the Lord Jesus Christ being the only exception)? He wrote most of Proverbs and Ecclesiastes. Are we to "suspect" his words because of his "faulty judgment"?

Solomon once wrote some of the most profound words in the Bible (which no one has ever kept - the Lord Jesus Christ being the only exception):
Quote:
Proverbs 4:23 Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.
Solomon had so much sound and "factually correct" knowledge, discernment, understanding, and wisdom, and yet near the end of his life he "apostatized" - because of "faulty judgment", not "faulty facts".

1 Kings 11:3 And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart.
4 For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father.
5 For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites.
6 And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and went not fully after the LORD, as did David his father.
7 Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.
8 And likewise did he for all his strange wives, which burnt incense and sacrificed unto their gods.
9 And the LORD was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned from the LORD God of Israel, which had appeared unto him twice,
10 And had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods: but he kept not that which the LORD commanded.
11 Wherefore the LORD said unto Solomon, Forasmuch as this is done of thee, and thou hast not kept my covenant and my statutes, which I have commanded thee, I will surely rend the kingdom from thee, and will give it to thy servant.

Solomon ignored the very words that he had written in Proverbs 4:23! When it came to idolatry Solomon exercised "faulty judgment" (in spite of being "factually correct" in his writings and pronouncements), are you going to "suspect" anything that he said in Proverbs and Ecclesiastes?

{I will answer your comments and objections later.}
 

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