Bible Versions Questions and discussion about the Bible version issue.

 
 
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  #31  
Old 02-10-2009, 12:45 AM
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THE CONFLICT

James White, in his book, writes that his view on the King James Controversy is that it is a conflict. This is true. It is a spiritual conflict that is playing right now for the minds of Christians everywhere. The battle is to do with truth, and getting the truth to be understood.

ERASMUS’ NEW TESTAMENT

The King James Bible issue is not made or broken on Erasmus, and what he accomplished. The battle is whether or not we have a perfect presentation of the underlying text in an English translation right now on Earth.

James White points to Erasmus and how he decided to portray instrumentally the New Testament, showing human errors, or his critical choices and the annotations in such a way as to deny the infallibility or perfection of Erasmus’ work.

The reality is that Erasmus is only one part of the working of the providence of God, and the ultimate form of the text of the King James Bible lays with the translators themselves, who produced an independent variety of the textus receptus. We see that King James Bible is the final form of the Received Text today.

James White shows how people were criticising Erasmus for going to the Greek, when he could have stayed with the Romanist’s Latin. James White attempts to link this with the doctrine of KJBOists, who say that we do not need the Greek (because we have the Bible in English).

The tremendous difference that James White does not show is that the Vulgate needed to be corrected in light of the Greek Tradition, and that by taking to measure all sources and witnesses, the correct text of Scripture could be recovered. Once that was completed (and it was completed with the making of the King James Translation), there would be no need to go to the Greek or Latin any more. Thus, the KJBO accepts the initial foundation of the original language basis with other witnesses in the forming of the Bible into its final form, quite unlike the ardent Catholic who believed that whatever edition of the Vulgate was in vogue was infallible, and required no correction. The point is that the Vulgate needed correction, whereas the King James Bible comes out of that process of correction (as primarily based upon the Greek with reference to the Latin).

Since the King James Bible has been made from the right springs, and has been checked and used by so many godly men, it is the height of pride, unbelief and foolishness to come up with a doctrine that requires the correction of the King James Bible. Unlike the Vulgate, the King James Bible does not require correction. In fact, going to the Greek today to change the King James Bible is always corruption, impure, error and wrong.

VARIETY OF TRANSLATIONS WERE PROFITABLE

Anti-King James Bible only writers like to point out that the translators of the King James Bible wrote that variety of translations is profitable for finding out the sense of the Scriptures.

The modern version proponent immediately uses this to say how the King James Bible translators must think it is good that there are more modern versions than ever.

But this is not what the translators meant. They said that they were consulting the variety themselves, so that we would have one more exact translation of the holy Scripture in the English tongue. Ultimately, that denies having any other translation of the Scripture except the King James Bible.

In reality, once the variety had been consulted, only one correct text and translation was presented in the King James Bible. Whatever went into the margins was additional, peri-logical or notational. The margins were not provided so that we could pick and choose between them and the text. The margins were not provided to cast doubt on the text. They were there to show other thoughts, including some possible other renderings or translations, which the consensus and sound judgment of the translators rejected.

Many people have studied the Scripture, looked at the margins and the overwhelming judgment of English-speaking Christianity is that the margins are rightly marginal. They are not the very exact sense of the Scripture.

But the modernist tries to use the fact that the margins exist for the very purpose that the translators denied, namely, that they cast doubt upon the knowledge of what actually rightly is the Scripture.

ERROR IN GOD’S PRESERVATION OF THE KJB?

The preservation of God’s Word is providential. The KJB is only the way by which the preservation was finalised. In reality, the Scripture was scattered from the time of the original autographs until 1611, so that the underlying text was never presented correctly in any single manuscript or Bible to that time.

The issue of having a correct text and translation is different to having a perfect presentation.

The KJB was the end result of the gathering of the correct text and translation, however, the KJB itself went through a purification of editions that refined merely the presentation.

Let no one mix up preservation with perfection. Perfection in any single manuscript is unlikely, except for the Autographs and some immediate copies.

The Scripture was not preserved as perfect in a single entity (e.g. no golden plates at Constantinople in the year 1000). The perfect Word was in fact scattered in many MSS, in many witnesses, etc. Thus, there was a gathering process that was occurring, it happened in part in Latin, but primarily in Greek with TR editions, and more importantly with English Versions, and most importantly, finally and supersuccessionally in the King James Bible.

The perfect Word that was in the Autographs must have been scattered, then gathered, and translated into English, so that the perfect Word was recovered, and the preservation was complete. The next state has been the preservation of the perfect text and translation.

As a subset, the purifying work of the presentation of the King James Bible has been to ensure that the perfect text and translation of 1611 has been presented free from any presentational imperfection.

Modern translations display a different text and translation, and they are edited sometimes, and there are presentational errors in them, e.g. typographical errors.

God's providential work in history takes into account (simplistically):
1. the scattering of the text from the autographs to the gathering of the Reformation time,
2. the refining of the main Protestant English translations, and
3. the purification of the presentation of the lineage of proper traditional King James Bible editions.

Moses wrote, "He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he." (Deut. 32:4).

Moses did not see the whole Old Testament. And yet, we would say that having only five books of Scripture is an imperfect Canon. How could God's work be perfect? Clearly, God's work in history must be taken in the total view. God's work when seen in the big picture is perfect.

In regards to text: The inspiration was perfect. Copies were not. But then God was able to providentially outwork so that there was a perfect critical amassing in one Bible.

Were true Christians saved when they practised only infant baptism? Does God require new born Christians to be fully developed? Why would it be wrong to have the book of God only perfectly rendered in 1611, and no perfect single volume in Earth in, say, 1517 A.D.?

IS THE KJB ALONE = WORD OF GOD ALONE TRUE?

James White has reduced King James Bible only as meaning that there is no other possible Scripture. This implication is false. Clearly, there have been many copies of the Scripture in many languages. Even the Alexandrian copies, as corrupt as they are, exhibit Scripture.

The issue in not the existence of Scripture, the issue is that one manifestation of the Scripture is perfect, namely, that there is a perfect text and translation. In regards to use for the King James Bible believer, the formula “the KJB alone = the Word of God alone” is only true in regards to the final and supersuccessionary form of Scripture. In other words, no Bible ever presented 100% what the Autographs had with 100% accuracy except the KJB. Therefore the KJB should be used as the standard. Indeed, it should be the world standard.

This authority is not because the King James Bible was made by inspiration from 1604–1611 as James White implies is believed. The authority of the KJB as being perfect is because it is a self-authenticating argument, consistent with internal and external evidence.

This is lamely accused of being “circular reasoning”. However, the existence of God Himself is based on “circular reasoning”, therefore, there is a proper, logical and consistent use of the self-authenticating argument in regards to absolute truth. Importantly, it is possible and easy to objectively show the existence of God, and likewise to make great inquiry of the truth of the perfection of the KJB.
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  #32  
Old 02-10-2009, 07:23 AM
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My mistake it should have been perseverance of the saint.
  #33  
Old 02-28-2009, 09:46 PM
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Default Re: "King James Only Controversy"

Re: “King James Only Controversy”

Aloha brother Matthew,

I am in complete agreement with your thoughtful analysis of the “King James Only” controversy. {Your last two Posts - #30 & #31 are right to the point.} The main reason why those of us who believe, as we do, in the King James Bible, and those skeptics, who are its critics, can never come to an agreement, is inherent in the difference in our world view (“belief system” or “basic motivational force”) and theirs. Amos 3:3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed? And of course the sensible answer is – NO they can’t!

If the King James Bible Is not perfect and Holy, and exactly what God wants for His people today, then there never will be a “HOLY BIBLE” - the critics & skeptics (Scribes & Scholars) will see to it, since they will be out of a JOB the day that they finally recognize someFinal Authority” other than their own speculations and opinions. {And you may rest assured that that day will never happen – NOT with the “scholars” - they might have to go out and get a REAL JOB! Perish the thought!}

I believe that God has used three “authoritative languages” to establish His FINAL AUTHORITY (i.e. Standard). And each of those “authoritative languages” was directed at a particular audience (group of people).

HEBREW was the “authoritative language” of the Old Testament (directed almost exclusively at the Hebrew people – as a Family, a Tribe, 12 Tribes, and then a Nation). The Scriptures in HEBREW were God’s written FINAL AUTHORITY (the “STANDARD”), although there were no prohibitions to translating those Scriptures into other languages, the Hebrew Scriptures were the “STANDARD” by which any Translation was to be measured by.

Why was this so? Because from the time of Abraham up to and including the Lord Jesus Christ’s ministry on earth, God dealt almost exclusively with the Jewish (Hebrew) people, who were under God’s Covenants, which were the exclusive inheritance and possession of the Jewish (Hebrew) people. Thus – the “Hebrew Scriptures” were for the Jews (Hebrews).
Romans 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

After the rejection of the Lord Jesus Christ and the subsequent rejection of the Holy Spirit (in the persons of the Apostles and all of Christ’s followers - following His death, burial, and resurrection), God broadened His outreach, from a single nation, i.e. one people – the Jews, to all of the people of the Mediterranean area and nearby surrounding areas. And although there were numerous languages in use amongst the many people living in the Mediterranean area, there was ONE UNIVERSAL LANGUAGE (the language of Commerce, Science, Literature, etc.) used by all – the GREEK language was the UNIVERSAL LANGUAGE of that area and at that time.

When God established the “NEW COVENANT” and caused the NEW TESTAMENT to be written, He chartered a different “STANDARD” (for a different people) for His New Testament. And so the GREEK (Koine) Language became the “authoritative language” of the New Testament. And although there were no prohibitions to translating those Scriptures into other languages, the GREEK New Testament Scriptures were the “STANDARD”, by which all Translations were to be measured. {Please notice: God chose the “specific language” (“Koine” GREEK) that was used UNIVERSALLY by all of the people in the Geographical area that the Apostle Paul (and others) traveled spreading the Gospel and establishing New Testament churches.}

Were the New Testament Scriptures translated into other languages? Without a doubt! But the “authoritative language” that set the “STANDARD” was GREEK (“Koine” Greek), the language that most, if not all, of the New Testament was written in. While the GREEK language became the “STANDARD” for the New Testament, God retained THE HEBREW language as the “STANDARD” for the Old Testament. {So far the “scholars” had it at least partially right.}

However, when the time came to JOIN THE TWO TESTAMENTS (OLD & NEW) TOGETHER into ONE BIBLE (God’s written FINAL AUTHORITY), God needed a different “authoritative language” to reach a different group of people – a much wider and larger group of people, (i.e. all of the people of the world!), and just as in Paul’s time (when God chose the UNIVERSAL LANGUAGE of the Mediterranean area to reach all of the people of that area), once again, God chose the UNIVERSAL LANGUAGE of the world – ENGLISH, (the language that became the UNIVERSAL LANGUAGE of Commerce, Science, Literature, etc. 200 – 300 years after the publication of the King James Bible) to reach ALL of the people of the world!

At the time that the King James Bible was translated, no one, except God, knew that ENGLISH would become the UNIVERSAL LANGUAGE of the world! In 1611, who could have imagined that those small Islands off the Coast of the European Continent would someday rule the seas, and reach the point where: “the sun never set on the British Empire”? Of course - God knew, and so He caused the TWO TESTAMENTS to be joined together and established His written FINAL AUTHORITY (The Final “STANDARD”) in a different “authoritative Language”, by which all Translations are to be measured. {Since 1881, all “New” English Translations of the Bible have always compared themselves to the King James Bible (God’s “STANDARD”) - On the one hand, giving “lip-service” to it in a duplicitous manner, while on the other hand, denigrating, impugning, and slandering it - typical of Hypocrites!}

Did God discard the “authoritative” HEBREW & GREEK “STANDARDS”? Of course not! The Hebrew “Canon” (number of authoritative Books) ended with Malachi, approximately 400 years before the birth of Christ, and is still the same today as it was in the Lord Jesus Christ’s day. The Greek “Canon” (number of authoritative Books) is still the same today as it was in the early church (200-250 A.D. - after the churches separated and discarded “false books” from the genuinely “inspired” Books of the New Testament).

Over many, many hundreds of years the text (in 5,000+ manuscripts) of the “authoritative” GREEK “STANDARD” became “marred” and contained some “blemishes” (See: “The Traditional Text” & “The Causes of Textual Corruption” by Dean John William Burgon), but from the time of Erasmus (1466-1536) up to the present day (nearly 500 hundred years later!) the scholars (“scribes”) have yet to decide on just exactly WHAT constitutes “THE GREEK”! And IF the day ever arrives when all of the scholars (“scribes”) finally agree on an “authoritative Greek Standard” – WHO will it be directed at? There are no “Koine” Greek speaking people left in the world, and there haven’t been for hundreds of years! Of what use is an “authoritative Greek Standard”, if there is no one left alive on earth (except for a few scholars (“scribes”) that can understand it? What benefit does an “authoritative Greek Standard” serve if only a handful of people can understand it? Who is edified by it?

The HEBREW “authoritative STANDARD” is still directed at its original “target audience” (Jews), which simply means that, unlike the GREEK “authoritative STANDARD” (which no longer has a living, speaking “target audience”), The HEBREW “authoritative STANDARD” is still effective and can still edify its original “target audience” (Hebrews - Jews), but, on the other hand, since the Jewish (Hebrew) people make up less than 1% of the world’s population; and considering the fact that the vast majority of the people in the world cannot read, write, speak, or understand the Hebrew language – how is God to reach the rest of the world with His Holy word (in the Old Testament), if less than 1% of the world’s people speak or understand Hebrew?

The obvious answer is that God needed a different “authoritative language” to establish “THE AUTHORITATIVE STANDARD” for THE HOLY BIBLE (i.e. the combined Old Testament & New Testament), God needed a UNIVERSAL LANGUAGE that the vast majority of world has used for communicating between the many diverse people of the world for well over one hundred years, and that is where ENGLISH comes in, and conversely WHY God chose the English language as His “AUTHORITATIVE STANDARD” for THE HOLY BIBLE in order to reach ALL of the people of the world in the UNIVERSAL LANGUAGE of the world.

Does that prohibit Translations in other languages? Of course not! Does that mean that God won’t honor His word in a language other than English? Of course not! What it does mean, is, that ALL translations of the BIBLE (a Book) made into other languages, must come from God’s “AUTHORITATIVE STANDARD” for the whole world, and NOT from His “Authoritative Standard” for all the Greek speaking people of the Mediterranean area 1,500 – 2,000 years ago; or His “Authoritative Standard” for the Hebrew (Jews) people, who make up less than 1% of the world’s population!

Since there is NO GREEK “AUTHORITATIVE STANDARD” (despite the very “best” efforts of the scholars & scribes for nearly 500 years!) and hasn’t been for 1,500 years or so, it becomes obvious (at least to those of us who take God at His word) that God “needed” to reach the world with the UNIVERSAL LANGUAGE of the world – NOT a language that has been DEAD for hundreds of years, and which NO PERSON living uses in the daily course of their life.

The Hebrew Scriptures have served their purpose in reaching the audience (hearers) for which they were intended, i.e. “Hebrews”. The Greek (Koine) Scriptures served their purpose in reaching the audience (hearers) for which they were intended. But the world does not speak Hebrew, and not even the Greeks speak “Koine GREEK”! So what is God to do? Does He “force” all the people of the world to learn Hebrew and Greek (Koine)? Or does He seek out the UNIVERSAL language of the world to institute a new and different “authoritative language” in order to establish His “FINAL AUTHORITY” – THE HOLY BIBLE (The combined Old and New Testaments into ONE HOLY BOOK)?

We already have the “pattern” – He went from a language, Hebrew, to reach His intended “audience” (hearers); to a more UNIVERSAL language, Koine Greek, to reach His intended “audience” (hearers); and, when the REFORMATION was well established, He caused His word (words), in English (THE FUTURE UNIVERSAL LANGUAGE), to be refined (7 times) to produce (IN ONE “BOOK”) His perfect, infallible, HOLY BIBLE! How can anyoneIMPROVE” on that?

Those of us, who believe in, and unequivocally support the King James Bible as being God’s Holy word without error, hold the same convictions about it that millions of saints from 1611 up to the middle of the 20th century did. WHAT CHANGED? We haven’t CHANGED, so WHO has?

From the middle of the 1600's, and on up to approximately the middle of the 1900's, nearly all Christians (with the exception of Catholics and Scholars) agreed on ONE FINAL AUTHORITY - simply known as THE HOLY BIBLE (labeled the AV1611 - by the "scholars", and the King James Bible by the Publishers). All of the confusion about “WHICH BIBLE” is God’s Holy word has come about in the last 60 years or so. All of the disagreements, squabbling, arguments, debates, and all of the contention, discord, conflict, and division between Christians (over this issue) came about AFTER the introduction of the myriad of modern English translations (well over 100 since 1881). So the question arises – just exactly WHO is responsible for the splits, the strife, and the division between brethren?

The question for the modern day Christian is - are we going to trust the scholars and scribes? Or are we going to trust God? It’s your choice. After all is said and done, that’s what life is all about – choices. For the lost it’s – will you believe on and receive the Lord Jesus Christ as your Saviour or will you reject Him? For the Christian it’s - Do we believe what God has said about His word or do we reject His words and ignore them? That’s what the Christian life is all about – Believing God and obeying Him and serving Him according to His word. It’s your choice! WHO are you going to TRUST?

Psalms 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.


Psalms 118:8 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.

Psalms 40:4 Blessed is that man that maketh the LORD his trust, and respecteth not the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies.

Psalms 71:1 In thee, O LORD, do I put my trust: let me never be put to confusion.

Proverbs 30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

Psalms 18:30 As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him.

Psalms 56:4 In God I will praise his word, in God I have put my trust; I will not fear what flesh can do unto me.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.


Last eve I paused besides a blacksmith’s door,
And heard the anvil ring, the vesper chime.
And looking in, I saw upon the floor,
Old hammers, worn with beating years of time.

“How many anvils have you had?” said I,
“To wear and batter out those hammers so?”
“Just one,” said he, and then with twinkling eye,
“The anvil wears the hammers out, you know.”

And so I thought, the Anvil of God’s Word,
For ages, skeptics blows have beat upon.
But tho the sound of falling blows is heard,
The Anvil still remains – the hammer’s gone!

HAMMER AWAY, YE REBEL BANDS!
YOUR HAMMERS BREAK –
GOD’S ANVIL STANDS!



  #34  
Old 02-28-2009, 10:38 PM
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Thank you, George.

You mentioned that the "Hebrew" is still used by the Jews. Of course, modern Hebrew is quite different to Bible Hebrew. We know that Bible Hebrew is only used by a minority (e.g. Rabbis). Even then, in many cases, they would probably be messing up the pronunciations.

* * * * *

I wanted to get a review of James White's book up pre-empting anything that might come up about the revised edition (due around the 13th of March 2009). I know that many KJB-loving people have already responded to "The King James Only Controversy", but I want to hold up some measure of account as to whether the new edition really is "improved".

Since 1995 (when White wrote his book), the King James Bible Only doctrine has been furthered and matured through the advent of widespread internet access, giving great exposure to the differences among the various types of KJBO believers.

James White cannot be taken as an authoritative expert on the KJBO movement since he presents his view as a polemic (and scornfully) rather than analytical (and fairly).

According to him, some KJBOs are TR-onlyists, and the next group after them is “The inspired KJV group”, where “Most King James Bible Only advocates fall into this group.” I do not think that most KJBOs believe that the translators were inspired from 1604–1611. Although I do not have any meaningful statistical data, I doubt James White has any either.

Several times, I have heard James White say (basically) that KJBOs need to lie to make the KJBO doctrine work, and recently, that all KJBOs are liars.

The Dividing Line (Audio), accessed 7 Feb 2009.

James White: “Now, of course, everybody recognises a lie when you see it, and unfortunately King James Only folks are willing to lie. That’s just a fact. We’ve documented it many times, and of course, since I’ve written a book on this subject ...” (Punctuation added.)
  #35  
Old 02-28-2009, 11:20 PM
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I want to deal with Bible Protector's message and not get caught in an argument over Calvinism. When confronted with a deliberate aberration of Scripture in Luke 4, Christ "prooftexted" the contention and settled it once and for all, as Calvinism is settled once and for all by the Scriptures. Simply put:

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Any predestination is preceded by His foreknowledge, and I am only predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ. God is not Baal, He did not cherrypick me at random. Case closed.

On James White, I'll give a background story. I debated a Church Of Christ pastor over two nights. It was generally accepted, even by several COC members who were there, that the debate was over 18 minutes into it. I pointed out that COC says one of the reasons we must be baptized in water is because "...Christ was...". I pointed out that was this baptism of Christ's a work of righteousness or unrighteousness? Of course it's righteous, God cannot sin. Jesus told John, we must needs fulfill all righteousness. It was then I brought up Titus 3:5 that obliterates the COC: Not by works or righteousness which we have done but through His mercy he saved us through the washing of regeneration, NOT WATER. As my 20 minutes drew to a close I told this young pastor, I want an answer to this question from your mouth tonight: Was Jesus Christ's baptism a work of righteousness or unrighteousness?

In two nights he would not give an answer. He tinkled brass about some private interpretation, some invention of the COC called Meritorious Works and Unmeritorious Works found in no version, good or bad.

One verse of Scripture destroys the COC, one verse of Scripture destroys James White.

I used to have time to argue with those followers of Eve in Genesis 3, but don't anymore. Like with Luke 4, James White's only foundation is that God inspired the "original manuscripts", what every Jesuit in this world believes, and one Scripture passage utterly destroys The Original Manuscript Fraud:

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Here is what White and thousands like him try to make you believe:

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the original manuscripts.

If the KJV is not inspired Scripture, if there is NO inspired Scripture anywhere, I am not saved. The word of God is inspired. Is White saying there is an uninspired "word of God"?

The solution to The Original Manuscript Fraud is simple: If only the original manuscripts are "inspired", there has been no salvation since these manuscripts deteriorated according to Romans 10:17.

Many of you have spent years studying manuscript evidence, like me, like Fuller, Ruckman, Hills, and Burgon. But I've come full circle. Manuscript evidence didn't pursuad me that the KJV was the word of God, INSPIRED, the Scriptures themselves did. I mean no offense, but we need to guard ourselves and remember in fighting dragons we may become one. There are many Professional KJV Critics, we must watch and not become Professional KJV Defenders.

I'll debate James White on Mars Hill, Lincoln Center, the inner city or the lowest trailer court with meth labs a cookin'. Watch God and seven verses of Scripture destroy the Alexandrian Cult, then we'll hit the streets and evangelize till dawn.

Grace and peace

Bones
  #36  
Old 03-01-2009, 08:23 AM
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Aloha brother Howard,

I have read most of your Posts (since you joined the Forum) and find myself in agreement with you - "most of the time".

I agree with your statement:
Quote:
"If the KJV is not inspired Scripture, if there is NO inspired Scripture anywhere, I am not saved. The word of God is inspired. Is White saying there is an uninspired "word of God"?
Please check out this link on the AV1611 Bible Forums <> Bible Versions <> "Inspiration of Scripture": http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...19&postcount=1. I cannot speak for everyone on this Forum, but I too believe that God's word (words) are as much "inspired" today as they were when the "Originals" were penned; and they can be found (without error) in the King James Bible. [John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.]

I also agree with your following statement:
Quote:
"The solution to The Original Manuscript Fraud is simple: If only the original manuscripts are "inspired", there has been no salvation since these manuscripts deteriorated according to Romans 10:17."
But their is also another "fraud" (besides the "original manuscript fraud") taking place within believers ranks: "The Textus Receptus (TR) & Majority Text debate", which claims that there is no perfect "translation" of God's word (words), and never has been; and that God's word can only be found in the "original language" in the "manuscript tradition" - that is: "somewhere's" amongst the thousands of manuscripts (either in the TR or the Majority Text - NOT the "minority text") God's word can be found.

Since the "original manuscript" hoax has been proven to be a fraudulent "straw dog" (at least amongst those who have examined the issue) a new "straw dog" had to be erected to take its place - hence the "original language/manuscript tradition" argument.

Your quote:
Quote:
"Many of you have spent years studying manuscript evidence, like me, like Fuller, Ruckman, Hills, and Burgon. But I've come full circle. Manuscript evidence didn't pursuad me that the KJV was the word of God, INSPIRED, the Scriptures themselves did. I mean no offense, but we need to guard ourselves and remember in fighting dragons we may become one. There are many Professional KJV Critics, we must watch and not become Professional KJV Defenders."
After 20 years of studying the "Which Bible" issue and studying: the History of the Old & New Testament Texts; the History of the transmission of the Scriptures during the church age; the manuscript evidence; and a thorough comparison of the "bible versions" with The King James Bible; it was the internal evidence (what does God say about His word) that finally convinced me, and I too came to the same conclusion that you reached (I'm a bit slow ); and was finally and fully convinced, from God's Holy word itself (The King James Bible), that the Book that I had held in my hands since October 1958 was truly God's Holy, word - inspired, perfect, infallible, and without error.

If you check out my Thread on the AV1611 Bible Forums <> Bible Versions <> "Why I Believe in the King James Bible" you will find a complete statement of my conviction: http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...78&postcount=1

I want to welcome you to the forum and encourage you to "relax" - your amongst friends. I too have grown "weary" of battling with the "brethren", and although we may disagree on some issues (as I have with some of the brethren here), we tolerate "disagreement" amongst friends - what we do not tolerate is clear, blatant heresy; academic "elitism"; cheap-shots; false accusations; or name-calling.
  #37  
Old 03-02-2009, 09:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bibleprotector View Post
Listening to James White refute a TR onlyist on his internet broadcast today, I heard this remarkable statement:

James White: “Now, of course, everybody recognises a lie when you see it, and unfortunately King James Only folks are willing to lie. That’s just a fact, we’ve documented it many times, and of course, since I’ve written a book on this subject ...”
Eve Diseas(see Genesis 3). James whants to "help God out".

Why is James White doing the Jesuit's job for them? Or is he a secret one under oath? I'll debate him, and end the debate before it begins with 7 verses of Scripture.

Grace and peace

Tony
  #38  
Old 03-02-2009, 11:17 PM
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bibleprotector bibleprotector is offline
 
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James White brings up this accusation. In Jeremiah 34:16, he writes in his book, there is a difference between the Oxford and the Cambridge Edition. Which edition/wording is the right one?

I will give a brief answer:

Since there is only one inspiration for every word once, and that the inspired nature is only retained by preservation, most particularly in the most accurate copy/reconstruction of the original, (and) in translation, then when it comes to Jeremiah 34:16, we must choose either "whom he" or "whom ye". Only one is actually ultimately God's word in English. God would be the author of confusion if all variations were equally valid continuously.

James White claims that if the KJB is our final authority, we cannot know which is right, but if we go to the Hebrew (that is, the scholars' understanding of the Hebrew), we will able to know what is "right" in this case.

In this particular example, James White correctly understands that one reading is right, and he also discerns which is correct. However, because his method is to appeal to the Hebrew rather than the King James Bible itself, that is to say, a finite purification process of it, he will not always be right. Simply put, without starting from absolute authority, there is no absolute certain answer that can be given.

The answer which has been given by some is that every different reading in different KJB editions are right. However, there is no way logically or spiritually that "whom he" and "whom ye" can be both concurrently correct. One actually has to be correct.

God has actually only one final Word in English. It is "whom ye". We will be able to tell this is correct because it is presented in the Pure Cambridge Edition of the KJB, it was in the 1611 edition, it fits with the context, "whom he" can be easily explained as a typographical error which was perpetuated for many years, and because the Hebrew as well as other translations back up "whom ye".
  #39  
Old 03-03-2009, 01:25 AM
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tonybones2112 tonybones2112 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George View Post
Aloha brother Howard,

I have read most of your Posts (since you joined the Forum) and find myself in agreement with you - "most of the time".

*I bet that disagreement is over the first water baptism in the Bible:

*Le 8:6 And Moses brought Aaron and his sons, and washed them with water.


I agree with your statement:
Please check out this link on the AV1611 Bible Forums <> Bible Versions <> "Inspiration of Scripture": http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...19&postcount=1. I cannot speak for everyone on this Forum, but I too believe that God's word (words) are as much "inspired" today as they were when the "Originals" were penned; and they can be found (without error) in the King James Bible. [John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.]

*You merely echo Job 32:8 my friend, God inspires understanding and He ain't quit, has He? The Mormons and Catholics teach he has not closed the canon for their "Popes" and "Profits", er, "Prophets". We know He stopped there. But has He quite forming babies in wombs? Is inspiration a trance Paul went in or did God speak to Jeremiah PERSONALLY? See, two Christians dialogue and already we have given birth to The Magic Trance Theory, lol. Sure, we're not Charasmatics, but look at an infant and tell me, is that supernatural or natural? If the words of a KJV work effectually in the life of a sinner to bring him or her to the gospel, and then give them understanding of it, is that natural, ot supernatural? Is the KJV then not the word of God? I seen it, it worked effectually in me. What is supernatural? A magic trance where Scripture is written by automatic writing or is it the Whole Counsel of God, 20 copies of it each at Odd Lots and The Dollar Store?

I also agree with your following statement:
But their is also another "fraud" (besides the "original manuscript fraud") taking place within believers ranks: "The Textus Receptus (TR) & Majority Text debate", which claims that there is no perfect "translation" of God's word (words), and never has been; and that God's word can only be found in the "original language" in the "manuscript tradition" - that is: "somewhere's" amongst the thousands of manuscripts (either in the TR or the Majority Text - NOT the "minority text") God's word can be found.

*Then if the word of God can no longer be found or reconstructed there has been NO salvation since it deconstructed, correct? See the corner Gary Hudson and James White paint themselves into? I communicated with Hudson decades ago and never said a word about marriage, divorce, remarriage or salvation being different in different ages, just made it plain I was KJV Only and got branded a "Ruckamnite". I don't mind, Dr. Ruckman ain't Ahab or Absolom.


Since the "original manuscript" hoax has been proven to be a fraudulent "straw dog" (at least amongst those who have examined the issue) a new "straw dog" had to be erected to take its place - hence the "original language/manuscript tradition" argument.

*Old Wine In New Bottles.


Your quote:
After 20 years of studying the "Which Bible" issue and studying: the History of the Old & New Testament Texts; the History of the transmission of the Scriptures during the church age; the manuscript evidence; and a thorough comparison of the "bible versions" with The King James Bible; it was the internal evidence (what does God say about His word) that finally convinced me, and I too came to the same conclusion that you reached (I'm a bit slow ); and was finally and fully convinced, from God's Holy word itself (The King James Bible), that the Book that I had held in my hands since October 1958 was truly God's Holy, word - inspired, perfect, infallible, and without error.

*I agree. Fuller showed 262 out of 264 manuscripts for I Tim. 3:16 read as the KJV. That ain;t waht convinced me. It was Romans 10:17.

If you check out my Thread on the AV1611 Bible Forums <> Bible Versions <> "Why I Believe in the King James Bible" you will find a complete statement of my conviction: http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...78&postcount=1

* That I will do brother George.

I want to welcome you to the forum and encourage you to "relax" - your amongst friends. I too have grown "weary" of battling with the "brethren", and although we may disagree on some issues (as I have with some of the brethren here), we tolerate "disagreement" amongst friends - what we do not tolerate is clear, blatant heresy; academic "elitism"; cheap-shots; false accusations; or name-calling.
*This forum is rest to me, R&R, outside of it I'm spoiling for a fight. Not my TR vs Kutileks Nestels, just to see an answer to some Scripture. Our fight is not with carnal weapons. So thank you for the welcome and I got your back my brother

Grace and peace

Tony
  #40  
Old 03-07-2009, 09:22 PM
fightthegoodfight fightthegoodfight is offline
 
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I did a youtube review of his book. I go by the handle of grasshoperjax, and initially I did a video where I called him a liar. Of course I should have read his whole book first ( I didn't want to justify wasting money on his propoganda,) but after reading it I posted a 23 part video series where I was able to expose so much error and falsehood in his book, using primarily the Scriptures to show why White's position, along with those who follow him, is totally UNBIBLICAL.

Here is a link of the playlist if you are interested. So far none of White's followers have had any rebuttals to the points I bring up regarding his book:

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_lis...A65F64DC4E99E2
 

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