[johnlf]

Hi all,

I apologize if I offended anyone by not properly introducing myself. I understand that there are screening processes involved to keep the enemy from trying to destroy the board. That is unfortunate, as I am a very strong advocate of free speech, but it is understandable.

I have updated my avatar to let you know a little bit more about me, and no, I only know Tony from what he has posted on this board. I actually introduced myself by posting a few threads that all popped in once I was okayed by the moderator.

I'm not sure why this issue is so controversial, for me it's just another minor disagreement amongst sincere believers. But I would be dishonest if I were to not openly admit that it is my opinion that dispensationalists display a deeper understanding of the Scriptures. This understanding enables them to explain a greater number of "difficult" passages than your traditional "church" doctrine followers are able to.

My advice to anyone who gets really upset about these things is to honestly examine themselves to find out why, because I can see no other reason for an emotional reaction except that it originates in the flesh.

I have had many friendly disagreements with other believers over the years and have learned a lot about myself and the Scriptures, hence I always welcome a vigorous debate.

Over the years I have come to conclusions about a number of things that others have found very controversial, but to me is simply what the Bible teaches. For example I believe:

* Genesis 6 is about angels taking human wives producing giants
* The "baptism in the spirit" as practiced by charismatics produces demonic oppression
* Homosexuals are actually demon possessed
* The two witnesses are clearly Moses and Elijah
* Women pastors are in rebellion against God
* Most "Christian" music is of the devil
* Many Christian women dress no better than prostitutes

I cannot tell you how many times one or more of those positions has caused a near riot amongst other believers which I find quite surprising. I cannot help but wonder if that reaction comes from a very agitated fleshly nature. The current topic in my mind is no more controversial than any of those other topics.

Originally Posted by johnlf

I'm not sure why this issue is so controversial, for me it's just another minor disagreement amongst sincere believers. But I would be dishonest if I were to not openly admit that it is my opinion that dispensationalists display a deeper understanding of the Scriptures. This understanding enables them to explain a greater number of "difficult" passages than your traditional "church" doctrine followers are able to.

John, I appreciate your polite response. And for the record, I think you are 100 percent correct about the creatures of Genesis 6 and the daughters of men.

To the topic at hand:
Please understand most of us here subscribe to the scriptural application of RIGHTLY DIVIDING and the importance of dispensational truth. I have hard bound books on the subject in my library. However, since you say you are not coming from any type of church membership you probably have no idea of the discord and damage which WRONGLY DIVIDING (a.k.a. Hyperdispensationalism and Bullingerism) has created for many Bible believing churches and ministries.

The notion that believer's baptism is a dead work and part of the Mosaic Law (which has already been promoted here) is not a "minor" issue. When people come on here and tell everyone who was ever scripturally baptized that it was UNSCRIPTURAL, that is not a "minor" issue. It shows a deep misunderstanding of dispensational truth, and even though it's not really all that complicated, there are always a few hypers who MAKE it complicated. Anyone who has been in the ministry for 30 or 40 years knows this. Those of us who have seen this are more likely to be on guard for it. I encourage you to do more research on these issues.

We sometimes have people come to this forum who are confused over various issues, suggesting that we should worship on the Sabbath, avoid believer's baptism or avoid certain meats, etc. and for me, it's not "emotional or offending" as you have suggested—and it's certainly not a matter of "the flesh"—it's simply correct vs. incorrect Bible doctrine, and there are reasons for concern...

As I posed earlier, Ultradispensationalism can often come packaged with some other strange teachings. For example some of the adherents to Ultradispensationalism reject not only the ordinance of baptism with water but also the Lord’s Supper, proclaiming that the church of today is no longer to participate in ANY kind of ordinance. Some adherents of Ultradispensationalism also officially reject church attendance completely, such as Otis Q. Sellers in his pamphlet named "Christian Individualism." There are often many subtle folds to Bullingerism and its sister doctrines, and I am certainly NOT trying to project any or all of them onto ANY member of this forum, but I suspect that some of the new believers here are perhaps not aware of the complete history of this teaching, so I simply put it out there and let them decide for themselves. Others have had far more negative opinions on it over the years, to see where they are coming from please do read the comments here from Dr. Harry Ironside and David Walker:
http://www.gotothebible.com/HTML/wrongly1.html
http://www.victory-baptist.net/hyper.htm#_ftn13

[George]

Aloha John,

Thanks for giving us some info about yourself and I appreciate your explanation in your last Post. As of late we have had quite a few "troublemakers" join the Forum and I for one may be a bit "edgy".

I was extremely concerned when the issue of water Baptism came up, because I know from past experience that no "profit" ever comes from a "discussion" about it. Christians on both sides of the issue hold very strong "convictions" about the matter and neither one is going to "budge an inch" - so WHY BOTHER?

I will reply to each of your following statements to give you an idea where I am coming from.

* "Genesis 6 is about angels taking human wives producing giants."
{I am in agreement with you - but I never make a big deal about this issue.}

* "The "baptism in the spirit" as practiced by charismatics produces demonic oppression."
{I would put it: The "baptism in the spirit" as practiced by charismatics can produce oppression by "evil spirits ("devils") and possibly even "possession" by evil spirits ("devils") as well.}

* "Homosexuals are actually demon possessed."
{I don't know of any Scriptures that support your view, but I do know for sure that our God hates SODOMY & SODOMITES, and there is no Scriptural doubt about that - for sure!}

* "The two witnesses are clearly Moses and Elijah."
{I am in agreement with you - but, again, I never make a big deal about this issue.}

* "Women pastors are in rebellion against God."
{I am in strongly in agreement with you and I would (and do) make a big deal out of it.}

* "Most "Christian" music is of the devil."
{I don't know this for sure (Scripture?), but most of it is surely - "CARNAL"}

* "Many Christian women dress no better than prostitutes."
{The way that many "Christian" women in the Western world "DRESS" is in indicative of a much more serious "problem" - and that is an unwillingness (on the part of many Western "Christian" women) to be in "submission" to God's words when it comes to anything that they "FEEL" is "right in their own eyes"! Humanism!}

"I cannot tell you how many times one or more of those positions has caused a near riot amongst other believers which I find quite surprising. I cannot help but wonder if that reaction comes from a very agitated fleshly nature. The current topic in my mind is no more controversial than any of those other topics."

I pretty much agree with you, with the exception of your last statement: "The current topic in my mind is no more controversial than any of those other topics. " You may think or feel this way (in your "mind"), but there are fellow brothers in Christ that are highly "offended" by your (and Tony's) position on this issue.

I expressed my "take" on this issue early on, but although I am in disagreement with both you & brother Tony, I believe you have a right to your convictions - as long as you don't "push it" too hard here. This is one of those "issues" that is not going to go away until the Lord Jesus Christ straightens us all out on our "doctrine" at the Judgment Seat of Christ. Until then we have "bigger fish to fry" and more important things to do than to continually re-hash an issue that has proven to be of NO benefit or profit to the brethren; and instead of edifying us it has only served to DIVIDE US.