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  #21  
Old 07-17-2009, 09:17 PM
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Bro. Tony, I appreciate your kind words. I indeed do not condone hateful street preaching nor would it be advantageous in winning them to Christ.
However, after much diccussion with my husband and examining the Scriptures Paul B. perfectly voiced my thoughts on this.

In the discussion I had had earlier on FaceBook I was continually given the verse:

Quote:
Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Yet, when this verse is read I feel it strengthens the position that God does have pleasure in the death of those that refuse Him. That little word but. He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked but that they will turn from their wicked way. I read that to say if they do not turn from their wicked way while living and they die in their sin then He is pleased? Death here appears to be a future event because after death they would have no option to turn from their wicked ways.

I again am not trying to suggest we go around with hatred in our hearts toward the unsaved in general, but when someone is bent on their wickedness and rejects the Savior I just don't see where God loves that person present tense.

I also find it interesting that the apostles never once told the multitudes that "God loves them" yet there are several instances where they preach the fear of God.

This verse also has been given as proof that God loves sinners:

Quote:
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
But even this passage says that he commendeth His love toward us. He "offers" His love toward us AT CALVARY...That is the only place you will find God's love for the sinner mentioned.

Quote:
Ro 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
God hates, the Bible says he does. He hates people even not just their sin. But Jesus appeased the wrath of God at the cross. So the only way God's wrath is appeased is by looking at the sinner who is covered by the blood of His Son.

Again, feel free to pick apart my thinking

Really enjoying reading your comments and thinking this through and studying the Bible
The King James Bible Page SwordSearcher Bible Software
  #22  
Old 07-18-2009, 02:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Amanda S. View Post
Bro. Tony, I appreciate your kind words. I indeed do not condone hateful street preaching nor would it be advantageous in winning them to Christ.
However, after much diccussion with my husband and examining the Scriptures Paul B. perfectly voiced my thoughts on this.

In the discussion I had had earlier on FaceBook I was continually given the verse:

Yet, when this verse is read I feel it strengthens the position that God does have pleasure in the death of those that refuse Him. That little word but. He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked but that they will turn from their wicked way. I read that to say if they do not turn from their wicked way while living and they die in their sin then He is pleased? Death here appears to be a future event because after death they would have no option to turn from their wicked ways.

I again am not trying to suggest we go around with hatred in our hearts toward the unsaved in general, but when someone is bent on their wickedness and rejects the Savior I just don't see where God loves that person present tense.

I also find it interesting that the apostles never once told the multitudes that "God loves them" yet there are several instances where they preach the fear of God.

This verse also has been given as proof that God loves sinners:



But even this passage says that he commendeth His love toward us. He "offers" His love toward us AT CALVARY...That is the only place you will find God's love for the sinner mentioned.



God hates, the Bible says he does. He hates people even not just their sin. But Jesus appeased the wrath of God at the cross. So the only way God's wrath is appeased is by looking at the sinner who is covered by the blood of His Son.

Again, feel free to pick apart my thinking

Really enjoying reading your comments and thinking this through and studying the Bible
Sister, I have no intention of picking apart anything you have to say. We had a woman in the forum a number of months ago and several men who were teaching Law and some weird Jewish fables revolving around the good ol' days of early Genesis period, they were stripped to the bones You make many valid points and comments that are worthy of responding to.

Amanda, when I was studying in college we had a course and a degree called "abnormal" psychology. That's no longer available to me, the time has long past for me to take any degree in it, I was a few hours short of a bachelors in this field. What was then "abnormal" is normal today. I'd like to approach "hatred of sinners" from that angle first.

When a man preaches that "God hates sinners" it's something known as "projecting", it's a mental defense mechanism against self-hatred. When a man preaches "God hates sinners" it's because he is trying to take the spotlight off himself, because he has a few pretty hideous sins in his life he is not telling us about. A man who preaches that "God hates sinners' is not a man I'd leave alone with a child or group of children. Sister, I'm not going to name names and produce court documents in my possession, if you feel God leads me to speak the truth, take my word for it.

Jack Hyles was one of the most vicious and fervent preachers against adultery I have ever known, Hyles was committing adultery with his personal secretary for over 20 years he preached against it.

Any man who preaches that "God hates sinners" is secretly preaching against himself. I don't want you in the same room, alone, with that man. I attended a church where the pastor withdrew support for the street ministry because he didn't want that street trash in the church.
Now, as individual Christians we can believe what we want. Sister, regarding the traditional Baptist doctrine you were born and raised into, I am your worst nightmare. Let each of us be fully persuaded in our own minds. But a man in the position of a pastor or evangelist, educator, author, who has the power to influence or sway large numbers of people teaches that "God hates sinners" that man is a murderer. He is condemning the lost to hell, because such a man does not want to witness, nor will witness to lost people, the lost is the reason you and I exist in Christ.

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

If God hates sinners then let's just translate our own version of the Scriptures and when we do, we will say there is "no manuscript evidence" for the verse I just quoted you.

The second thing I want to address is Scripture wresting. Can You show me Scripture that "God hates sinners"? Kewl. I can show you Scripture that proves the existence of Santa Clause:

Zec 2:6 Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the LORD: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the LORD.

Sure, Santa is God ain't He? He knows when you been sleeping, he knows when you're awake, he knows when you been bad or good so be good for goddness sake? There you have it, I mean it's right in the Bible. The Dane Sinte Klaus, St. Nicolas, in the rolls of the Catholic Church as the patron saint of beer drinkers is God.

I'm sure God has hated select individuals. He hated Esau, and I'm sure his opinion of the future Anti-Christ, Judas Iscariot, is not a good one. The reason the tone of this response to you is a bit strong is because the teaching "God hates sinners" is a Satanic heresy, cultic, and like Calvinism, one of the greatest tools against personal evangelism out there.

Third and final thing I want to emphasize is why did God die for people he hated?

Matt. 9:10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.
11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

You know, prostitutes, murderers, crackheads, crank-cookers, child molesters, rapists, just dripped off Jesus Christ everywhere he went. You ever see the tearful writhing and hear the pitiful cries of the most hardened sinner as they came to Christ, and wonder why? Because Jesus Christ has mercy on them, Christians don't. People on the street hear me speak to my fellows about this or that, and they say, you speak as if there is something wrong with Christianity. I reply yes, only one thing wrong with Christianity, Christians.

We have "Calvinists" who are actually too shy, cowardly, and are ashamed of the gospel of Christ to witness for Him. If God hates sinners I guess Arthur Blessit walked 36000 miles for nothing.

Sister, when you've read this message, blot everything out around you and read it again. They pray about it.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

When we translate the God Hates Sinners Version, above is another verse we'll have to say there is "no manuscript evidence for".

Grace and peace sister Amanda

Tony
  #23  
Old 07-18-2009, 04:04 AM
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Default God hates the sin

If there’s one thing that I get extremely uncomfortable with it is the volatile and aggressive nature of the street preachers who come across like Christian terrorist. They rant at people in a manner that gives the impression that they are in the mood for a fight with them.

As much as I admire their enthusiasm to face the public and not hold back I do question whether their evangelism is being driven by God’s love for the lost or (like Tony correctly put it) by their own inner condemnation of hidden sins.

I personally do not believe that God hates sinners but I do believe that He gets very angry with them! But one of my greatest concerns with the modern day gospel (that is, “Say a prayer and you’re in” Rick Warren/Brian McClaren type salvation) gives the impression that sin isn’t an issue and that God isn’t what He used to be.

Now before I go on I would like to say that I am neither a Calvinist nor an Armenian, but one thing that I will do is look for any opportunity to present the gospel of Christ to sinners.

Personally I think that Jack Chick is a good basis to build upon as he always starts with the seriousness of sin and then leads to the cross. I do believe that God is angry with sinners and it is His long suffering that is holding back their due condemnation.

Love doesn’t avoid the truth about their state and the seriousness of that before a holy God, but wisdom should be applied to the situation – not an attitude of madness like some do and leave themselves looking like a man possessed.

In a gospel presentation I believe that we must be careful not to lose site of truth of the sinners stance before a holy God. Yes God loves sinners and Christ died for them but that is not the entire gospel message – it is part of it.

I honestly believe that it is the misrepresentation of the gospel message today that is producing the Christians that we are producing today. The fear of God is a clear evidence that a person has believed the God of the Bible and this is a fundamental element that has gone missing in 21st Century Christendom and gospel preaching.

The message today is more about acceptance and the individual than it is about the person and work of Christ. People come away thinking about their own importance rather than the authority of the Christ who seeks to purchase them.

If the seriousness of sin is overlooked or watered down in order to make the gopsel more acceptable - then the work of the cross is substituted for another gospel. The cross of Christ shows the whole of creation just how serious an issue sin truly is - If God could unleash all of His wrath, anger, judgement and hatred of sin upon His Only Begotten Son to save us - then should we avoid that truth?

To stand before God (as a sinner) before the cross was serious enough - but to stand there afterwards on the day of judgement (knowing that you had rejected salvation) then I would go as far as to say that the love of God for that individual is over!

1 Pt.15-17 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
  #24  
Old 07-18-2009, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by tonybones2112 View Post
Sister, I have no intention of picking apart anything you have to say. We had a woman in the forum a number of months ago and several men who were teaching Law and some weird Jewish fables revolving around the good ol' days of early Genesis period, they were stripped to the bones You make many valid points and comments that are worthy of responding to.

Amanda, when I was studying in college we had a course and a degree called "abnormal" psychology. That's no longer available to me, the time has long past for me to take any degree in it, I was a few hours short of a bachelors in this field. What was then "abnormal" is normal today. I'd like to approach "hatred of sinners" from that angle first.

When a man preaches that "God hates sinners" it's something known as "projecting", it's a mental defense mechanism against self-hatred. When a man preaches "God hates sinners" it's because he is trying to take the spotlight off himself, because he has a few pretty hideous sins in his life he is not telling us about. A man who preaches that "God hates sinners' is not a man I'd leave alone with a child or group of children. Sister, I'm not going to name names and produce court documents in my possession, if you feel God leads me to speak the truth, take my word for it.

Jack Hyles was one of the most vicious and fervent preachers against adultery I have ever known, Hyles was committing adultery with his personal secretary for over 20 years he preached against it.

Any man who preaches that "God hates sinners" is secretly preaching against himself. I don't want you in the same room, alone, with that man. I attended a church where the pastor withdrew support for the street ministry because he didn't want that street trash in the church.
Now, as individual Christians we can believe what we want. Sister, regarding the traditional Baptist doctrine you were born and raised into, I am your worst nightmare. Let each of us be fully persuaded in our own minds. But a man in the position of a pastor or evangelist, educator, author, who has the power to influence or sway large numbers of people teaches that "God hates sinners" that man is a murderer. He is condemning the lost to hell, because such a man does not want to witness, nor will witness to lost people, the lost is the reason you and I exist in Christ.

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

If God hates sinners then let's just translate our own version of the Scriptures and when we do, we will say there is "no manuscript evidence" for the verse I just quoted you.

The second thing I want to address is Scripture wresting. Can You show me Scripture that "God hates sinners"? Kewl. I can show you Scripture that proves the existence of Santa Clause:

Zec 2:6 Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the LORD: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the LORD.

Sure, Santa is God ain't He? He knows when you been sleeping, he knows when you're awake, he knows when you been bad or good so be good for goddness sake? There you have it, I mean it's right in the Bible. The Dane Sinte Klaus, St. Nicolas, in the rolls of the Catholic Church as the patron saint of beer drinkers is God.

I'm sure God has hated select individuals. He hated Esau, and I'm sure his opinion of the future Anti-Christ, Judas Iscariot, is not a good one. The reason the tone of this response to you is a bit strong is because the teaching "God hates sinners" is a Satanic heresy, cultic, and like Calvinism, one of the greatest tools against personal evangelism out there.

Third and final thing I want to emphasize is why did God die for people he hated?

Matt. 9:10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.
11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

You know, prostitutes, murderers, crackheads, crank-cookers, child molesters, rapists, just dripped off Jesus Christ everywhere he went. You ever see the tearful writhing and hear the pitiful cries of the most hardened sinner as they came to Christ, and wonder why? Because Jesus Christ has mercy on them, Christians don't. People on the street hear me speak to my fellows about this or that, and they say, you speak as if there is something wrong with Christianity. I reply yes, only one thing wrong with Christianity, Christians.

We have "Calvinists" who are actually too shy, cowardly, and are ashamed of the gospel of Christ to witness for Him. If God hates sinners I guess Arthur Blessit walked 36000 miles for nothing.

Sister, when you've read this message, blot everything out around you and read it again. They pray about it.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

When we translate the God Hates Sinners Version, above is another verse we'll have to say there is "no manuscript evidence for".

Grace and peace sister Amanda

Tony
Quote:
You wrote: Any man who preaches that "God hates sinners" is secretly preaching against himself. I don't want you in the same room, alone, with that man.
Personally, I've never heard, or preached a message that: "God Hates Sinners!" I am not suggesting it's never been done...but I've never heard it. Certainly in Christ we all know that we are reconciled, justified, sanctified, redeemed, and forgiven. Surely we, who are now saved and in Christ, know this very basic Biblical reality. There is absolutely no condemnation to the born-again believer--ever. We are the righteousness of God in Christ. There are plenty of scriptures that teach us that.
2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Yes, God is love. No doubt. Yes, God is longsuffering. No doubt. Yes, God is merciful, kind, giving, and full of grace. But how do you treat this scripture, brother?

Quote:
You wrote: The second thing I want to address is Scripture wresting. Can You show me Scripture that "God hates sinners"?
Psalms 5:4-5 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee. The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Psalms 11:5-7 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup. For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.
Would those scriptures above mean "all" workers of iniquity? Do those scriptures above actually say that God hates all the workers of iniquity, the wicked, and him that worketh violence? A simple yes or no will suffice. And if you think no, please explain to us why you believe that and to whom those verses above actually refer.

Last edited by Forrest; 07-18-2009 at 10:42 AM.
  #25  
Old 07-18-2009, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Amanda S. View Post
God hates, the Bible says he does. He hates people even not just their sin. But Jesus appeased the wrath of God at the cross.
I agree, Sister.

And Jassy...I agree with you too.

Quote:
Jassy wrote: So, yes, God still hates the workers of iniquity. However, He loved them enough to give them the most precious GIFT: that of the BLOOD of His Son, Jesus Christ.

Sometimes it is confusing for people to understand. And I struggled with this myself... but the Bible says that I am covered by His BLOOD, and the Holy Spirit is in me, at the moment that I BELIEVED.
  #26  
Old 07-18-2009, 11:01 AM
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Default Amanda & Forest

I do think that you are onto something here because as I see it we must never overlook the fact that sin is the rebellion of sinners – yes sin is an act, but it is the outworkings of the heart (people sin because their nature is evil and not because they are unaware that God loves them). Christ will judge and condemn sinners to the lake of fire forever (not just the memory of their outward acts – but the actual people who carried them out).

Now concerning the idea that God was a God of wrath in the OT and that now in NT He has been changed into a God of tolerance is totally unscriptural. In the OT we had the law (but that doesn’t mean to say that only the Israelis who disobeyed it were transgressors), it means that everyone was a transgressor.

In the NT it is very similar in the sense that those who are under covenant are held up as examples of their owner – but it differs greatly when it applies to the world (as they are not under grace, but a slow ticking clock).

Christians are under grace, but that doesn’t mean to say that the entire human race is under that same grace. They are still enemies of God (even though His love has been made manifest to them) but like I said earlier, it only intensifies their present position as His enemies unless they respond to that love and hand over the reigns.

There are many occasions where God’s anger at sinners (not just their acts) are illustrated in the NT:

Mt.23:13-15 “But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.”

Rv.6:15-17 “And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

Rv.14:9-11 “And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”

Rv.16:16 “And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.”

It just doesn’t ring true to me that the only real crime that sinners are guilty of under this “new dispensation of grace” is that they send themselves to a lost eternity because they were uninformed about a Jesus who loved them and that God was powerless to do anything.

To even hint at the thought that He wasn’t angry with them – but only their works is totally unscriptural.

Rm.2:5-8 “But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,”

Mt.22:2-7 “The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.


Hb.10:26-29 “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

You just need to listen to men like Art Katz to be convinced of the mighty acts of God against His enemies.

God bless

PaulB
  #27  
Old 07-18-2009, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by PaulB View Post
I do think that you are onto something here because as I see it we must never overlook the fact that sin is the rebellion of sinners – yes sin is an act, but it is the outworkings of the heart (people sin because their nature is evil and not because they are unaware that God loves them). Christ will judge and condemn sinners to the lake of fire forever (not just the memory of their outward acts – but the actual people who carried them out).

Now concerning the idea that God was a God of wrath in the OT and that now in NT He has been changed into a God of tolerance is totally unscriptural. In the OT we had the law (but that doesn’t mean to say that only the Israelis who disobeyed it were transgressors), it means that everyone was a transgressor.

In the NT it is very similar in the sense that those who are under covenant are held up as examples of their owner – but it differs greatly when it applies to the world (as they are not under grace, but a slow ticking clock).

Christians are under grace, but that doesn’t mean to say that the entire human race is under that same grace. They are still enemies of God (even though His love has been made manifest to them) but like I said earlier, it only intensifies their present position as His enemies unless they respond to that love and hand over the reigns.

There are many occasions where God’s anger at sinners (not just their acts) are illustrated in the NT:

Mt.23:13-15 “But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.”

Rv.6:15-17 “And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

Rv.14:9-11 “And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”

Rv.16:16 “And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.”

It just doesn’t ring true to me that the only real crime that sinners are guilty of under this “new dispensation of grace” is that they send themselves to a lost eternity because they were uninformed about a Jesus who loved them and that God was powerless to do anything.

To even hint at the thought that He wasn’t angry with them – but only their works is totally unscriptural.

Rm.2:5-8 “But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,”

Mt.22:2-7 “The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.


Hb.10:26-29 “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

You just need to listen to men like Art Katz to be convinced of the mighty acts of God against His enemies.

God bless

PaulB
Greetings Brother Paul. I agree with you that the lost will face the wrath of God. I am reminded of Amanda's specific question on her original post:

Quote:
If so, how does one reconcile this "godly attitude" with Psalm 5:5?
"The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity."
There has been ample explanation to how a person reconciles the "godly attitude" (Hate the sin/love the sinner) with Psalms 5:5 which says God hates all the workers of iniquity.

Perhaps this is what needs to be said. I have yet to find a verse that exhorts, admonishes, teaches, commands, or encourages me or any other human being to "hate" the sinner.

But based on Amanda's reference to Psalms 5:5, the question of whether or not God HATES ALL WORKERS OF INIQUITY is being discussed. At least that's kind of where I took it. We are not really discussing the anger, wrath, or displeasure of God toward sin. But His hatred for the worker of iniquity. The question at hand, based on Psalms 5:5, is does God still hate all workers of iniquity?

Some of us say based on our understanding of the word of God, He does.
  #28  
Old 07-18-2009, 01:06 PM
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Amanda S. Amanda S. is offline
 
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My original question really is two-fold although I clearly didn't phrase it that way.

1) Does God hate the wicked?
2) If so what should our position be as Christians towards the wicked?

I think we have proven that God does hate the wicked and those who reject His offer of love at the cross. I do not believe that God hates ALL sinners, just some. But neither do I believe He loves all sinners, only those redeemed by the blood of the lamb. Obviously not all agree. So now for me the question is what do we do with this Scripture for us as saved people?

Quote:
21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?
22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.
Quote:
Mt 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Quote:
Lu 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Again, for those of you condemning harsh preachers or street preachers preaching "God hates sinners" I am not suggesting anyone does that nor do I agree with that methodology. I for one have never heard a preacher preach on this topic specifically although I am sure it has been mentioned in passing. I found these quotes from church history very interesting:

Quote:
JONATHAN EDWARDS: “The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much in the same way one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect, over the fire, ABHORS YOU, and is dreadfully provoked: His wrath towards you burns like fire: He looks upon you as worthy of nothing else but to be cast into the fire: He is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in His sight: you are ten thousand times more ABOMINABLE in His sight than the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours.” (Sinners In the Hands of an Angry God, July 8, 1741)

CHARLES H. SPURGEON: “Verse 5 - Note the singular opposition of the two sentences. GOD HATES THE WICKED, therefore in contrast He loves the righteous...” (The Treasury of David, Vol.2, pp.57-58)

J. VERNON MCGEE: “ If you think God is just lovey-dovey, you had better read this (Ps.11:5) and some of the other Psalms again. GOD HATES THE WICKED who hold onto their wickedness... I do not think God loves the devil, I think He hates him, and HE HATES THOSE WHO HAVE NO INTENTION OF TURNING TO GOD. Frankly, I do not like this distinction that I hear today, that ‘God loves the sinner, but hates the sin.’ God has loved you so much that He gave His Son to die for you, but if you persist in your sin, and continue in that sin, you are the enemy of God. And God is your enemy.” (Psalms, Vol.1, p.72)

MATTHEW HENRY’S COMMENTARY: “He is a holy God, and therefore HATES THEM (the sinner), and cannot endure to look upon them; the wicked, and him that loveth violence, HIS SOUL HATETH... Their pros-perity is far from being an evidence of God’s love...their abuse of it does certainly make them objects of HIS HATRED. He hates nothing that He has made, yet HATES THOSE who have ill-made themselves.”
And to just throw this out there I honestly do not think that the average church age Christian could hate righteously. Most of us are carnal and we have a long way to go in loving God let alone worrying about the wicked. But I just get so ill when people throw about "God loves, God loves. God is love, love, love" and they never ever tell the other side.
  #29  
Old 07-18-2009, 01:36 PM
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PaulB PaulB is offline
 
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Hi forest/Amanda!

What I was getting at in a rather long-winded response was the fact that; yes God loves people (even His enemies), as the cross is the ultimate demonstration of that. But what I was attempting to get across was that workers of iniquity are highly displeasing to God because of His holy and righteous nature. Yes God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked but He also has no pleasure in the lives that they choose to live. So it sounds to me that God’s hatred of sinners is seen in their final outcome, as they won’t be under eternal damnation as an act of His unconditional love for them!

We (as Christians) are sinners, but redeemed and thus under the forgiveness of God because of Christ’s finished work. As there are sinners out there who will always love their sin and reject the God who made them. People whose consciences are seared, others who have been handed over to their lusts and others who are (at the expense of their own free will) out there to hate God no matter what He says to them.

I think that the overall life of such a rebel will be the direct object of God’s wrath, judgement & damnation, which I see has a person whom God hates. The life of the sinner cannot be separated from the sinner himself and it is also key to approach a subject like this from God’s eternal prospective (which means that He see things outside of the boundaries of time). What I mean by that is that God decides whom He loves and hates from what His prospective not ours!

Hope this comes across a bit clearer

God bless

PaulB
  #30  
Old 07-18-2009, 01:47 PM
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Forrest Forrest is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanda S. View Post
My original question really is two-fold although I clearly didn't phrase it that way.

1) Does God hate the wicked?
2) If so what should our position be as Christians towards the wicked?

I think we have proven that God does hate the wicked and those who reject His offer of love at the cross. I do not believe that God hates ALL sinners, just some. But neither do I believe He loves all sinners, only those redeemed by the blood of the lamb. Obviously not all agree. So now for me the question is what do we do with this Scripture for us as saved people?

Quote:
21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?
22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.
Quote:
Mt 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Quote:
Lu 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Again, for those of you condemning harsh preachers or street preachers preaching "God hates sinners" I am not suggesting anyone does that nor do I agree with that methodology. I for one have never heard a preacher preach on this topic specifically although I am sure it has been mentioned in passing. I found these quotes from church history very interesting:

And to just throw this out there I honestly do not think that the average church age Christian could hate righteously. Most of us are carnal and we have a long way to go in loving God let alone worrying about the wicked. But I just get so ill when people throw about "God loves, God loves. God is love, love, love" and they never ever tell the other side.
Psalms 139:21-22 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.

Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Luke 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Amanda, regarding the scriptures above, the only thing I point out is that they are pre-death, pre-burial, and pre-resurrection of Jesus Christ. I’m not convinced that now those of us who in Christ and are under grace should ever hate individuals who sin. Perhaps you know of a verse that instructs those of us who are saved, to hate the sinner.

Also, concerning your statement:

Quote:
I do not believe that God hates ALL sinners, just some.
Where do you get that in scripture? Remember, Psalms 5:5 says, "The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
 

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