[Mind and Body]

Calm down, potw. No-one is saying that salvation is of works; I'm just talking about the implications of James 2 on faith-alone salvation. It is more a Bible-study issue than a doctrinal issue.

[Fredoheaven]

Originally Posted by Mind and Body

Calm down, potw. No-one is saying that salvation is of works; I'm just talking about the implications of James 2 on faith-alone salvation. It is more a Bible-study issue than a doctrinal issue.

Somehow POTW made a good point too. You should have put your thread in the Bible Study section not in this thread. For me, this implies that all those saved by faith alone must show their works to others especially to unblievers. A truly saved must walk his talk. Truly we are saved by faith as in Ephesians 2:8-9 but we are also created as his "workmanship" Ephesians 2:10.

Jude 25
http://fredsites.weebly.com

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by Fredoheaven

Somehow POTW made a good point too. You should have put your thread in the Bible Study section not in this thread. For me, this implies that all those saved by faith alone must show their works to others especially to unblievers. A truly saved must walk his talk. Truly we are saved by faith as in Ephesians 2:8-9 but we are also created as his "workmanship" Ephesians 2:10.

Jude 25
http://fredsites.weebly.com

This forum is one of the nicest and most polite Christian forums I ever been in but many of us have deep differences and I notice we can strike a spark or two. We are a KJO group and being a veteran of several of those many times people merely strike sparks for the Sheol of it.

Fred, I think we need to welcome Mind & Body to eternal life in Christ Jesus and to the forum, and cut him(or her) a little break. I think MAB asks a valid question, and it's far from mere "bible study", I think MAB brings up a DOCTRINAL question, I think it should be answered. So pardon me for respectfully disagreeing with you. This deals with the doctrine of salvation by grace. I think we should help this person understand law versus grace, grace versus works, and how ALL of the books of the Bible, EVERY WORD harmonizes and does not contradict.

Anyone want to show MAB how to rightly divided the Scriptures, or shall I do it?

Grace and peace to all

Tony

[Fredoheaven]

Originally Posted by tonybones2112

This forum is one of the nicest and most polite Christian forums I ever been in but many of us have deep differences and I notice we can strike a spark or two. We are a KJO group and being a veteran of several of those many times people merely strike sparks for the Sheol of it.

Fred, I think we need to welcome Mind & Body to eternal life in Christ Jesus and to the forum, and cut him(or her) a little break. I think MAB asks a valid question, and it's far from mere "bible study", I think MAB brings up a DOCTRINAL question, I think it should be answered. So pardon me for respectfully disagreeing with you. This deals with the doctrine of salvation by grace. I think we should help this person understand law versus grace, grace versus works, and how ALL of the books of the Bible, EVERY WORD harmonizes and does not contradict.

Anyone want to show MAB how to rightly divided the Scriptures, or shall I do it?

Grace and peace to all

Tony

Ok, noted

[chette777]

Go ahead Tbones you can give him a dispensational teaching

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by Fredoheaven

Ok, noted

Brother Fred, understand I am not rebuking anyone. It's hard to convey tone of voice through a text message. I fought with beasts as Paul said, in the dispensational forums(Universalists, Original Manuscript Frauds) and yahoo version groups. This whole forum is a very widely diverse group of people. I'd like to think of it as a home where I can comment and teach and be taught. None of us are at the same level of learning and grounding. New people with questions, many who are not grounded in one degree or other, or question themselves, I for my part just believe in the spirit of Romans 12 we just talk to them. I was once an Inquisitioner. I was hard and harsh with Pentecostals particularly. I got compassion for them on the street ministry, compassion for everyone. I think we can war a good war by just educating our troops. Not everyone is an agent of BJU or the Vatican. In my brief and outer level work in intelligence and counter intelligence, once a conversation came up about terminating an "enemy" asset. I think you might know what I mean by the "t" word. Later I had a conversation with one of the other people and I was asked my opinion. My opinion was not to terminate the liability but recruit them.

I've written many messages to this forum that never got published. I asked myself, does this message edify anyone? If I felt they didn't edify anyone the message was terminated Every question we answer, every Christian edified, the devils scream.

Grace and peace to you. He is risen.

Tony

[peopleoftheway]

Originally Posted by Mind and Body

Calm down, potw. No-one is saying that salvation is of works; I'm just talking about the implications of James 2 on faith-alone salvation. It is more a Bible-study issue than a doctrinal issue.

I was perfectly calm in my answer. If it was meant to be a bible study issue you should have posted in the Bible study section and perhaps outlined your own understanding of your own question, so we the reader would know from what angle you were approaching the subject from

Matthew 5:16
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven

James is simply saying that if a person is genuinely saved by Grace through faith then there should be fruit from their good works to show for it, but NOT necessary for salvation

James 2:21, Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Genesis 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
9 And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood.
10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.

Look to Genesis 15:6

Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
The above verse is a different event from Gen 22:8-10

The Apostle Paul spoke of the root of Abraham's faith, whereas James spoke of the fruit of His faith

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
No mention of works
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Works after salvation (gen 15:6)

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Genesis 15:6 we see Abraham believing (salvation), and Genesis 22:-10 Is the fruit of that belief mentioned by James 2:21

[Winman]

I'll probably be sorry I jumped in on this one. I have read James chapter 2 for years and tried to reconcile it with Ephesians 2:8-9.

Now, I don't know if I can explain how I understand this in a way others might understand, but I'll give it a try.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Notice the word "body". There is no such thing as a body without life first existing. For a body to exist, life must have existed at least for a moment. Even in this physical, natural world, for a body to exist, it had to be alive for a time. Now, we all know our physical bodies can die. But the life we receive from Christ can never die.

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

So, James 2:26 cannot be talking about salvation. Once you place your faith in Christ, Jesus gives us eternal life and we shall never perish.

And I do not believe James chapter 2 is speaking of salvation whatsoever. I think the key phrase is "what doth it profit?" in verses 14 and 16.

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

James 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

So, what I believe James is emphasizing here is that if a man who has faith, fails to do good works, then he is USELESS.

Or as we say down south (I am a Southerner) GOOD-FOR-NOTHING.

Now, there are lots of folks who are good-for-nothing. That doesn't mean they are dead, but they really aren't profitable to themselves or anybody else. So, in that sense they are as good as dead.

So, that's my take on this chapter. I'm sure some might disagree, better men than me have been disagreeing on this chapter for centuries.

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by Winman

I'll probably be sorry I jumped in on this one. I have read James chapter 2 for years and tried to reconcile it with Ephesians 2:8-9.

Now, I don't know if I can explain how I understand this in a way others might understand, but I'll give it a try.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Notice the word "body". There is no such thing as a body without life first existing. For a body to exist, life must have existed at least for a moment. Even in this physical, natural world, for a body to exist, it had to be alive for a time. Now, we all know our physical bodies can die. But the life we receive from Christ can never die.

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

So, James 2:26 cannot be talking about salvation. Once you place your faith in Christ, Jesus gives us eternal life and we shall never perish.

And I do not believe James chapter 2 is speaking of salvation whatsoever. I think the key phrase is "what doth it profit?" in verses 14 and 16.

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

James 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

So, what I believe James is emphasizing here is that if a man who has faith, fails to do good works, then he is USELESS.

Or as we say down south (I am a Southerner) GOOD-FOR-NOTHING.

Now, there are lots of folks who are good-for-nothing. That doesn't mean they are dead, but they really aren't profitable to themselves or anybody else. So, in that sense they are as good as dead.

So, that's my take on this chapter. I'm sure some might disagree, better men than me have been disagreeing on this chapter for centuries.

Win, I agree with you in the sense yes, we are new creatures and have the Spirit of Christ and we are created unto good works. No one here who claims kinship with Jesus Christ would abhorr a good work out of a new perspective and appreciation of what the Scriptures call so great a salvation, but brother, trying to reconcile James to Paul is like trying to reconcile Leviticus to Paul. James is TIMES PAST and due to the double prophecy nature of the Scriptures, also to the Messianic Church in the Tribulation in AGES TO COME, because Peter, James, and John preached the Messianic gospel that was rejected at the end of Acts 7 and then Paul was called. James writes to the scattered Messianic church of Acts 8:1. Peter writes in I Peter to the believers he preached to in Acts 2.

Israel fell and we, Gentiles, and Jews equal with us in the Body(there is now NO difference), were grafted into this Body, BUT NOW we provoke Israel to jealousy because through their fall, we received salvation. James is as perfectly at harmony with Paul as the first five books of Moses. Written FOR US, but not TO us.

Brother, James is TRIBULATION doctrine when faith AND works will be required.

Grace and peace to you.

Tony

[peopleoftheway]

Originally Posted by tonybones2112

Brother, James is TRIBULATION doctrine when faith AND works will be required.

Agreed. As I stated in my first post that James was written to the twelve tribes scattered abroad, not the Church. But as it is not written TO us we can still profit from the scripture as we (Church) are saved by Grace through faith and works are fruit after salvation, whereas in Tribulation both are required. So the book shows the Church in this present dispensation that we need only faith for salvation. what happened/ (will happen) to Israel was written for our ENSAMPLE and ADMONITION.