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Old 03-04-2008, 03:03 PM
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James said in Ja. :17-18,

“Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.”

Faith and belief are two different things. For example, if I were to tell you that if you will go down to my bank and give them your name and social security no. they will give you a million dollars. You can believe that what I said is true but if you don’t go down to the bank and give them my name and ss your believing will not get you the million dollars.

Faith is an action word. Jesus told his disciples in John 11:24,

“What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.”

When do I believe that I have the things that I pray for? When I pray!
If I have the word of God that I can have something then I should know that when I ask Him for them I have them. This is faith in action because my faith is in His word and when I receive the things I pray for I no longer need faith for them because I have them.

Therefore, if I keep asking God for the same thing over and over guess what? I am not asking in faith because if I believe His word I know I have the things that I ask Him for. (1 John 5:14-15)

Paul said in Eph. 2:8-9,

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.”

We have been saved by the grace of God by the second Adam, Jesus, and our faith in what God accomplish through Jesus on the cross. The faith that we use to believe this was even given to us by God. God designed it this way so no man can boast that he was saved because of something that man did.

Jesus said in John 6:65, (KJV)

“Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.”


“That’s why I told you that no one can come to me unless it be granted him by the Father.”

Religion tells us to go out and save some souls. Or how many souls have you saved this year? None!! You don’t have the power to save a soul. You can the word of God to that person but if the Holy Spirit doesn’t draw that person to God he won’t obey the gospel.
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Old 03-04-2008, 03:51 PM
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Default How God Draws ALL men

Religion tells us to go out and save some souls. Or how many souls have you saved this year? None!! You don’t have the power to save a soul. You can the word of God to that person but if the Holy Spirit doesn’t draw that person to God he won’t obey the gospel.
True you cannot save a soul. How does the Holy Spirit draw a man, THE WORD OF GOD.

A sinner hears the Word of God and he must make a choice to obey the Word of God. It is not that hard

Here is a classic misused verse by Calvinist, who by the way never use simple hermeneutics, the law of context.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

They never use the next verse. How does God draw them?

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

The Word of God draws men. It is the Word of God that men reject. This is why you better make sure you use the Word of God, and not some Modern perversion. A modern perversion "does not" draw men. That is why there is no conviction in today's modern version Churches.

Old 03-05-2008, 12:08 AM
grace to me
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Paul said in Eph. 2:8-9,

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.”

we are saved through faith , and that , that what ? that faith is not of yourselves , it is a gift of God . not of works - if it was our faith it would be by works .
Old 03-05-2008, 06:13 AM
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The salvation is the gift of God - received by faith.
Old 03-05-2008, 09:20 AM
grace to me
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are we not justified by the faith of Christ? Gal.2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

we believe in Christ that we might be justified by the faith of Christ --does not say in order to get justified, its mearly stating a fact if you believe you are justified , the new versions -- every one from the new kj to the jws bible all say you are justified by your faith in Christ , they totally leave out what Jesus did for us on calvary and make you trust in yourself instead of Christ .
im not very good at explaining this .

if we are dead in tresspasses and sin , wouldn't the new birth have to take place before the belief ? what im saying is how can you do anything if your dead?
i believe the faith that is the gift of God in eph. 2:8-9 is the faith of Christ.
all the new perversions change this to our faith in is another verse that the new versions change to our faith in Christ.

Rom. 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Old 03-05-2008, 09:44 AM
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Diligent Diligent is offline
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Have you read The Other Side of Calvinism? I ask because I used to be a hard-line Calvinist (believed Unconditional Election, Irresistable Grace, etc) and so I understand the power of that "system" of theology. It took me a long time to start questioning it, but finally I got tired of blowing off verses like these:
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
I finally got tired of treating this verse (and others like it spoken by our Lord) as disingenuous -- if Christ knows we can't freely come of our will then why does he make the offer?

Anyway, I decided to read the book The Other Side of Calvinism and finally I realized the system of Calvinism is made by man, not from the Bible. Vance's discourse on Ephesians ch. 1 essentially answered it all for me, and the entire book helped me have a better understanding of God's grace and salvation.

It's my experience that no amount of debating will change minds on this topic. For me, it was a matter of study, which is why I wonder if you've read the book, and suggest you check it out if you haven't.

Many of God's best servants were/are Calvinists (Spurgeon comes to mind), but I think they are so in spite of their systematic theology, and should endeavour for a greater knowledge of God's grace.
Old 03-05-2008, 10:34 AM
grace to me
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diligent , i grew up in a calvinist church and i could see errs like infant baptism that wern't scriptural , i overheard my dad and my grandpa talking about baptism ,grandpa was a baptist . so i went looking for a different church, what i was looking for was a loving church since God is love i figured that his church would be manifested by love , well i ended up in a charismatic church they baptized by imersion , then things started happening they told me the way to study was get as many versions as i could and compare them , and i got so confused and such a headache , they trusted their emotions , well i seen an ad in the paper on how to study the bible so i went and he showed how the kjv was the word of God and how God preserved it perfect and we could trust it so i spent 6 months praying about it and asking God to show me if this was true , one day i oped up a greek interlinear and read the forward which i never read and there it was exactly as pastor mott had said wescott & hort were behind it , etc. then i went to some bible encyclopedias i had bought while in the charismatic church , and they said the same thing and said that the jws bible was from the same texts as the modern versions so i approached the pastor at the charismatic church about the differances between the versions and he said it doesn't matter as long as you love the Lord. right there i knew i was done going there , so i ended up joining the church pastor mott started here , then everything fell apart my wife left me and said i would never see my son again , well about 3 weeks later she came back and her parents won't have nothing to do with her , i shared with my best friend that the kjv is the Word of God and showed him the difference between them and he no longer speaks to me . ill have to check that book out . is the pastor that started our church.
Old 03-05-2008, 08:00 PM
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Biblestudent Biblestudent is offline
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Most theology books I've read were Calvinist, and I was willing to accept it with a child-like faith if Calvinism was Biblical. I'm glad somebody gave my father that book, The Other Side of Calvinism. So far, that was the most exhaustive work on the issue I've ever read. Second to Vance's discussion on Ephesians, his explanations of Biblical usages of words, such as "ordained" (Acts 14:38; Mr 3:14 w/ Jn. 6:70 & Jn 17:12), etc. cleared things up to me.

Last edited by Biblestudent; 03-05-2008 at 08:01 PM. Reason: change "his" to "Vance"
Old 10-31-2008, 01:48 PM
Join Date: Oct 2008
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Looks like previous thread:

In Christ,

John M. Whalen

Last edited by JMWHALEN; 10-31-2008 at 02:13 PM.

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