Doctrine Discussion about matters of the faith.

 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 06-14-2009, 01:58 PM
custer custer is offline
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbia KY
Posts: 74
Default

greenbear,

I am NOT going to try to quote you, because when I QUOTE YOU EXACTLY, you accuse me of manipulating your words!!! ??? !!! So, I'll just say that I am responding to your post #20!

First of all, why in the world do you people equate running cross-references with wresting the scriptures? Who put the cross-references in there? Are they there for a reason? Why are they there? It is truly mind-boggling (and sad) how many things you cheat yourself out of by in essence denying that "ALL scripture...is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" Keep in mind that I am commenting on this AS A DISPENSATIONALIST...I know that we are in the age of grace and that our doctrine comes from Paul; but II Timothy 3:16 SAYS that if it's not there for doctrine, then it IS there for either reproof, correction, or instruction in righteousness!!! What about that is hard to understand?
My personal opinion (that you like to refer to) has nothing to do with what we find by using cross-references...if we believe (and I hope we all do) that God put EVERY SINGLE WORD of that King James Bible in there for a reason, then why would the cross-references not be relevant??? I am SOOOO not being ugly, but this is not rocket science! I am VERY THANKFUL for the way the Bible is put together!

For you (or anyone on here) that believes the Bible teaches we can't marry a divorced person, what can we do with I Cor. 7:27-28:
27 Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife.
28 But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned;...

I am asking this because I have NOT studied it; I just knew those verses were there and wonder how they fit with saying that we are commanded not to marry a divorced person...just from those verses, it's not logical to say that the person marrying the "thou" in verse 28 WOULD BE sinning by joining in the marriage. In other words, if it's not sin for one of the spouses, why would it be sin for the other? I hope my question makes sense!

Another thought on Paul not giving a lot of direct commands for us...The letters he wrote were to specific churches or people and dealt with the issues that were relevant to who he was writing to at the time. It doesn't make sense that he would admonish the saved folks in Galatia not to have a sex-change operation, for example! It simply wasn't pertinent to them! So can you prove from the Bible, IN PROPER CONTEXT, that a believer today shouldn't have such an operation? This example is like the others I brought up in the "love and race" thread that nobody wants to comment on! If you are saying or intimating (and you are/have) that I am making up Bible commands to fit my personal opinions or preconceived ideas, then why can't you deal with these examples? Now, I can be sarcastic, BUT THAT QUESTION WAS NOT SARCASTIC...I REALLY WANT TO KNOW! When I raised examples in the other thread (post #86,) you ignored them and changed the subject (post #95) back to the race issue (which, again, I'd like to discuss, but at another time.) Yes, I realize this topic SHOULD have a thread of its own!

Pam
www.custerfamilyfarm.com
The King James Bible Page SwordSearcher Bible Software
  #22  
Old 06-15-2009, 03:41 PM
custer custer is offline
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbia KY
Posts: 74
Default

George,

THIS IS NOT A PERSONAL ATTACK ON YOU! There is no need to get riled up and take it that way!

Your idea that two oxen being yoked together "must be EQUALS" so (according to you) they can't be a picture of a "genuine Biblical marriage" IS NOT FACTUAL! We cut hay a couple of weeks ago and did some of the raking with a friend's draft horses; they are joined with a harness, not a yoke, but the idea is the same. THERE WAS A LEAD HORSE...THE LEADER...THE HEAD HONCHO! One of the two knew better what to do and how to do it; he LED the other, and they both pulled the rake together! (Same thing goes for sled dogs.) Also, I have read about oxen and only ever found that they are to be matched, not according to leadership ability, but according to temperament and willingness to work! And, do you raise cattle? We do and have for years!!! And in any group of cows/steers (whether it's a pair or a hundred,) THEIR IS ALWAYS A DOMINANT ANIMAL!!! So, the picture of being "yoked together" is perfectly compatible with the man being the head of the woman.

As for YOUR definition of "yoked" - "paired together for work" - that is completely inconsistent with your stated desire to use the Bible to define itself! In your enthusiasm to avoid the word "joined" and substitute YOUR OWN "pair" or "paired," did you check out how the Bible uses "pair?" Yes, a yoke of oxen is a pair, but so is the "pair of turtledoves" in Luke 2:24, which are NOT connected to each other in any way; and the "pair of balances" in Revelation 6:5, which is ONE instrument referred to as a pair only because it has two pans. (If the "pair" of pans was actually "paired together" [per YOUR definition,] the tool could not perform its intended task! Instead, the "pair" of pans is JOINED TOGETHER by a center beam!) This is a PERFECT example of why it DOES make such a difference whether a word is a noun or a verb! (Can you imagine trying to communicate with someone who spoke using only nouns?) Along the same lines, I can have a yoke ("pair") of oxen in my pasture that are NOT "paired together;" if the "pair" is 200 yards apart, they are still considered a "yoke" of oxen, even though they are not "yoked together" at the time! In order for the "pair" to be "yoked together," I must put them together (join them, if you will) with a physical piece of wood or iron - the "yoke." I apologize if this sounds scattered or repetitive - it is the most basic element of language...that words can and do have very different meanings; this is the way that we talk and the way the Bible is written.

And, George, I agree with you that comprehending these truths DOES NOT require a college education; I DON'T HAVE A COLLEGE EDUCATION! You jumped to conclusions when I told you that I kept a 4.0 in my college English courses; the ONLY reason I mentioned it was because YOU called into question my ability to "read English!" Almost twenty years ago, I started nursing school, but I quit before I even finished my "core courses" when I learned that my place was at home with my family. I wouldn't advise ANYONE to go to college - PERIOD - apprenticeship and on-the-job training are much more practical, "real-life," not to mention inexpensive ways to learn and are, therefore, infinitely preferable!

On top of having a very limited education, I AM BLONDE!!! But am I the only one who noticed that you (George) incorrectly assigned the definition of YOUR OWN CHOOSING to "yoke" in Num. 19:2, Deut. 21:3, I Sam. 6:7, Jer. 28:10, Jer. 28:12, Jer. 28:13, and Jer. 31:18? The "yoke" in these verses is CLEARLY an actual piece of wood or iron used to join two oxen together - not a figurative or representative "burden" or "servitude." (READ THE VERSES...George has them in the original post above.) While there are many places in scripture where a "yoke" IS figurative for such, a physical yoke IS NOT THE BURDEN OF THE OX!!! It is an instrument that connects the animals to each other and, by extension, to their "burden." The burden is the load that they pull; the burden is NOT the yoke itself! [Again, figuratively, "yoke" IS used to mean "burden," because the purpose of putting on the yoke is to work.] In addition, there are eight times in your study, George, where YOU assign either "burden," "servitude," or "paired together for work" as the definition of "yoke" when it is painfully obvious in the verses that "yoke" simply means "pair." (Again, George has these verses above for us to check out: Jer. 51:23, I Sam. 11:7, I Sam. 14:14, I Kings 19:19, I Kings 19:21, Job 1:3, Job 42:12, and Luke 14:19.) Please look at them all, but (for example) notice Luke 14:19 - "...I have bought five yoke of oxen..." George, you say that's "a burden or servitude;" the Bible is simply specifying a number. Or, how about I Sam. 11:7 - "...he took a yoke of oxen, and hewed them in pieces..." You say that those oxen are "paired together for work;" the Bible says it was two oxen chopped up in pieces!

If you (George) feel the need to point out YET AGAIN that "Pam just can't let go," (Love and Race post #92) notice that the reason I am still here commenting is that you conducted a biased one-sided study supported with FALSE INFORMATION! So, like I've said before, a response (although welcome) is not necessary - it WAS necessary to put out the TRUTH to be weighed against your study! Is it possible that you honestly don't see that this has nothing to do with me being "determined to be right" (Love and Race post #92) and everything to do with SOMEONE posting the TRUTH? (If it helps, you could pretend someone else wrote it!)

Pam
www.custerfamilyfarm.com
  #23  
Old 06-16-2009, 09:07 AM
custer custer is offline
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbia KY
Posts: 74
Default

Plus, for anyone who is interested, the Lord doesn't seem to have a problem with Samson comparing his WIFE to a YOKED HEIFER...we know it was a "yoked heifer" because it says "plowed with my heifer;" I can't find in the Bible where you can plow with only one ox! So SCRIPTURALLY, there's 'being yoked' connected with a marriage relationship! (Judges 14:12-18)

Pam
www.custerfamilyfarm.com
  #24  
Old 06-16-2009, 10:34 AM
George's Avatar
George George is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Broken Arrow, Oklahoma
Posts: 891
Default Re: "Biblical Marriage - "Joined Together" or "Yoked Together"?"

Aloha all,

Please take note of "custer's" radical "ATTITUDE". This woman is a perfect "example" of what I was referring to as the "Westernized" (or "Americanized") woman. {It's known as HUMANISTIC "FEMINISM"!}

Please check out her pernicious Posts and review her comments in regards to me (a harmless old curmudgeon ). The woman is "OBSESSED" with yours truly, simply because I have spoken the truth.

Notice how she will "IGNORE" the overwhelming number of proof texts as to the meaning of "yoke" and how she desperately runs to ONE text (and takes it out of "context") to prove her preconceived ideas. This woman is not only "out of order', she is also "OUT OF BALANCE"!

This is the woman who, early on, claimed: "I disagree with most of what has been posted on this thread, but I DON'T want to argue - I would like to try to understand where y'all are coming from!"; and who has done NOTHING but ARGUE (and is STILL "ARGUING") since she joined our happy little group! "Christian" women should NOT be so disingenuous! And this is one of many reasons why I REFUSE to have anything more to do with the woman. She is OUT OF "ORDER" and OUT OF "BALANCE"!

She is a typical "EXAMPLE" of the typical MODERN Westernized (or Americanized) "Christian" woman, who REFUSES to receive instruction, and is in REBELLION against God's "ORDER" and against His Holy word!

You can do NOTHING for these kind of "Christians". It is "an EXERCISE IN FUTILITY" in trying to "reason" with them. They are determined to be "RIGHT" at any and all costs - even if it means making a complete fool of herself.

This is the result of HUMANISTIC training and education, which produces SOPHISTS - yes even "CHRISTIAN" SOPHISTS!

This woman has been nothing but argumentative, contentious, and combative since she came here. She has done nothing but agitate, disrupt, and disturb the fellowship that most of us seek here. And the "FRUIT" of her contentiousness has been confusion, discord, and division.

I have dealt with these Westernized (or Americanized) "Christian" women for over 50 years - there is NOTHING that we can SAY or DO that will CHANGE them. If we all IGNORE her - she will go away, or she will "get so out of hand" (i.e. OUT OF "ORDER") that she will be "banned".

Proverbs 13:10 Only by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised is wisdom.

Proverbs 17:14
The beginning of strife is as when one letteth out water: therefore leave off contention, before it be meddled with.


Proverbs 18:6 A fool's lips enter into contention, and his mouth calleth for strokes.

Proverbs 22:10 Cast out the scorner, and contention shall go out; yea, strife and reproach shall cease.
  #25  
Old 06-16-2009, 10:57 AM
greenbear's Avatar
greenbear greenbear is offline
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Ohio
Posts: 492
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by custer View Post
Plus, for anyone who is interested, the Lord doesn't seem to have a problem with Samson comparing his WIFE to a YOKED HEIFER...we know it was a "yoked heifer" because it says "plowed with my heifer;" I can't find in the Bible where you can plow with only one ox! So SCRIPTURALLY, there's 'being yoked' connected with a marriage relationship! (Judges 14:12-18)

Pam
www.custerfamilyfarm.com
custer-

You are actually using Sampson's metaphor for the sex act with his wife as support for your assertion that scriptures using the "Yoked" metaphor apply to the marriage relationship? That's a good one! I don't know whether to blush or roll around on the floor laughing!!!
  #26  
Old 06-16-2009, 03:10 PM
custer custer is offline
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbia KY
Posts: 74
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by greenbear View Post
custer-

You are actually using Sampson's metaphor for the sex act with his wife as support for your assertion that scriptures using the "Yoked" metaphor apply to the marriage relationship? That's a good one! I don't know whether to blush or roll around on the floor laughing!!!
INCOMPREHENSIBLE!!!

I know that I'm naive, but PLEASE, am I the ONLY one who has NEVER seen any "sex act" in Judges chapter 14???

And, if "plowed with my heifer" WERE a reference to a "sex act," the "metaphor" would DEFINITELY (duh!) be related to the marriage relationship!

INCOMPREHENSIBLE!!!
  #27  
Old 06-16-2009, 04:45 PM
greenbear's Avatar
greenbear greenbear is offline
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Ohio
Posts: 492
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by custer View Post
INCOMPREHENSIBLE!!!

I know that I'm naive, but PLEASE, am I the ONLY one who has NEVER seen any "sex act" in Judges chapter 14???

And, if "plowed with my heifer" WERE a reference to a "sex act," the "metaphor" would DEFINITELY (duh!) be related to the marriage relationship!

INCOMPREHENSIBLE!!!
Did you READ what I wrote??? Let me quote myself for you again. This is approaching absurdity.
Quote:
You are actually using Sampson's metaphor for the sex act with his wife as support for your assertion that scriptures using the "Yoked" metaphor apply to the marriage relationship? That's a good one! I don't know whether to blush or roll around on the floor laughing!!!
Please note that I am assuming Sampson's words "plowed with my heifer" refer to the sex act or I would not have referred to it as "Sampson's metaphor for the sex act." Sheesh!!! What I find so hilarious is that you use a man's description of having sex with his wife as evidence that "yoked" passages can apply to marriage when it has been clearly shown that they do not!!! And here we are now arguing about Sampson plowing with his heifer and what does it all mean! Unbelievable!!! I have been chuckling all day long.
  #28  
Old 06-16-2009, 08:35 PM
custer custer is offline
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbia KY
Posts: 74
Default

Well, greenbear, I'm glad I can be a source of amusement for you!

I have to admit, I was about to post that your thoughts are completely incoherent, but I think it's just better to assume that you and I are incapable of communicating our thoughts in written form...fair enough?

For the record, I did NOT "use a man's description of having sex with his wife as evidence" FOR ANYTHING... I do NOT believe now nor have I ever believed that "plowed with my heifer" has ANYTHING to do with sex!!! If "plowed with my heifer" is "Samson's metaphor for the sex act," as you assume, then in verse 18, he accused thirty people of sleeping with his wife (the thirty guys from verses 11-18!)

Again, I am NOT arguing about ANYTHING...you are the one who defined the "metaphor!" I simply wanted to know how you got that idea (the "sex act" thing) from the passage...I still don't know!!!

I am really sorry that we seem to have a communication problem almost every time we talk; I wish I knew how to fix that!

Pam
www.custerfamilyfarm.com
  #29  
Old 06-16-2009, 09:02 PM
custer custer is offline
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbia KY
Posts: 74
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by George View Post

Notice how she will "IGNORE" the overwhelming number of proof texts as to the meaning of "yoke" and how she desperately runs to ONE text (and takes it out of "context") to prove her preconceived ideas. This woman is not only "out of order', she is also "OUT OF BALANCE"!
THIS IS A BOLD-FACED LIE!

I have spent hours reading all the verses from the study and their contexts - and everybody following this thread can see that I dealt with SEVENTEEN verses of scripture in my post #22, not ONE, like you assert. (YOU chose to "IGNORE" all those scriptures AND facts!) If you are done with your elementary schoolyard bullying tactics, can we discuss YOUR thread? If you don't want to talk TO me, then tell everyone else on here what is wrong with my post #22...

If you feel the need to defame ME once again (who's "OBSESSED" with who here?,) don't waste the time that we're supposed to be redeeming by typing it all out AGAIN...everybody here already knows what you think of ME; instead, please comment on the verses and the study of the words themselves!

Pam
www.custerfamilyfarm.com
  #30  
Old 06-16-2009, 10:05 PM
greenbear's Avatar
greenbear greenbear is offline
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Ohio
Posts: 492
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by custer View Post
Well, greenbear, I'm glad I can be a source of amusement for you!

I have to admit, I was about to post that your thoughts are completely incoherent, but I think it's just better to assume that you and I are incapable of communicating our thoughts in written form...fair enough?

For the record, I did NOT "use a man's description of having sex with his wife as evidence" FOR ANYTHING... I do NOT believe now nor have I ever believed that "plowed with my heifer" has ANYTHING to do with sex!!! If "plowed with my heifer" is "Samson's metaphor for the sex act," as you assume, then in verse 18, he accused thirty people of sleeping with his wife (the thirty guys from verses 11-18!)

Again, I am NOT arguing about ANYTHING...you are the one who defined the "metaphor!" I simply wanted to know how you got that idea (the "sex act" thing) from the passage...I still don't know!!!

I am really sorry that we seem to have a communication problem almost every time we talk; I wish I knew how to fix that!

Pam
www.custerfamilyfarm.com
I know it's not right to laugh at you but I must admit that if I didn't find it so amusing I wouldn't have continued with this nonsense.

OK, Pam. I see where I lost your trail. It was Post 26. I missed one letter: an "N". You typed "NEVER" and I read it as "EVER". It was incomprehensible to me that someone wouldn't know that Samson was describing sex with his wife with the phrase "plowing with my heifer".
Quote:
INCOMPREHENSIBLE!!!

I know that I'm naive, but PLEASE, am I the ONLY one who has NEVER seen any "sex act" in Judges chapter 14???

And, if "plowed with my heifer" WERE a reference to a "sex act," the "metaphor" would DEFINITELY (duh!) be related to the marriage relationship!

INCOMPREHENSIBLE!!!
Quote:
For the record, I did NOT "use a man's description of having sex with his wife as evidence" FOR ANYTHING...
Oh, yes you did, custer!


Quote:
I do NOT believe now nor have I ever believed that "plowed with my heifer" has ANYTHING to do with sex!!! If "plowed with my heifer" is "Samson's metaphor for the sex act," as you assume, then in verse 18, he accused thirty people of sleeping with his wife (the thirty guys from verses
11-18!)
THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT SAMSON DID!!! What does your mind's eye see Samson accusing these men of doing with his wife, if it's not sex? Anything? Anything at all?? Use your imagination!!!


Please read Judges chapter 14... with understanding.

Jg*14:1 ¶ And Samson went down to Timnath, and saw a woman in Timnath of the daughters of the Philistines.

Jg*14:2 And he came up, and told his father and his mother, and said, I have seen a woman in Timnath of the daughters of the Philistines: now therefore get her for me to wife.

Jg*14:3 Then his father and his mother said unto him, Is there never a woman among the daughters of thy brethren, or among all my people, that thou goest to take a wife of the uncircumcised Philistines? And Samson said unto his father, Get her for me; for she pleaseth me well.

Jg*14:4 But his father and his mother knew not that it was of the LORD, that he sought an occasion against the Philistines: for at that time the Philistines had dominion over Israel.

Jg*14:5 Then went Samson down, and his father and his mother, to Timnath, and came to the vineyards of Timnath: and, behold, a young lion roared against him.

Jg*14:6 And the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon him, and he rent him as he would have rent a kid, and he had nothing in his hand: but he told not his father or his mother what he had done.

Jg*14:7 And he went down, and talked with the woman; and she pleased Samson well.

Jg*14:8 And after a time he returned to take her, and he turned aside to see the carcase of the lion: and, behold, there was a swarm of bees and honey in the carcase of the lion.

Jg*14:9 And he took thereof in his hands, and went on eating, and came to his father and mother, and he gave them, and they did eat: but he told not them that he had taken the honey out of the carcase of the lion.

Jg*14:10 ¶ So his father went down unto the woman: and Samson made there a feast; for so used the young men to do.

Jg*14:11 And it came to pass, when they saw him, that they brought thirty companions to be with him.

Jg*14:12 And Samson said unto them, I will now put forth a riddle unto you: if ye can certainly declare it me within the seven days of the feast, and find it out, then I will give you thirty sheets and thirty change of garments:

Jg*14:13 But if ye cannot declare it me, then shall ye give me thirty sheets and thirty change of garments. And they said unto him, Put forth thy riddle, that we may hear it.

Jg*14:14 And he said unto them, Out of the eater came forth meat, and out of the strong came forth sweetness. And they could not in three days expound the riddle.

Jg*14:15 And it came to pass on the seventh day, that they said unto Samson's wife, Entice thy husband, that he may declare unto us the riddle, lest we burn thee and thy father's house with fire: have ye called us to take that we have? is it not so?

Jg*14:16 And Samson's wife wept before him, and said, Thou dost but hate me, and lovest me not: thou hast put forth a riddle unto the children of my people, and hast not told it me. And he said unto her, Behold, I have not told it my father nor my mother, and shall I tell it thee?

Jg*14:17 And she wept before him the seven days, while their feast lasted: and it came to pass on the seventh day, that he told her, because she lay sore upon him: and she told the riddle to the children of her people.

Jg*14:18 And the men of the city said unto him on the seventh day before the sun went down, What is sweeter than honey? and what is stronger than a lion? And he said unto them, If ye had not plowed with my heifer, ye had not found out my riddle.

Jg*14:19 And the Spirit of the LORD came upon him, and he went down to Ashkelon, and slew thirty men of them, and took their spoil, and gave change of garments unto them which expounded the riddle. And his anger was kindled, and he went up to his father's house.

Jg*14:20 But Samson's wife was given to his companion, whom he had used as his friend.


You mention cross-references.
Quote:
First of all, why in the world do you people equate running cross-references with wresting the scriptures? Who put the cross-references in there? Are they there for a reason? Why are they there?
Who do you think put the cross-references in there?

As a friend of mine says, you "have to read the scriptures with Holy Spirit eyes."

We shouldn't rely too heavily on second-hand opinions about what the Bible says when we can get it straight from the Author Himself.

Last edited by greenbear; 06-16-2009 at 10:14 PM.
 

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

The King James Bible Page SwordSearcher Bible Software

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:01 PM.

Powered by vBulletin®, Copyright vBulletin Solutions Inc.

Website © AV1611.Com.
Posts represent only the opinions of users of this forum and do not necessarily represent the opinions of the webmaster.

Software for Believing Bible Study

 
Contact Us AV1611.Com