[atlas]

PBI,

You said I misquoted Ruckman, this is not true.

The trouble that you, and so many others, are having here is that you misquote Dr. Ruckman

here is where I qouted Ruckman.

Quote:

On the MP3 file at 29 seconds he says,

I teach the baby is not a living soul until it breaths

MP3 file 42 seconds


Quote:

and so I don't teach that abortion is murder like the brethren do


It starts back again on the MP3 file at 2:54


Quote:

abortion is murder, abortion is murder they show you pitchers. What are they trying to prove? They are trying to prove that the thing looks like a person it is a person. That is what Darwin taught. You've got to watch that business.

Atlas

[Forrest]

Brother “pbiwolski,” It appears to me that your answers and comments contradict one another. It may just be me, but I do not get what you are saying.

Here is a summation of your answers to Brother Tim’s questions:

1) When does the spirit get created? If at conception, why?

I would have to say at conception….

2) If the body is without a soul, is it alive? If no, then when is a baby alive?

Yes, it (the body/flesh) is absolutely alive.

3) Does the spirit separate from the soul at any point?

Of course! The soul does not need the spirit - the body does. As long as the baby is in the mother, it does not need "the spirit" (it's own), it exists off of its mother. Should mom "give up the ghost," there goes the life of the unborn baby.

On the one hand, you write:

As long as the baby is in the mother, it does not need "the spirit" (it's own), it exists off of its mother.

And on the other hand, you write:

When the child is conceived, the child receives its own spirit (the breath of life) and becomes a living soul.

4) If the pre-born child has no soul, then if death occurs in the womb, does the child cease to exist?

Yes. Please forgive the crude wording, but it is no more that a pile of meat and tissue - flesh. If you allow emotions and humanism to affect your understanding, you'll want to make those harmless unborn babies living in "a better place" (which can nowhere be proven with scripture).

On your previous post # 26 to “atlas,” you wrote:

Dr. Ruckman teaches (and so do I) then that when someone aborts a living baby [who according to you at “conception” has a spirit, a living body, of course, and, I’ll quote you again here, “When the child is conceived, the child receives its own spirit (the breath of life) and becomes a living soul”] in the womb, they are not murdering a living soul. [I assume here you are not referring to the “living soul” the child became when they were conceived?]

They are not sending the unborn baby to heaven, they are simply terminating the life that was in the flesh, life that when born would become a living soul. [I don’t get what you’re saying. It sounds like double talk. “When the child is conceived, the child receives its own spirit (the breath of life) and becomes a living soul.” And yet you conclude, “They are not sending the unborn baby to heaven, they are simply terminating the life that was in the flesh, life that when born would become a living soul.”] Never has he condoned or recommended abortion, but he teaches that it is not what everyone says it is.

Here’s a recap of your statements:

1) When does the spirit get created?

I would have to say at conception….

2) Does the spirit separate from the soul at any point?

Of course! The soul does not need the spirit - the body does. As long as the baby is in the mother, it does not need "the spirit" (it's own), it exists off of its mother. Should mom "give up the ghost," there goes the life of the unborn baby.

On the one hand, you write:

“As long as the baby is in the mother, it does not need "the spirit" (it's own), it exists off of its mother.”

And on the other hand, you write:

“When the child is conceived, the child receives its own spirit (the breath of life) and becomes a living soul.”

3) If the pre-born child has no soul, then if death occurs in the womb, does the child cease to exist?

Yes. Please forgive the crude wording, but it is no more that a pile of meat and tissue - flesh.

Is this the same pile of conceived flesh that has its own “spirit” and has become a “living soul” in the womb of its mother, according to your own words?

If you allow emotions and humanism to affect your understanding, you'll want to make those harmless unborn babies living in "a better place" (which can nowhere be proven with scripture).

So, where does the unborn babies who have a spirit, living soul, and body of flesh, by your own admission, go when their life is terminated in the womb?

Let me make sure I understand what you believe. The pile of flesh (baby) ceases to exist if death occurs in the womb? No eternal heaven? What happens to the spirit, living soul, and body they have in the womb?

[pbiwolski]

You still don't get it. Tim (while in dissagreement with me) did a good job of spelling it out for you, and you're still clueless.

I did not suggest that you and your typing while listening the "the false doctrine" was not up to par.

You're getting too hot-headed to understand my point that others have easily picked up.

[pbiwolski]

Originally Posted by pbiwolski

1 ) When does the spirit get created? If at conception, why?

I would have to say at conception,

Forrest,

I'm glad that you pointed out my error - it was a typo on my part (thinking ahead of what I wrote, I guess).

Let me be clear. Conception is not at all the word that I meant. For some reason my mind read conception and thought "birth."

This would definitely be a "contradiction" on my part and I apologize for not catching this. If anywhere else in those answers I make the same/similiar statement - then I made a mess of what I was trying to say.

Please substitute "at birth" to the answer to the first question.

Tim, I hope you notice this correction as well.

[atlas]

PBI,

You still don't get it.

No my friend, you still don't get it you're still clueless.

You say I misquoted Ruckman, this is not correct. As I have proved over and over that this is incorrect. This is why you will not address the issue.

The issue is taking the Bible out of context, You still don't get it. Are you still clueless?


Dose Gen 2:7 apply to any person ever born?

This is yes or no, this is very simple my friend.

Do you get it? Are you still clueless?

You're getting too hot-headed to understand my point

No I got your point, life and the soul are not the same thing. I have yet to address this point. I am waiting for you to address the misquoting point, and the context point. You need to address these points and then we can move forward. You have yet to address the Gen. 2:7 out of context point or the false misquoted point. Why is this PBI? Well it is because you can not address either point. Do you get that? I am challenging you to address both points. Do you get it yet or are you still clueless?

I also got your other point, you saying I misquoted Ruckman. That is the point I addressed over and over and you will not address at all.

Do you get it yet? Are you still clueless?

Dose Gen 2:7 apply to every man ever born or not?

Did I misquote Ruckman?

Now PBI lets have it friend.




Atlas

[pbiwolski]

Originally Posted by pbiwolski

3 ) Does the spirit separate from the soul at any point?

Of course!...When the child is conceived, the child receives its own spirit (the breath of life) and becomes a living soul.

Oops! I noticed that I used the wrong word again in the third question. Sorry. I meant to say, "When the child is born.."

[George]

Aloha brother Atlas,

Your Quote:

"I do not care what Planned Parenthood, the ACLU or Dr. Peter S. Ruckman says about this issue."

I agree with you 100% - I too don't care what any of those people you mentioned (or any one else, for that matter) says about this issue. However, I do want to know "what saith the Scripture"? And in your initial Thread (and all of your subsequent Posts) you gave us very little Scripture and a whole lot of "opinion".

The first thing we have to do is "calm down" a bit and look at the scriptures and determine some things about the human spirit. Instead of dealing with just one verse, let us examine the Scriptures (in context) and see what they have to say about man's "spirit".

1.THE SPIRIT {Our “Life”}

Job 32:8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

The Bible clearly testifies to the existence of spirits and distinguishes between God’s Holy Spirit and evil spirits. The Scriptures also demonstrate a distinct difference between the spirit within man and an animal’s spirit.

[Ecclesiastes 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?]

The word “spirit” (pertaining only to mankind – and excluding God’s Spirit or evil spirits, etc.) is mentioned approximately 144 times in 134 Verses in the Holy Bible. To accurately describe something that we cannot see, but accept by faith in the Scriptures, is extremely difficult. Webster’s Dictionary of 1828 is not that much help here either, because of the difficulty distinguishing between the soul and spirit (Check out Webster's "definition").

Since Webster’s Dictionary is not accurate in defining man’s “spirit” (Remember: “When it comes to words with “spiritual significance” – i.e. spirit, soul, heart mind, etc. – Noah Webster was not infallible. And neither are the “Lexicons”.), it behooves us to study the Scriptures (“comparing spiritual things with spiritual” – 1 Corinthians 2:13) in order to find “God’s definition”. After careful study and review of all 134 verses where man’s “spirit” is spoken about, I believe that the following definition is the Biblical Definition of man’s spirit:

The spirit (pertaining only to mankind) is that substance {which is given by God} within a man or woman wherein our very life resides i.e. the spirit is life itself. In the Bible the spirit is separate and distinct from the heart and the soul in purpose, though it may have some similar characteristics.

The word “spirit” (pertaining only to mankind) is used almost exclusively in the Bible in describing the ‘life force’ that resides within a man or woman. The “life” within man is manifested in energy, power, activity, etc.

[James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.]

It is quite clear from the testimony of Scripture that our spirit {“life”} emanates from the Lord God of the Bible.

[Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.]

I believe that man’s spirit is given (by God) to men and women at the moment of birth and at the moment of death that spirit returns unto God (who gave it). God gave us our “life”, He has every right to take it back whenever it pleases Him [Job 1:21].

[Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.]

When the last “exhale” (breath) escapes from a body and there is no more “inhale” (breath), a person dies (I’ve seen it). Our “spirit” does not “die” (like our bodies, i.e. “flesh). God gave us our spirit – it comes FROM HIM! Does anyone believe that whatever (man's "spirit") emanates from Almighty God can DIE? When He is LIFE ITSELF?

There is a clear connection between the breath that is in man and his spirit.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust (body) of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath (spirit) of life; and man became a living soul.

Job 27:3 All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;

Job 34:14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;

Isaiah 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

From the moment of birth until death our life is in his hands. We have no power either to retain that life or to prevent our death.

[Ecclesiastes 8:8 There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it.]

While the Scriptures clearly demonstrate a distinct difference between the heart [a faculty] and the spirit [a substance] in purpose, a comparison between the heart and the spirit reveals that they both have many of the same characteristics.

The following verses contain both the words heart and spirit together.

Exodus 28:3 And thou shalt speak unto all that are wise hearted, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom, that they may make Aaron's garments to consecrate him, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.

Exodus 35:21 And they came, every one whose heart stirred him up, and every one whom his spirit made willing, and they brought the LORD'S offering to the work of the tabernacle of the congregation, and for all his service, and for the holy garments.

Deuteronomy 2:30 But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.

Joshua 5:1 And it came to pass, when all the kings of the Amorites, which were on the side of Jordan westward, and all the kings of the Canaanites, which were by the sea, heard that the LORD had dried up the waters of Jordan from before the children of Israel, until we were passed over, that their heart melted, neither was there spirit in them any more, because of the children of Israel.

Job 34:14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;

Psalms 34:18 The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.

Psalms 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

Psalms 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

Psalms 77:6 I call to remembrance my song in the night: I commune with mine own heart: and my spirit made diligent search.

Psalms 78:8 And might not be as their fathers, a stubborn and rebellious generation; a generation that set not their heart aright, and whose spirit was not stedfast with God.

Psalms 143:4 Therefore is my spirit overwhelmed within me; my heart within me is desolate.

Proverbs 15:13 A merry heart maketh a cheerful countenance: but by sorrow of the heart the spirit is broken.

Proverbs 17:22 A merry heart doeth good like a medicine: but a broken spirit drieth the bones.

Ecclesiastes 1:17 And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit.

Isaiah 57:15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

Isaiah 65:14 Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit.

Ezekiel 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

Ezekiel 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Ezekiel 21:7 And it shall be, when they say unto thee, Wherefore sighest thou? that thou shalt answer, For the tidings; because it cometh: and every heart shall melt, and all hands shall be feeble, and every spirit shall faint, and all knees shall be weak as water: behold, it cometh, and shall be brought to pass, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Mark 2:8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?

Luke 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

1Peter 3:4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

Here are some additional verses on man’s spirit (I have not listed all 134 verses):

OLD TESTAMENT

Job 27:3 All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;

Job 32:8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

Job 34:14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;

Psalms 31:5 Into thine hand I commit my spirit: thou hast redeemed me, O LORD God of truth.

Ecclesiastes 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Ecclesiastes 8:8 There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it.

Isaiah 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

Daniel 7:15 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.

Zechariah 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

NEW TESTAMENT

Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

Mark 15:37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.

Luke 8:55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Acts 5:5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

Acts 5:10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Acts 12:23 And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

1Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

2Corinthians 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

1Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the
joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

{NOTE: The words spirit and ghost are used interchangeably in the King James Bible. Also note: Where would our understanding of man’s “spirit” be without the Old Testament? Hmmm?}

After studying all of the verses pertaining to man’s heart, mind, conscience, soul, and “spirit”, I believe the following:

I believe that when a lost person dies (in any Dispensation) their body goes into the ground; their soul goes to Hell; and their spirit returns to God (Who gave it - Job 33:4, Ecclesiastes 12:7). When an Old Testament saint died his body went into the ground; his soul went to Paradise (Hebrews - Abraham’s Bosom); and his spirit went back to God (Who gave it - Job 33:4, Ecclesiastes 12:7). And when a New Testament saint dies his body goes into the ground; his soul goes to be with God; and his spirit returns to God (Who gave it - Job 33:4, Ecclesiastes 12:7).

Could it be that in our haste to boost our conviction that abortion is a heinous crime, that we have overlooked the Scriptural teaching about man’s “spirit”? Abortion is a detestable act and obviously against the Bible teaching about a child being a gift from God [Genesis 33:5]. No true and genuine Bible believer could “approve” of such a sin. But, we must not let our “convictions” about abortion “cloud” our understanding (what little there is) about man’s “spirit”.

[atlas]

George,

I agree with you 100% - I too don't care what any of those people you mentioned (or any one else, for that matter) says about this issue. However, I do want to know "what saith the Scripture"? And in your initial Thread (and all of your subsequent Posts) you gave us very little Scripture and a whole lot of "opinion".

I am glad we agree. Yet Gen. 27 is an open and shut case on it own.

What scripture do I have to use to prove that Ruckman takes Gen. 2:7 out of context other than Gen. 2:7?

Adam was never born, we all were born.

Adam was made from dirt, we were not.

God breathed on him, God did breath not on us.

What other Bible do I need to prove that he takes Gen. 2:7 out of context other than Gen. 2:7?

Gen. 2:7 applies to Adam not every man that was ever born. This is an open an shut case with Gen. 2:7 it's self. I do not need 50 Bible verses to see that he takes Gen. 2:7 out of context.

I do not need more Bible verses to tell me that no person alive today was made of dirt.


Atlas

[Brother Tim]

Atlas, I am going to answer your questions addressed to me in post #40, though I have no idea why I am the subject of them. I have said that I believe that a child becomes a living soul at conception. I have not even once expressed disagreement with you on the points. I only disagree with your attitude.

You asked: (my answers are in red)

Dose Ruckman take Gen 2:7 out of context?

yes or no. [YES]

Dose Gen 2:7 apply to you? [NO]

Did God make you out of dirt [you actually mean "dust" to be exact]? [MY BODY IS MADE OUT OF THE SAME ELEMENTS AS DUST & GOD DEVELOPED IT IN MY MOTHER'S WOMB, THEREFORE, YES]

yes or no [ANSWERED ABOVE?]

Did God breath into you the breath of life? [NOT DIRECTLY]

yes or no [ANSWERED ABOVE]

Who dose Gen. 2:7 apply to? [ADAM]


You seem to be far more worried that I may have misstated what Ruckman has said, yet Ruckman taking Gen. 2:7 100% out of context seems to be just fine with this. Why is this the case? This is what I'd like to know? [AGAIN, I HAVE SAID NOTHING BEFORE NOW FOR OR AGAINST DR. RUCKMAN - I DO BELIEVE THAT HE IS IN ERROR IN HIS POSITION.]

I will continue to defend my position on the question of when one becomes a living soul in the thread by that name. I am not interested in discussing Dr. Ruckman in further. Every time his name comes up, so do tempers.

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by pbiwolski

[B] Please substitute "at birth" to the answer to the first question.

Thanks for the clarification.