[stephanos]

Originally Posted by aussiemama

So it is ok to kill someone if someone is supposedly going to die anyway? Murder is still murder. Why don't we just trust God in these rare situations rather than murder the baby?

This is really an ignorant statement. Who would you "murder" the mother or the baby? Think about this for a second before you respond. They don't usually kill (although some mothers aren't against abortion so they just might), but often times they'll try to get the child out and if the lungs are healthy enough put the child on a ventilator. Premature babies happen all the time, and doctors are getting better and better about saving this children.

http://www.keepkidshealthy.com/Newbo...re_babies.html

So anywho, it's important to remember that a husband and wife are one flesh. Let me put it another way, if the Lord were to bless me with a wife I would have a very difficult time telling the doctors to "murder" my wife in order to save the baby that "might" live.

Peace and Love,
Stephen

Having a premature baby is far different from having an abortion because the mother "will" die (in the doctors OPINION anyway). Trusting God is not murdering the wife, it's saying "we will obey God by not murdering our baby, and trust Him with the wife's life".

Originally Posted by stephanos

This is really an IGNORANT statement.

Originally Posted by MC1171611

saying that someone, in this hypothetical situation, lacks faith because he or she decides to take the life of the child, is rather RETARDED.

Gents:
Regardless, I think we should be able to respect each other's views here without using these kinds of descriptions... (caps mine)

[Brother Tim]

Ditto

[JaeByrd]

Obviously a couple of the cases that fall under "therapeutic abortion" take place after life has ceased.

The only case I can think of that is a truly life threatening "therapeutic abortion" is an ectopic pregnancy. There is no good outcome from this. Death is guaranteed from the moment of implantation.

Thanks to medical science 90% of women who have an ectopic no longer die from it. Most now only lose one ovary/fallopian tube. Which brings with it close monitoring for future pregnancies. They have a 10% chance of having another ectopic.

Which means if another ectopic is detected (there are hormonal tests as well as ultrasounds to determine this) they can either wait till it ruptures or starts internal bleeding and risk dieing (and then do surgery anyway), use hormones to terminate the pregnancy in hopes to save the last ovary/tube/minimize internal damage, or in some cases lose the last tube despite a hormonal abortion.

I know of several women who did not know they had an ectopic and have had ruptures and nearly died. Some of which lost any chance at ever having children and few who have saved one tube only to be faced with the horrible choice of terminating the next ectopic pregnancy.

I know of a woman who has had to do make the choice twice (after losing a tube on her first pregnancy) and will be having her last tube removed to prevent ever having to make that choice again. And another that this weekend also had to make the choice as they have no idea where the baby implanted. These are women who are Christians and have waited, prayed and longed for children for years. It is not an easy choice and one they deeply grieve over, but one that they really have no choice at all as all choices lead to death.

Another side of "therapeutic abortion" is the possible life threatening.

This ranges from a multiple pregnancy where they want to do selective reduction to increase the odds for the other child(ren) and ease the burden on the mother to health risks associated with the mother. And sometimes because of health issues with the baby. In a lot of cases even non-Christians tend to leave it to the natural course of things.

Of the cases I know MOST have had good outcomes for both mother and child(ren). Sometimes the loss of a child or all children in a pregnancy. I have read of one case were the mother refused an abortion and was put off cancer treatment until after the baby was born and she died from her cancer.

Of the cases I do know of no matter the outcome the Christian families have been at peace with their choice to leave these cases in God's hands. This includes the families that have born children without brains or other defects so that their organs may be harvested so that other children might live.

As to "mental health" that is just a medical work around for "elective".

Originally Posted by JaeByrd

Obviously a couple of the cases that fall under "therapeutic abortion" take place after life has ceased.

The only case I can think of that is a truly life threatening "therapeutic abortion" is an ectopic pregnancy.

Correct per post 14,
JaeByrd, your comments present a good overview and show your insight into this painful topic... we are blessed to live in an age of technology that spares women from medical conditions that could be far worse.

[MC1171611]

Bro. Parrish, one thing: I never called anyone retarded. I stated that someone that would attribute an abortion to save the life of the mother to a lack of faith would be doing something retarded. No one on here, to the best of my recollection (I might be wrong here) stated that, though it's possible.

There's a difference between calling a belief "retarded" and calling a person that. (Also, it would be appreciated if you could state that you emphasized a part of a quote; I didn't caps "retarded" in my original post but you made it look as if I had.)

[stephanos]

Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish

Gents:
Regardless, I think we should be able to respect each other's views here without using these kinds of descriptions... (caps mine)

There is nothing disrespectful about what I said. I don't think aussiemamma has put any real thought into this specific situation. I think she's totally blinded by her obsession with abortion. She clearly cannot see anything but that word in her mind when we discuss this.

Ignoring what the Scriptures say about the marriage covenant etc to focus on a Christian belief that isn't really even mentioned at all in the entirety of Scriptures is ignorant. That is, she (as well as others who take this stance) have completely hid themselves from any disagreeing points of view, even those that are well supported by what the Holy Scriptures teach.

VR's comment was right on, and she didn't even care to address it. She just chided in with her OBEY comment then disappeared. This behaviour is completely condescending to say the least.

Peace and Love,
Stephen

Originally Posted by stephanos

There is nothing disrespectful about what I said. I don't think aussiemamma has put any real thought into this specific situation. I think she's TOTALLY BLINDED by her OBSESSION WITH ABORTION. She clearly cannot see anything but that word in her mind when we discuss this.

Well, keep going then if you want to brother, that won't keep me from saying you're out of line. I wouldn't presume to know if another believer is "obsessed" or "blinded." But somehow these do indeed strike me as disrespectful comments from your keyboard.

Originally Posted by stephanos

Ignoring what the Scriptures say about the marriage covenant etc to focus on a Christian belief that isn't really even mentioned at all in the entirety of Scriptures is IGNORANT.

Marriage covenant, I thought we were talking about views on abortion. Sorry, I still say calling people "ignorant" or retarded, etc. because we disagree with them is inappropriate for a difficult subject like this. I think at least two of us of here picked up on it. You're old enough/smart enough to see and avoid this, brother.

[stephanos]

Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish

Well, keep going then if you want to brother, that won't keep me from saying you're out of line. I wouldn't presume to know if another believer is "obsessed" or "blinded." But somehow these do indeed strike me as disrespectful comments from your keyboard.

Marriage covenant, I thought we were talking about views on abortion. Sorry, I still say calling people "ignorant" and retarded because we disagree with them is inappropriate. I think at least two of us of here picked up on it. You're old enough/smart enough to see and avoid this, brother.

I never called anyone retarded. I never even used that word. But her comments were ignorant, and it doesn't make me disrespectful for pointing it out when I feel that her comments could cause a young Christian woman to stumble if faced with the situations we're talking about.

2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. (am I now not old enough or smart enough for doing just this?)

And it is beyond me how you can't see that the doctrine of marriage plays a huge role in resolving this issue we're here discussing.

Genesis 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. (not elect to let her die a preventable death, so a premature baby might live, without a mother none the less.)


Did you even read what she wrote Bro. Parrish?

I'm a mom to two young boys and my husband said he would never want to lose me, but both us and our church believe that murder is wrong for ANY reason. I don't know why this concept is so difficult for people...it's emotional for sure, but the Biblical commands are clear (can I get a book chapter and verse?) here so we just have to put our emotions in check and OBEY.

This comment is pure rhetoric and completely sensational. She hasn't backed up a word of hers with Scripture.

And then we had this:

Having a premature baby is far different from having an abortion because the mother "will" die (in the doctors OPINION anyway). Trusting God is not murdering the wife, it's saying "we will obey God by not murdering our baby, and trust Him with the wife's life".

Seriously? The denial of medical attention which WILL result in the death of an already living and breathing soul isn't murder? This reminds me of a recent bit of news I read:

http://www.livescience.com/health/08...yer-kills.html

So tell me, where does it say in Scripture that we Christians must trust God to heal us instead of say taking a prescribed antibiotic or even say an aspirin? Is it being an unfaithful Christian to use a doctor and his services to provide for the well being of our families?

I normally wouldn't get so frustrated over this issue, but I don't like it when people accuse the brethren of not OBEYING something that isn't even spoken of in Scriptures. I believe we need to stand strong on solid NT doctrine, not half hazard conjectures based on OT Scriptures.

For Jesus' sake,
Stephen