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  #31  
Old 01-20-2009, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by stephanos View Post
...if there is only one gospel, what were the disciples preaching when Christ was still alive?...
The good news that the Messiah, the Christ was here, and to repent and follow Him. This and all the other questons are pretty simple when compared with scripture.
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  #32  
Old 01-20-2009, 09:36 AM
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The good news that the Messiah, the Christ was here, and to repent and follow Him. This and all the other questons are pretty simple when compared with scripture.
They sure weren't preaching this:
1Co 15:1 ¶ Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
  #33  
Old 01-20-2009, 10:22 AM
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How about:

Rev. 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

There's no "death, burial and resurrection" in THAT gospel, Josh. Just FEAR GOD AND WORSHIP HIM. Kinda' unlike Christ's Gospel of the Kingdom (Matt. 4:23, 9:35, 24:14; Mk. 1:14) OR Paul's Gospel of Grace (Acts 20:24, 1 Tim. 1:11, etc.)

Yes, the Bible is easy to understand, but there is more in there than most people really understand. This is just the tiniest little hint of what lies inside the Book once you learn to Rightly Divide, as the Scriptures command us.

I heartily second Bro. Stephen's advice to get Bro. Stauffer's book; it opened my eyes to the basics of Dispensationalism in a very easy but factual way. You'll never regret buying that book.
  #34  
Old 01-20-2009, 07:05 PM
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If we don't rightly divide the Bible, imagine what we'd think when we came to these verses:

"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed." (Galatians 1:8,9)

Does that mean the angel of Revelation would be accursed?

That can't be, surely...

So, the understanding of Galatians 1 compared to Revelation needs to be looked at. Something changes between the two...

...the church (saved people) get raptured out of here!

And the means of salvation changes as well.
  #35  
Old 01-20-2009, 08:12 PM
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The good news that the Messiah, the Christ was here, and to repent and follow Him. This and all the other questons are pretty simple when compared with scripture.
Yeah but to bad there's nothing there about how to get saved. You won't get saved with that message Josh. I hope that isn't what you're teaching people.

For Jesus' sake,
Stephen
  #36  
Old 01-20-2009, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by MC1171611 View Post
I heartily second Bro. Stephen's advice to get Bro. Stauffer's book; it opened my eyes to the basics of Dispensationalism in a very easy but factual way. You'll never regret buying that book.
Is along the lines of some of what Scofield presents in his study Bible? I can't get access to that page for some reason.
  #37  
Old 01-20-2009, 10:01 PM
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Is along the lines of some of what Scofield presents in his study Bible? I can't get access to that page for some reason.
I'm not certain exactly what Scofield taught; from my recollection, he was at least close to the mark, but I would still try getting Stauffer's book for a direct study of this topic.
  #38  
Old 01-20-2009, 11:58 PM
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Samuel, there is no clear line between Calvinists and Arminians.

Some dispensational teachers have taken to calling themselves "Moderate Calvinists" (Chafer, Darby, Scofield, Newell, Stanford, Nyberg, Ryrie) in an effort to stay the debate between calvinism and arminianism, but even moderate calvinism (a misnomer) does not resemble either of them.

Moderate Calvinism denies the TULIP.

Men is totally depraved, but not inable to respond to God.
God's election is conditional and man is responsible for sin
God's atonement is unlimited in scope, but limited in application
God's grace is irresistable and can be rejected
Christ preserves the saints for eternity through His grace, not their perseverance.

It's nothing like Calvinism at all, because it essentially denies every point. My Pastor calls himself a Biblicist (which gets the calvies mad). The only thing it has in common with calvinism is Eternal Security, but even the Calvinists hate that term, preferring "Perserveranc of the Saints" which is a works based gospel (backloading the gospel with works - grace to be saved, works to stay - it's arminianism in disguise, the difference being Armi's say you lose your salvation, Calvies claim you never had it).

If I go by any kind of theology, it's dispensational teaching. I don't understand it all, but I can't ignore the verses which teach man's responsibility to respond to God, nor can I ignore the hundreds of promises to Israel, yet unfulfilled.
  #39  
Old 01-21-2009, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Forrest View Post
Concerning John 15:2, let’s try to rightly divide the word of truth in order to understand “taketh away”.

Every branch in me....”

I guess we would all agree that the branch represents a born-again believer who is in Christ. Once we are in Christ we are eternally in Christ. We will always be in Christ. Our works or pious behavior did not put us in Christ in the first place so our works or bad behavior will not take us out of Christ. We are secure in the "know so" hope of eternal salvation because it had nothing to do with us in the first place. It's the mercy, grace, power, and sufficiency of God through Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

1 John 5:11-13 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

John 3:17-18 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Ephesians 1:13-14 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away…”

Since we have clearly established in scripture the fact that once a sinner is born from above he can never be unborn. From this truth we understand that the words “taketh away” could not possibly mean that we are utterly removed from the True Vine.

In this “parable” Jesus uses the vineyard—the vine, the branch, and the husbandman to teach a life changing truth. The Disciples understood full well that there is a season in which the branch does not yield fruit. They understood there is a season when a branch is fruitless. It is important to know that the branch is still connected to the vine and has life in it with the potential of bearing fruit, more fruit, and even much fruit.

What does the husbandman do when the branch is barren and not producing fruit? He “taketh away” by pruning the fruitless branch all the way back to a small branch nub. The branch is still in the vine, but there is only about a quarter inch sticking out. This pruning is necessary for growth and fruit production. This pruning actually prepares the branch for growth and fruit production. The Disciples understood this.

In the same manner this is where growth begins for all true believers who stop bearing genuine Christ-like fruit. Back at the True Vine—Jesus Christ!

Is there anyone else out there on this Forum who would agree that there are times in our Christian life when God has severally, but lovingly, applied the Divine pruning shears and given a good pruning? Are there times in your life when God “takes away” the carnal activity or the sinful disease that prevents you from bearing fruit? “Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby” (Hebrews 12:11).

Is it possible for believers to stop bearing good fruit? That’s really the question. As Christians, are we always in the growth process of yielding fruit? Be honest. We can examine our own life and answer that question. But the scripture gives us an example of a church body that was not continuing to bear good fruit.
1 Corinthians 3:1-4 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
Were the carnal church members at Corinth bearing good fruit? I don’t think so. The Apostle Paul said he could not speak to the believers at Corinth as unto spiritual. Does this imply they were not saved?

The Corinthian believers were identified as carnal (or fleshly). In other words, they were governed by mere human nature and not by the Holy Spirit. Their behavior was as if Christ had no part of them. They were seemingly no different than the “natural man” who wanders around aimlessly, in spiritual darkness, without Christ.

They walked as men. They did not walk with the mind of Christ. There was envying, strife, and divisions among them. The members argued with each other. They were not visibly yielding the fruit of love and kindness. Individuals demanded and clung to their own rights. They were jealous of one another. Contentious and divided, they lacked the fruit of a Spirit-filled life; a Christ directed life. Was the Church at Corinth continuing to bear good fruit? Obviously they were not.

Just as the husbandman prunes the vineyard and “takes away” fruitless branches, our Heavenly Father will prune us. God will use severe pruning in our lives in order to produce genuine fruit. His severe pruning can be seen in the strong reproofs of His word, the troublesome times of rigorous trials He orchestrates or allows and, if necessary, the painful times of His loving chastisement. But be assured, God develops a fruitful and productive life by pruning our sinful thoughts, words, or deeds. Severe pruning seems harsh, but to God’s glory, it is absolutely necessary for spiritual growth.

I believe the truths taught in John 15 are promises to all who are in Christ.

From a devotional perspective I would say John 15:1-7 gives us truths of discipleship for the church age believer, but from a doctrinal and dispensational perspective I think there is a possibility it applies to the nation of Israel. I'm not hard on this, but compare John 15:1-7 with Romans 11:17-25 and I think you will see what I mean. In the OT Israel is referred to as a vine (Psalm 80:8-19, Isaiah 5, Jeremiah 2:21, Hosea 10:1), but in John 15 Jesus says He is the true vine and “Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away” (John 15:2) which was soon to happen to the nation of Israel for rejecting their Messiah. Paul tells us about branches being broken off (Romans 11:17) with the reason being; “because of unbelief they were broken off” (Romans 11:20) and it is clear from the context of Romans 9-11 He is referring to Israel. At the same time, as Jesus was speaking, the Gentiles were soon to be “grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree” (Romans 11:17). As you read through Romans 9-11 (and passages such as 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4) you see that at a point in the future the true believers will be removed from the earth leaving the remaining apostate church which will not abide in Christ (… if God spared not the natural branches (Israel), take heed lest he also spare not thee– Romans 11:21). As the tribulation ends with the return of Jesus, a remnant of the Jews will believe on Him as their Messiah and be grafted back in. Unbelieving Jews and Gentiles (which includes the apostate church) will be “cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned” (John 15:6)
  #40  
Old 01-21-2009, 09:18 AM
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From a devotional perspective I would say John 15:1-7 gives us truths of discipleship for the church age believer, but from a doctrinal and dispensational perspective I think there is a possibility it applies to the nation of Israel. I'm not hard on this, but compare John 15:1-7 with Romans 11:17-25 and I think you will see what I mean. In the OT Israel is referred to as a vine (Psalm 80:8-19, Isaiah 5, Jeremiah 2:21, Hosea 10:1), but in John 15 Jesus says He is the true vine and “Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away” (John 15:2) which was soon to happen to the nation of Israel for rejecting their Messiah. Paul tells us about branches being broken off (Romans 11:17) with the reason being; “because of unbelief they were broken off” (Romans 11:20) and it is clear from the context of Romans 9-11 He is referring to Israel. At the same time, as Jesus was speaking, the Gentiles were soon to be “grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree” (Romans 11:17). As you read through Romans 9-11 (and passages such as 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4) you see that at a point in the future the true believers will be removed from the earth leaving the remaining apostate church which will not abide in Christ (… if God spared not the natural branches (Israel), take heed lest he also spare not thee– Romans 11:21). As the tribulation ends with the return of Jesus, a remnant of the Jews will believe on Him as their Messiah and be grafted back in. Unbelieving Jews and Gentiles (which includes the apostate church) will be “cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned” (John 15:6)
Amen brother, excellent. It's awesome how God crammed so much truth in there; from Bro. Forrest's exposition of the spiritual truths any Christian can find in this passage, to its doctrinal application in its proper time period, we can see the Grace of God that He does extend to every man.
 

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