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  #11  
Old 07-26-2009, 02:11 PM
custer custer is offline
 
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If God's intention for marriage is one man and one woman, then divorce and polygamy are deviations from God's will and same-sex marriage is just a plain out perversion of it. All through out the New Testament books whenever the topic of marriage and divorce are written about the indication is one man for one woman. On the topic of polygamy, why do folks keep running to passages in the OT that were written for the Jew under the Law to somehow try and apply them to the church age saint?
Very good points!!!

One thing we should consider in that hypothetical situation with the ex-Muslim/now-Christian man with several wives...we may not be able to come up with a scriptural "remedy." It wasn't right for him to marry more than one woman and it's not right for him to put any of them away...(Besides, he'd have to be an oil tycoon to pay all the alimony and child support!)

When Adam sinned, there was no way of avoiding the consequences - we can not do anything to "fix" it...now we just have to live with it. My husband and I married out of God's will twenty-one years ago - should we seek to be loosed or should we live the remainder of our married life, out of the perfect will of God? As sinful beings, we can get ourselves into messes that do not have a solution...call it part of the law of sowing and reaping!

Pam
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  #12  
Old 07-26-2009, 05:35 PM
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Jassy Jassy is offline
 
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Poor Jassy. I am sure she did not intend for her thread to morph into what it did!
Sister Amanda,

The above is only a tiny partial quote - but I noticed my name in there.

Within the constraints of the Forum, you have the freedom (remember Christ gives us freedom in GRACE) to morph an original topic into whatever you like or into whatever pleases you or, perhaps, whatever you can find Bible verses to wrap around. It isn't up to me to oversee or rein-in posts to conform to whatever the topic has been. As for whether or not I'll participate in that, well, that's just another freedom (in GRACE) that I have from our Lord, to choose NOT to participate, when I see that it is not edifying to do so. Even so, I'm not going to misuse that grace.

Remember, in Him, there is no CONDEMNATION! (Romans 8:1)

As for "polygamy" and the like, see my post #96 under the original topic of "Acceptable/Unacceptable Reasons for Divorce." As brother George has said, straining at gnats and being legalistic is what you have labored to do. I've had a very different personal experience that gives me a whole lot of insight into this topic as well as what it has morphed into. I do not feel at all needful to go into detail on that, since - from what I see - it would morph into something completely unintended.

I praise the Lord that He has called me out to witness to people that Westernized Christians usually scorn, attack, and/or ostracize. He has given me the experience, skills and temperament necessary to witness to such people. Indeed, I consider it a privilege and blessing that I'm given the opportunities to do so.

One has to be pretty thick-skinned to withstand the insults and mud that gets slung by people who immediately attack, when you tell them that you are a Christian. However, I leave it to the Holy Spirit to lead me and guide me, individually, with how to witness to each person. Some people may require years of patient ministering to, in order to bring them to Christ. It isn't up to me. Sometimes I may never see the fruit - but who knows if someone else may see it one day? It matters not to me to receive any praise or to glory in it. It gives me JOY to see one brought to Christ - whether I've had any hand in it or not. God's hand is ALWAYS in it. He is the only one to receive the GLORY and PRAISE.

Jassy
  #13  
Old 07-26-2009, 09:02 PM
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Amanda S. Amanda S. is offline
 
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I praise the Lord that He has called me out to witness to people that Westernized Christians usually scorn, attack, and/or ostracize. He has given me the experience, skills and temperament necessary to witness to such people. Indeed, I consider it a privilege and blessing that I'm given the opportunities to do so.
Praise the Lord indeed! Amen sister...shame on any Christian who would scorn, attack or ostracize another believer or an unbeliever for that matter!

I will be praying for your ministry.

  #14  
Old 07-26-2009, 09:10 PM
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Bro. Bill and Bro. Paul,
You 2 are obviously correct on the slavery issue. The slavery that we are well aquainted with was in no way voluntary and certainly fell into the men stealing category. Thanks for pointing that out.

I talked to my pastor this afternoon and asked what he had to offer on this hypothetical Muslim and the first thing he said was "What did the vows say that they took?"...I thought that interesting!

Here is what I found was the common Muslim wedding vows:

Quote:
Muslim couples do not generally recite vows but rather listen to the words of the imam, or cleric (although any adult male Muslim may officiate), who speaks about the significance of the commitment of the marriage and the couple's responsibilities toward each other and Allah. The bride and groom are asked three times if they accept each other in marriage according to the terms of their traditional marriage contract, or Nikah. Then they sign, the marriage is sealed, and the gathered congregation may bless them.

However, some Muslim brides and grooms do choose to also exchange vows. Here is a common (quite traditional) recitation:

Bride: "I, ______, offer you myself in marriage and in accordance with the instructions of the Holy Koran and the Holy Prophet, peace and blessing be upon him. I pledge, in honesty and with sincerity, to be for you an obedient and faithful wife."

Groom: "I pledge, in honesty and sincerity, to be for you a faithful and helpful husband."
Now does this change anything at all?
  #15  
Old 07-26-2009, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Amanda S. View Post
Praise the Lord indeed! Amen sister...shame on any Christian who would scorn, attack or ostracize another believer or an unbeliever for that matter!

I will be praying for your ministry.

Thank you very kindly, sister Amanda! I truly covet your prayers.

Jassy
  #16  
Old 07-27-2009, 09:41 AM
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Sis. Pam...

I do think that you've hit on something here...You stated it so simply without out of context verses that it really did hit me upside the head LOL

Consider this:

RECOMMENDATIONS

How, then, should the African Christian Church promote monogamy while allowing the polygamy of converts to remain? The following recommendations are offered toward the implementation of this alternative.

1. The church should undertake biblical sex education and marriage counseling for teachers, church-workers, youth, engaged couples, people in early years of marriage, elderly couples, and converted polygamists. The teachings should affirm monogamy as Godís ideal. Celibacy, for example, must be taught as an option for singles. Christian parents should assist with the education.
2. Childlessness is a critical pastoral problem in African society because the idea of procreation in marriage still dominates and overshadows the solid principle of authentic married love. Marriages rarely last without children. The church should encourage ďadoptionĒ within the clan as an alternative to childless couples.
3. The church should combat chronic diseases like tuberculosis and typhoid fever which kill infants at a high rate.
4. The church should set up vocational training centers for unmarried women. Here, women are to be assisted to define their place in the church and society, recognizing new emerging roles for African women.
5. The church should set up a fund to support widows.
6. The church should shape and contribute toward social transformation of the African culture in all fields with respect to the full recognition of the equal dignity of men and women. The free-will and basic worth and dignity of individuals, especially of women and young people, needs to be deeply respected in a developing African society.
7. The church should take an active interest in drafting just legislation concerning marriage, divorce, remarriage, and inheritance.
8. The church should teach good methods of family planning.
9. Converted polygamists should affirm at baptism that they will teach monogamy and not advance polygamy.

The proposed alternative has missiological, pastoral, and theological implications. First, it is a witness to the gracious God who meets humans where they are and accepts them as they are, and then by His Spirit transforms their lives. It grants all of us the opportunity to manifest our gratitude for Godís enduring patience for us by learning to be more patient with the different ways of other peoples and by allowing them also the time required for the leaven of the Gospel to become gradually more active in their different cultures. Second, the African Christian Church will experience growth as many polygamists and their families, including the chiefs, will be encouraged to join the church. They will be a powerful and influential witness to their community. Third, the Africans will fully embrace and feel at home with Christ as their truly incarnated Savior on the basis of faith alone. It will grant them the basic tools for assessing their own cultural heritage, for making their own contribution to Christian life and thought, and also for testing the genuineness and Christian character of that contribution.

Fourth, this alternative will guide foreign missionaries working among Africans. It will be a rebuke to missionaries who promote Western tradition rather than the Word of God. It will reflect the importance of taking the cultural context of the recipients of the Gospel seriously. Fifth, it will aid Bible colleges and seminaries in Ghana in the training of pastors and the development of a balanced biblical theology of mission. And finally, it will aid the Western church in dealing with marriage and polygamy in their context, where simultaneous polygamy is on a steady rise.

Here is the full article. http://www.directionjournal.org/article/?1486
  #17  
Old 07-27-2009, 11:06 AM
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Sis Pam,

Well after discussing with my husband on his lunch break I am just so confused LoL I think I'll have it figured out and BAM! I am rethinking again. Then I'll get it almost figured out and BAM! another brick upside the head LoL

One thing to remember too is the law...it is illegal to be married to more than 1 wife in this country...I do think that should be considered.
  #18  
Old 07-27-2009, 01:18 PM
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I still do not have an answer I am happy with...

This idea that something is wrong...is not God's will...was not God's plan from the beginning...IS not God's plan now or ever...is ok because of the consequences are just disastrous is not sitting well with me. But given that the consequences ARE disastrous I don't feel comfortable coming down hard on the "offenders"...

It reminds me of instances of an alcoholics or drug addicts that are converted. It is right that they quit their substance abuses...Do I expect them to quit and never turn back? No, not really...Should they? Of course...Can they? Not in every case...

Being in a family where everyone of my truly saved extended family smoked I can understand the hold these things can have on you.

The same can be true for polygamist marriages and the fall-out from leaving their families.

Pam, I liked your comparison of your marriage to your husband but there is nothing to suggest we should divorce because we were out of God's will when we married (1 man 1 wife). The same can be said for other sins...When we are saved we are not told to fix all the things we did wrong before.

But knowing how the Bible is very clear as to what it considers a marriage is a polygamist living in fornication when he keeps his wives and what / if any bearing does that have on the church and the other Christians/polygamists.

We need to establish -

Truth

Sin

Repentance

Being very careful to heed this verse:

Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
  #19  
Old 07-27-2009, 01:27 PM
CKG CKG is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Amanda S. View Post
Sis. Pam...

I do think that you've hit on something here...You stated it so simply without out of context verses that it really did hit me upside the head LOL

Consider this:

RECOMMENDATIONS

How, then, should the African Christian Church promote monogamy while allowing the polygamy of converts to remain? The following recommendations are offered toward the implementation of this alternative.

1. The church should undertake biblical sex education and marriage counseling for teachers, church-workers, youth, engaged couples, people in early years of marriage, elderly couples, and converted polygamists. The teachings should affirm monogamy as Godís ideal. Celibacy, for example, must be taught as an option for singles. Christian parents should assist with the education.
2. Childlessness is a critical pastoral problem in African society because the idea of procreation in marriage still dominates and overshadows the solid principle of authentic married love. Marriages rarely last without children. The church should encourage ďadoptionĒ within the clan as an alternative to childless couples.
3. The church should combat chronic diseases like tuberculosis and typhoid fever which kill infants at a high rate.
4. The church should set up vocational training centers for unmarried women. Here, women are to be assisted to define their place in the church and society, recognizing new emerging roles for African women.
5. The church should set up a fund to support widows.
6. The church should shape and contribute toward social transformation of the African culture in all fields with respect to the full recognition of the equal dignity of men and women. The free-will and basic worth and dignity of individuals, especially of women and young people, needs to be deeply respected in a developing African society.
7. The church should take an active interest in drafting just legislation concerning marriage, divorce, remarriage, and inheritance.
8. The church should teach good methods of family planning.
9. Converted polygamists should affirm at baptism that they will teach monogamy and not advance polygamy.

The proposed alternative has missiological, pastoral, and theological implications. First, it is a witness to the gracious God who meets humans where they are and accepts them as they are, and then by His Spirit transforms their lives. It grants all of us the opportunity to manifest our gratitude for Godís enduring patience for us by learning to be more patient with the different ways of other peoples and by allowing them also the time required for the leaven of the Gospel to become gradually more active in their different cultures. Second, the African Christian Church will experience growth as many polygamists and their families, including the chiefs, will be encouraged to join the church. They will be a powerful and influential witness to their community. Third, the Africans will fully embrace and feel at home with Christ as their truly incarnated Savior on the basis of faith alone. It will grant them the basic tools for assessing their own cultural heritage, for making their own contribution to Christian life and thought, and also for testing the genuineness and Christian character of that contribution.

Fourth, this alternative will guide foreign missionaries working among Africans. It will be a rebuke to missionaries who promote Western tradition rather than the Word of God. It will reflect the importance of taking the cultural context of the recipients of the Gospel seriously. Fifth, it will aid Bible colleges and seminaries in Ghana in the training of pastors and the development of a balanced biblical theology of mission. And finally, it will aid the Western church in dealing with marriage and polygamy in their context, where simultaneous polygamy is on a steady rise.

Here is the full article. http://www.directionjournal.org/article/?1486
That is good guidance, but my question is (and I'm not trying to be a smart-aleck) which "the church" are you talking about? Sometimes you can't even get two KJV churches to work together or agree on matters. I think it is good guidance for individual missionaries and churches to consider, but I always get a little uneasy when people start talking about what "the church" ought to be doing.

Concerning the original topic of polygamy I think the guidance is good. If a man who has multiple wives gets saved and he lives in country in which that is permitted then you just about have to let him continue in that condition, yet at the same time if he really wants to follow the Lord then he will listen to the teachings of God's Word and be taught about God's will for marriage so that he can pass down to his children God's will of one man for one woman.
  #20  
Old 07-27-2009, 01:35 PM
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Amanda S. Amanda S. is offline
 
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Bro. Craig,

You are correct of course to question which "church"......Honestly I didn't look

I did find the comments interesting and as I said earlier...I don't have it all figured out...ugh...Frankly I don't know that it can be figured out. As you said it's hard enough to get 2 KJV churches to agree let alone denominations, Christians etc...

I just thought I'd share the things I had come up with on the topic. Thank you for pointing that out Brother.
 

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