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  #11  
Old 04-19-2009, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nehemiah View Post
Hello Everyone,
"I'm Nehemiah; I'm somewhat new here; I'm very analytical and word alert; I believe THE ENTIRE WORD of GOD ("All Scripture...") to be just as Literal, as some others believe it to be figurative; my mentality is to keep it simple enough for me to understand it (KISS), as I am definitely NOT the sharpest knife in the drawer; I believe that GOD Says what HE Means, and Meant Everything that HE Has Already Said; and I'd really like your answers to the following questions, along with a very very civilized discussion regarding them:"

1) What happened between Genesis 1:1 ("In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."), and Genesis 1:2a ("And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.")? (Please note: I DO NOT believe the so-called "Evolutionary gap theory"!)

2) Was Adam really only, "the first man... (1Cor. 15:45)"?

3) What was GOD'S Real Purpose for Adam in Genesis 2?

4) Who was Cain's Wife?

5) Who were "the sons of GOD (Gen. 6:2,4;Job 1:6;2:1;38:7)"?

6) Who were "the daughters of men (Gen. 6:2,4)"?
Aloha Nehemiah,

I ALSO BELIEVE "THE ENTIRE WORD of GOD". And so I will attempt to answer your questions, although I am curious as to WHY you are asking them:

Quote:
"1) What happened between Genesis 1:1 ("In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."), and Genesis 1:2a ("And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.")? (Please note: I DO NOT believe the so-called "Evolutionary gap theory"!)"
I too - "DO NOT believe the so-called "Evolutionary gap theory", BUT, on the other hand, since God has chosen to give us very few details about the Creation, I do not spend much time "speculating" as to what could or could not have occurred between Genesis 1 and Genesis 2. What does it matter WHAT I "think" - might (or might not) have happened?

I believe that Almighty God (THE GOD of "the Scripture of truth") created the whole of Creation: The Universe (and all that is within it); the Earth (and all that is within it); and every single living thing that lives above the "firmament" and under "the firmament" (in the universe, in the air, in the sea, on the surface, and below the surface). All of life and creation came from God, and there is nothing made that was made without Him. [John 1:1-4]

I also believe (according to the Bible) that the Earth has undergone some CHANGES since the ORIGINAL CREATION. And God has had different "COVENANTS" with men down through the ages:

#1. Earth before the fall of man: No Bible, Possibly no rain, no thorns, no thistles, no pain, no sickness, no death - Paradise on earth.

#2.
Earth after the fall: No Bible, Possibly no rain, extreme longevity, the earth cursed (thorns & thistles, etc.), pain, sickness and death ushered in - Paradise lost.

#3. Earth soon after the flood: No Bible, rain, diversity of tongues, diminishing longevity.

#4. Abraham to Moses: No Bible, God chooses a people for Himself – The "Hebrews" (later known as Israelites, i.e. Jews).

#5. Moses to the Lord Jesus Christ:
Old Testament, God makes a nation out of His chosen people - "Israel".

#6. Death, Burial, and Resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ to the present: New Testament, God temporarily sets aside the nation of Israel – [His chosen people], and takes out a people from among the Gentiles for His Son – (the church - the body of Christ).

#7. The future of the world and mankind
: Israel will be reinstated, Christ will rule and reign over ALL the Earth and Universe, and we will rule with Him (for we shall be like Him) - Paradise will be restored.

Quote:
"2) Was Adam really only, "the first man... (1Cor. 15:45)"?
You answered your own question: YES! According to the Holy Scriptures - Adam was the very "FIRST MAN" (and ONLY MAN "created" by God)
[1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.]

Quote:
"3) What was GOD'S Real Purpose for Adam in Genesis 2?"
Adam was to take care of the Garden. [Genesis 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.]

Quote:
"4) Who was Cain's Wife?"
The Bible does not address the issue, and so it remains for us to either believe that Cain married one of his "sister's" (one of Adam & Eve's daughters), or God made more women (out of who's rib?) for Adam's sons. (the Bible doesn't even "hint" at this "solution", which would be pure "speculation" on our part)

Quote:
"5) Who were "the sons of GOD (Gen. 6:2,4;Job 1:6;2:1;38:7)"?"
There are only 11 places in the Scriptures where the term "the sons of God" is used:

Genesis 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

Genesis 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Romans 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Philippians 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.


The above verses "qualify WHO are "the sons of God".

In the beginning - "the sons of God" were "present" at the creation [Job 38:1-7]- so they cannot be just Adams "sons"; or Seth's "sons", or Enos' "sons" (men were NOT "present" when God "laid the foundations of the Earth"). The "sons of God" are God's "SONS"!

Quote:
"6) Who were "the daughters of men (Gen. 6:2,4)"?"
Again, you answered your own question. To put it as simply as I can - "the daughters of men" are the female offspring of Adam, Cain, Enoch, Lamech, Seth, Enos, Cainan, etc., etc. The "daughters of men" are - "THE DAUGHTERS OF MEN"!

As to your statement: "I believe THE ENTIRE WORD of GOD ("All Scripture...") to be just as Literal, as some others believe it to be figurative; my mentality is to keep it simple enough for me to understand it (KISS)"

Since the words "literal" and "figurative" are NOT in the Holy Bible I subscribe to the Scriptural "command" concerning the word of God:

[2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.]

I seek to "rightly divide the word of truth". If there is an "allegory", or a "parable", I take them as such. If there is a "type", or a "picture", or an "illustration", I take them as such also. In other words, I try my hardest to "rightly divide the word of truth".

In my lesson on "How to Study the Bible", I said:

The Bible (The Scriptures) = A Timeless Book!

In the past: The Old Testament filled the needs of the Jews and the nation of Israel. After Israel’s rejection of Christ the Messiah, It also served the needs of Christians in the early churches and all of the churches throughout history.

Today: The complete Bible serves our needs today and will continue to do so until the Translation of the church of God.

Future: It will be sufficient for the tribulation saints and will be used in the millennium and throughout all eternity.

All Scripture has 3 applications:

#1. Historical

#2. Spiritual

#3. Doctrinal

All Scripture must be taken literally – unless it is impossible to do so.
John 6:53
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

The Scriptures are not to be privately “interpreted”.
2Peter 1:19
We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

All Doctrines derived from the Scriptures must be drawn from and built upon Scripture only.
Isaiah 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weanedfrom the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10
For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Isaiah 28:13
But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

I have politely and courteously answered your questions; perhaps you will have the courtesy answer mine:

WHY do you ask these questions?

WHAT purpose do these questions serve, if all things are to be done for edification? {Romans 14:19; 1Corinthians 10:23; 14:5,12,26; 2Corinthians 12:19; Ephesians 4:12,16,29; 1Thessalonians 5:11; 1Timothy 1:4}

I too welcome you to our Forum. I do hope that you will be a source of edification for all of the brethren here.


The King James Bible Page SwordSearcher Bible Software
  #12  
Old 04-19-2009, 06:13 PM
Winman Winman is offline
 
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Nehemiah asked:

Quote:

Now then, according to you, "Verse one is an overview, an introductory precept, the rest of the chapter describes what occurs in verse one". If that is so, please then explain, How, THE MOST PERFECT "GOD (WHO IS 'LIGHT, and in HIM is NO Darkness at all.') Created the Heaven and the Earth", and all of a sudden, it became, "the earth. . .without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep"???

GOD is not the author of confusion, yet "the earth" that HE Created became, in just the second verse of Genesis One, 1) formlessness, confusion, unreality, emptiness; a) formlessness (of primeval earth); 1) nothingness, empty space; b) that which is empty or unreal (of idols) (fig); c) wasteland, wilderness (of solitary places); d) place of chaos; which is what the phrase, "without form" means, right?

Now, dare I bring into the discussion, the word, "void (emptiness, void, waste)"? Now surely you'll agree that you cannot 'empty' that which never was contained, right? Nor can that which never was be 'wasted', can it?
Notice I highlighted the word "became" in your quote. This is what gap theorists do, they claim that "was" in Gen 1:2 should be rightly translated "became". Fredoheaven said this very thing to me on another thread, and it is also said on David Regan's site that Chette recommends. In fact, the majority of sites that I have seen that support the gap use this very argument.

You originally said you believe God means what he says. I agree. And God knows the difference between the word "was" and "became". And God preserved his perfect word for us that says "was" in Genesis 1:2. That settles it for me, I do not dare try to correct God's Word. This is my biggest problem with gappers, they claim to believe God's Word, but subtly suggest it has errors. We know who the subtle one is.

And Nehemiah, God took six whole days to make the heavens and the earth. Why? He could have spoken everything into existence in a moment. There is obviously a reason God took his time during creation. It has set the pattern for mankind since we came into being, we work six days, and rest one day. And I read once that the gestation periods for all animals can be divided into 7 day weeks. So, I do not fully understand this, but I accept it.

The creation was a process. First he made the earth which is solid, but it was covered with water. Then he made the light. Then he made the firmament. Then he made the dry land "Earth" and the "Seas" appear. Then he made the grass, herbs, and fruit trees. But guess what? There was no Sun, and plants need the sunlight to survive. So, to man this doesn't make sense, but that is the way God did it whether we think that is backwards or not. Then on the fourth day he made the Sun, Moon, and Stars. You said Earth was incomplete? Well, so was the starry heaven until day four! It was "void" of the Sun, Moon, and stars! Then on the fifth day he brought forth the life in the seas and the fowls. Why did he create the sealife and fowls on the same day? Why didn't he make the fowls on the day he made the animals that live on the dry land? Birds live on land, or at least they breathe air, makes more sense to me to make them when he made the beasts and creeping things and cattle on the sixth day. But God is wiser than me or any man. Then he made man.

God could have made all this in an instant. The earth was not truly complete until it was all there. God is not the author of confusion, how can a person say the world is confused? All life depends upon each other and works together. The bees need the flowers, but the flowers need the bees. It is not confused whatsoever, only now that sin has come into the world, now all creation groans. Now things grow old and perish and whither. But at the end of six days it was all "very good" as God said himself.

Last edited by Winman; 04-19-2009 at 06:34 PM.
  #13  
Old 04-19-2009, 09:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nehemiah View Post
Not so; nowhere, nowhere, nowhere, in ALL of Scripture are "angels" ever referred to as "the sons of GOD". . .NOT even in the Book of Job.

In fact Hebrews 1:5 makes it crystal clear, "For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?"
If not angels, then who are the "sons of God" in this passage?

Genesis 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
  #14  
Old 04-20-2009, 01:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish View Post
Really, too bad---I find his commentary on Genesis to be very interesting and thought provoking to say the least, but I'm wondering did you read the section I asked about before you threw it in the garbage... no matter, if you (or anyone else) wants to see more about the creatures in Genesis 6, please refer to post no. 5 and 6 in the Giants thread, those articles are not perfect but the subject is pretty well presented and I think provide a good alternative to the sons of Seth position. (providing your mind is open to it, of course).
Brother Parrish, I wish I had all of Dr. Ruckman's Commentaries, as I said, he's much more into comparing Scripture with Scripture but you have to pay attention to where the Scripture says what it says versus where the man peeks through. Dr. Ruckman does not share my Biblical convictions on matters of ethnicity, shall we say. My great, great granddaddy trafficked in human beings in the 1840s and 50s and his brother rode with John Mosby, the Gray Ghost. All that has remained of both men's influence on me is a very keen interest in guerrilla warfare.

Brother, my mind is Closed For Repairs. Where I feel it incumbent to reply to subsidiary precepts not pertaining to our crucified and risen Saviour I give my opinion with Scripture references and move on. I am genuinely baffled by the angel troubling the waters in John 5 and what Paul meant in I Corinthians 15:29 regarding "...baptism for the dead". We are taught by similitudes, I am having a problem finding one for John 5 and it's significance. They are mysteries to my pea brain, but something I don't dwell on for any undue length of time.

Thank you for the links, and I will look at them and study them.

Grace and peace to you my friend

Tony
  #15  
Old 04-20-2009, 03:09 AM
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II Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
Titus 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Brother Nehemiah, I am sorry my answers to you were unsatisfactory. You seem to have a preconceived notion of what the answers should be so that when another Christian gives you the quite Scriptural, prayed for and prayed-over answers, you wish to contend with those answers and the person who gave them. Several of your questions were seductive and mind-numbing in their simplicity of their solution, the remainder was one rhetorical and the rest of a nature that are not easily arrived at, and to me, irrelevant to the gospel of Christ. We are not going to be ministers of the reconciliation or be ambassadors for Christ explaining where the dinosaurs went, whether or not angels came to earth and that they have the ability to reproduce or that their spirits "possessing" the bodies of men produces genetic mutations of great size is not going to get one soul into Christ.

Colossians 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
I Corinthians 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
I Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

In my lifetime I have wasted about ten minutes discussing the "Gap Theory", and like the Granville-Sharp "theory" of translation that derails many readings in the KJV, particularly Revelation 1:6(the KJV "...God and His Father..." versus ...his God and Father..." of the corrupt translations), I find the identity of the "...sons of God" of Genesis 6 and the "Gap Theory" has yet, in my opinion, to have made one convert to the gospel of Christ.

Matthew 22:42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.

My skills at foolish questions were honed on the street and in the door-to-door ministries. My favorite tracts are Fellowship Tract League's JESUS CHRIST OUR SAVIOR and GOD'S LAST NAME IS NOT DAMN:

"What are these?"
"Free literature. Jesus Christ died for your sins. What think ye of Christ?"
"But don't I have to give you and your church all my money?"
"You don't have to give anyone anything, you have to PAY to get VD, this is absolutely free. What think ye of Christ?"
"But what about Swaggart and Bakker?"
"Swaggart and Bakker didn't die for your sins, the Lord Jesus Christ, God manifest in the flesh, died for your sins. What think ye of Christ?"
"But the bible has contradicitons..."
"No, you and I both have contradictions, the Bible has no contradictions. What think ye of Christ?"
"But what happened to the dinosaurs?"
"Someone stole them. What think ye of Christ?"
"But isn't there a gap between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2?"
"No, the gap is between people's ears, what think ye of Christ?"

Like Mars Hill(our pattern for evangelism) some will scoff, some will say, tell me more. We plant seeds in rocky ground that devils sweep away with their lies, some fall on fertile ground and are watered by others, and God gives the increase to all.

"Not so; nowhere, nowhere, nowhere, in ALL of Scripture are "angels" ever referred to as "the sons of GOD". . .NOT even in the Book of Job."

You offer this above outlandish statement with no Scripture to back it up.

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Question One: How does a "star" sing? I'd like Scriptural proof from a Christian who takes the Bible "literally".

The passages in Job 38 above is describing the first creation, God did not make man until the SIXTH day.

Question Two: Who are these "...sons of God..."? in Job 38?

Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

Question Three: What is the efficacy of the devil exalting his throne above a mere astronomical object?

Psalms 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
Hebrews 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Hebrews 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Ephesians 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Hebrews 1:14 effectuively impeaches the angel worship present in popular culture among Gentiles in this Age Of Grace. Angels are for Israel, because I don't need to "inherit" anything, I already have eternal life and salvation.

Who are "...the sons of God..." of Genesis 6? They weren't angels, and I need Scriptural proof of angels being able to co-habitate sexually with human women before I'll believe and teach otherwise.

Brother, how would you like to study the Bible for yourself, and not be dependent on useless and vain contentions with unpleasant people like me? We'll take that up in Part Two.

Grace and peace to you, He is risen, brother.

Tony
  #16  
Old 04-20-2009, 03:40 AM
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Default Nehemiah, Part Two. How To Study The Bible For Yourself

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Nehemiah, all of the men in this thread have approched your questions from the different directions of our individual personalities, however our common foundation is the Scriptures, and where you will find any answer God wishes you to know. He has not yet revealed to me the significance and similitudes of John 5 and the angel, He will if it serves His glory through me. I would ask that you read every reply to you, we are not working against each other here, but compliment each other.

We KJV "Only"s are accused of "double inspiration". Actually, Scripture teaches that God gave the original contant of the Scriptures by inspiration, He preserves His words via copies and translations when the writing material wears out and the languages die, and then His Spirit gives our spirits understanding by His inspiration; That's triple inspiration:

Job 32:8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

Why is it, as The Original Manuscript Frauds like to bleat and call us, why is it we KJV "Onlys" are such "jack-booted Nazis" about changing one word in the Scriptures? You lose the references if you do:

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Isa 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
Isa 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
Mr 10:5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.
Heb 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

We see above that there are precepts given by God, and precepts given by men in Matthew 10.

Ho 12:10 I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.
De 4:16 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,
Ro 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Heb 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
Jas 3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
Ge 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
e 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Ge 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

The Scriptures interpret themselves and answer your questions for you. We look for types, for similitudes, for images and figures. How do I know that we, the Church, the Body of Christ will not have to endure the Tribulation?

Mt 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Lu 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Jesus Christ identifies the Tribulation as "the wrath to come", Paul assures us that we will not have to endure this.

Who is the future Anti-Christ, the Beast?

Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

One apostle was "lost", Judas Iscariot, and Paul identifies him as the Anti-Christ. Jesus and Paul make a pretty good team, don't they?

2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

Your statement that "common sense" is unScriptural is in itself unScriptural. None of the men in this thread are exactly alike, we are "common" in that we all have "common" sense, a sound mind.

Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Mt 2:2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
Mt 2:7 Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, enquired of them diligently what time the star appeared.
Mt 2:9 When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.
Mt 2:10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.

Re 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
Re 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
Re 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
Re 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

So we see that from the Scriptures above, the "star" of Bethlehem that Paul Crouch has wasted so much electricity on speculating and selling books on saying that the "star" was a "comet" or "Saturn" is in actuality an angel.

What are the "seven spirits" of Revelation 3:1? I'm very glad you asked yourself that question:

Isa 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

How did the apostle Paul die? "Tradition' tells us he was executed. "Tradition" tells us Mary was a perpetual virgin too.

Paul was imprisoned in Mamertine Prison, in a pit with a grate for a roof where the guards could walk back and forth and defacate and urinate on the prisoners if they felt like it.

2Ti 4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.

I am ready for another abdominal surgery, it is needed, the time is here for it, but perhaps the physical therapy will make surgery redundant:

2Ti 4:13 The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments.
2Ti 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Paul died of an infection such as pneumonia or other from the unsanitary conditions present in his incarceration. He suffered from the cold, and myself having had pneumonia 21 times in my life can attest to being cold and wanting a "cloke".

I hope you'll carefully study each and every Scripture passge given to you and wish you the best a Christian a can wish for another: That you bear much fruit that He may increase, we may decrease.

Grace and peace to you Nehemiah, this day, and all days.

Tony
  #17  
Old 04-20-2009, 08:18 AM
Bro. Parrish
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Since we're getting off topic and he's not responding anyway...

How do you get pneumonia 21 times...?
do you have a problem with your immune system brother that's gotta be rough...

Last edited by Bro. Parrish; 04-20-2009 at 08:29 AM.
  #18  
Old 04-20-2009, 11:40 AM
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George George is offline
 
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Default Re: "Could There Be a Connection?"

Quote:
"Brother, my mind is Closed For Repairs. Where I feel it incumbent to reply to subsidiary precepts not pertaining to our crucified and risen Saviour I give my opinion with Scripture references and move on. I am genuinely baffled by the angel troubling the waters in John 5 and what Paul meant in I Corinthians 15:29 regarding "...baptism for the dead". We are taught by similitudes, I am having a problem finding one for John 5 and it's significance. They are mysteries to my pea brain, but something I don't dwell on for any undue length of time."
Aloha brother Tony,

I know that this is off topic but . . . I too wonder at some of the same things (and others) that "baffle" you. However, in going through the Bible (this time around) I believe I "get" what "...baptism for the dead" is. Please follow the Scriptures along with me.

We all know (or should know) that 1 Corinthians Chapter 15:1-4 defines "the Gospel (Paul's "Gospel"). However the whole Chapter could be called "The Resurrection Chapter" of the Holy Bible.

Read through Chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians and take note of the phrase: "the dead" [1Corinthians 15:12-13,15-16,20-21,29,32,35,42,52]. Verses 12 through 52 define "THE DEAD".

1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, IF the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

The first thing that has to be done is identify WHO "the dead" are and then WHO are the "they" that are being "baptized for the dead". [And you can be absolutely sure that the Mormons don't have a "clue" about the matter!]

I believe that when a new (born again child of God) Christian is "baptized" (in water) that that "baptism" is a DECLARATION to the world - "the dead" ARE GOING TO RISE AGAIN! "They" are saying: Even though "the dead" are dead and buried, there will come a day WHEN THEY SHALL RISE! And correspondingly (as Paul said) "IF the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?" That is - WHY bother baptizing "for (on the behalf of) the dead", IF "the dead" don't rise?

In other words "Water Baptism" for the church DOES NOT place a born again child of God INTO the body of Christ (The Holy Spirit DID THAT the moment we BELIEVED!); and although it "could be" a PICTURE of the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ (and our identifying with Him); I believe that water baptism "for the dead" is a DECLARATION {by those who are alive, and who are being baptized} to the world that says: "SEE, you may "think" that all those who have died (i.e. "the dead") are dead, buried, and GONE FOREVER, but I am declaring to you: that just like I am buried in this water, and just like I have come up out of the water, so shall ALL of "the dead" also come up out of the grave someday."

"The dead" can no longer speak, but those of us who are alive can. And we can speak with "words" and we can "speak" by way of a "picture" (a physical "illustration"). When a Christian is "baptized for the dead", he (the Christian) is speaking on their behalf (since they can longer speak); he is testifying that "the dead" are NOT going to remain "dead" FOREVER. Read the verse:

1 Corinthians 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

Ask yourself WHO are "the dead"? They are either ALL of "the dead" [
"For as in Adam ALL die,"] or they are ALL of "the dead" in Christ ["even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive"].

"The dead" in Christ can no longer speak, but we can speak. And when we are baptized we are speaking (by way of an "illustration") for "the dead"; and DECLARING to the world that just like we DID NOT STAY UNDER THE WATER, neither shall "the dead" STAY DOWN - "the dead" SHALL RISE AGAIN!


Last edited by George; 04-20-2009 at 12:08 PM.
  #19  
Old 04-20-2009, 12:47 PM
Nehemiah
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chette777 View Post
Nehemiah
Try this one David Regan is not an evolutionary Gap like me (CKG posted it just the other day no evolution solid evidence for the gap. this way you can get a balance of views of Gap or no Gap http://www.learnthebible.org/search/node/gap seeing BroParish and Winman will only link you to evidences that teach no gap. I want you to seek all views before you make a decision on a gap or not.
Thanks chette777 for the heads up.

Quote:
Adam was the first man and his wife was the first woman Gen1:27
I believe ALL Scripture; and I agree, within the Context of 1Cor. 15:45, "The first man, Adam...".

I just don't believe that Genesis 1:26-28 addresses the same Adam of Genesis 2.
Reason #1 is, ". . .let them have dominion over the fish of the sea ..."; both the word, ". . .them..." and the phrase, ". . .have dominion over the fish of the sea...", when coupled with, ". . .God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moves upon the earth.", just don't seem to explain what the Text (verses 26-28) states and what happens in Genesis 2, and what we have been traditionally led to believe.

Quote:
Cains wife was one of his sisters women were not recorded in genealogies. we are told that Adam had sons and daughters. Gen 4-5
So it seems that "Cains wife was one of his sisters women were not recorded in genealogies"; and yes, "we are told that Adam had sons and daughters", but only after the birth of Seth.

But, think about this: Cain murders his Father and Mother's youngest son; They have another son ("Seth") almost 130 years later; They then become the Parents of "daughters" (and other "sons"). But according to the Text of what I just described, "Seth" and these "[other] sons and daughters" don't come along until after we're told, "And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden. And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch...". And, yes, I know about the so-called "disparities in the chronological order" of How Genesis was supposedly written.

Why would Adam and Eve give to their murderer son, their daughter to wed? Who was Cain afraid of? If there's only Adam, Eve, Cain (at least one daughter of Adam and Eve), why put ". . .a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him."? And there are other questions that just don't add up, first and foremost, SCRIPTURAL. . .and then reasonably and logically, etc.!

Quote:
The Sons of God in Gen 6 are embodied devils who took human wives and produced giant men of renown part of the reason for Noah's flood. the giants show up after the flood as well. the daughters of men are just that female human beings.
Again, here is what I believe to be one of those myths that have become traditionally accepted, without any Scriptural foundation and/or backing whatsoever. . .and quite frankly, I believe it makes GOD look bad; and that's Sin.

The word "angel(s)", are even mentioned and/or alluded to until Genesis 16. Nowhere in all of Scripture do we find angels and humans engaging in any kind of Sexual activity (even in Sodom). Hebrews 1:5 clearly tells us, "For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?"; and just in case we missed something like the word, even "the angel of GOD" and/or "the angel of THE LORD" are never referred to, anywhere in Scripture, as a "son" and/or a "Son" of GOD/THE LORD. We see GOD making men into HIS "sons"; We even see GOD making "HIS WORD" into HIS "ONLY BEGOTTEN SON" (John 1:14); but nowhere do we ever see GOD making any angel into anything that remotely resembles a "son".

And it seems that when anyone uses Genesis 6: 1-7, to attempt to justify a position of "the sons of GOD" being [Fallen] angels and such, they always miss a very important word in verse 3, ". . .flesh...". . .not to mention the five times each, that both "man" and "men", is used.

Are we really suppose to believe that GOD, destroyed mankind (Save Noah's party), because "fallen angels" started procreating with human women? And yet, the so-called "embodied devils", were left by GOD, to do (and/or try) the same thing after the flood?

Quote:
simple answers for simple questions. Welcome to the the forum.
Seems more like "simple" speculations to me. And thank you for your Gracious and Kind "Welcome".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish View Post
LOL, you're getting off to a good start here...
Our perception is moot, the KJV states they WERE GIANTS.
You don't have to put it in "quotes" like it's my word, it's God's Word.
By "moot", are you using the word as adjective, verb, or a noun? And all we're told, in Genesis 6:4 is that, "There were giants in the earth in those days;" No mention is made of them being the off-springs of "angels". And it seems as though, according to the wording, "There were giants in the earth in those days;", were the result of what happened when, ". . .the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.". These "sons of GOD" procreated with "the daughters of men", and produced off-springs that were the sons of "the sons of GOD", yet at the same time, the sons of "the daughters of men".

In other words, by way of example ONLY, given the longevity that people lived, Adam (a "son of GOD") takes a wife from "the daughters of men" who's 4-5 generations removed from him. . .that would equal one messed up off-spring, huh?

Quote:
The extensive thread is the thread on Giants.
I gave you the link, back when I thought you were asking honest questions and actually looking for answers.
I really appreciate the information, but I'm not focused on "Giants" right now.


Quote:
When I asked you the meaning of your thread title, you answered with a question.
I'll try again; where are you going with all this, what is it you are trying to connect?
All 6 questions.

Quote:
That's BEGOTTEN SON. Big difference, but I can tell you have already taken a dogmatic position about the questions you ask, so it proabably won't matter.
Is your opinion, of what you "can tell. . .already" about me, any less "a dogmatic position" than what you "have already taken"?


Quote:
At any rate, I think Bro. Chette and Tony did a pretty good job answering your questions. Since you apparently have no interest in the notion that Cain married his sister, I'm sure that you will stop asking questions at some point and make your own position clear. Who do YOU think Cain married?
But you just stated that "Our perception is moot."
His WIFE.
  #20  
Old 04-20-2009, 01:27 PM
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Diligent Diligent is offline
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Well, that is an interesting heresy.

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