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  #11  
Old 06-16-2009, 01:41 PM
custer custer is offline
 
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Yes, I see your (and your husband's) point...so (sincere question) how do we reconcile all that with I Cor. 7:27-28? Thanks...

Pam
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  #12  
Old 06-16-2009, 04:52 PM
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Matthew 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Notice the only justifiable cause of putting away here is fornication, not adultery. Under the law, if the bride could not be demonstrated to be a virgin on her wedding night she was stoned.

Deuteronomy 22:13-21 If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her, And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her; And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him; And they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days. But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.

Matthew 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

So, whoever puts his wife away causes her to commit adultery and whoever marries her commits adultery, also. Jesus is saying that there is no justification for divorce.

Matthew 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

The husband putting away for any cause other than fornication (not adultery) also commits adultery if he remarries.

As Johnlf (my husband) pointed out, we are not under the law. There are no exceptions for us who walk after the spirit:

Matthew 19:3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? 4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, 5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? 6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. 7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? 8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
Sis, you just gave me more confusion. I thought I understood, after your husband's post - but now I am, again, unsure.

Jassy
  #13  
Old 06-16-2009, 05:42 PM
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greenbear greenbear is offline
 
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Originally Posted by custer View Post
Yes, I see your (and your husband's) point...so (sincere question) how do we reconcile all that with I Cor. 7:27-28? Thanks...

Pam
www.custerfamilyfarm.com
No problem, Pam. Please keep in mind that I didn't understand either until I read what John wrote. I just explained to you in my last post what my new found understanding was.

In order to understand what Paul means by 1 Cor 7:27-28, I think you have to look at the context. By reading the entire section we see that Paul's message is that when we are saved our focus shouldn't be on changing our worldly circumstances but rather on furthering the gospel because the time is short.

Verse 28 doesn't contradict the other verses that describe when believers are free to remarry or when remarriage would be adultery. Rather, it should be seen as a general statement that believers are free to choose celibacy or marriage regardless of Paul's personal judgement. Paul's concern is "this present distress" in verse 26 which is the persecution of the church in his time. I think he emphasizes the christians work as being the furtherance of the gospel to the lost more than being fruitful and multiplying (the Jewish emphasis on raising a godly seed).

1 Corinthians 7:17-35 But as God hath distributed to every man, as the

Lord hath called every one, so let him walk.
And so ordain I in all churches.

Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is

any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised. Circumcision is

nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the

commandments of God. Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he

was called.
Art thou called being a servant? care not for it: but if thou

mayest be made free, use it rather. For he that is called in the Lord, being a

servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is

Christ's servant. Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.

Brethren, let every man, wherein he is called, therein abide with God. Now

concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my

judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful. I

suppose therefore that this is good for the present distress, I say, that it is

good for a man so to be. Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be

loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife. But and if thou marry,

thou hast not sinned; and if a virgin marry, she hath not sinned.

Nevertheless such shall have trouble in the flesh: but I spare you. But

this I say, brethren, the time is short:
it remaineth, that both they that have

wives be as though they had none; And they that weep, as though they

wept not; and they that rejoice, as though they rejoiced not; and they that

buy, as though they possessed not; And they that use this world, as not

abusing it: for the fashion of this world passeth away.
But I would have you

without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong

to the Lord, how he may please the Lord: But he that is married careth for

the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife. There is

difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for

the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but

she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please

her husband. And this I speak for your own profit; not that I may cast a

snare upon you, but for that which is comely, and that ye may attend upon

the Lord without distraction.
  #14  
Old 06-16-2009, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Jassy View Post
Sis, you just gave me more confusion. I thought I understood, after your husband's post - but now I am, again, unsure.

Jassy
Here’s something to chew on. Why the word fornication as grounds for “putting away” and not adultery?
Matthew 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Matthew 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
And remember Joseph and his desire?
Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

1:19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.
Why would Joseph need to “put away” Mary when they were only espoused? And why was Joseph called her “husband” when they were only espoused? For the Jew/Israelite/Hebrew the espousal was binding, but in the case of fornication, it could be broken with a formal writing of divorce.

This is why the Pharisees accused Jesus of being born in fornication. They did not believe as true Christians do that He was born of a virgin.
John 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
  #15  
Old 06-16-2009, 05:49 PM
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Sis Jassy,

Let me get a few things done then I will settle in to find out what the source of confusion is.

Jen
  #16  
Old 06-16-2009, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Jassy View Post
Sis, you just gave me more confusion. I thought I understood, after your husband's post - but now I am, again, unsure.

Jassy
The point is just that not even adultery is grounds for divorce for the Christian. However, if a believer is married to an unbeliever and the unbeliever leaves the believer, then the believer is free to remarry to a believer.

In Israel, the adulterous woman and her lover were to be stoned.

Leviticus 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

So the husband of the adulterous wife would be free to remarry after his wife was stoned to death. I don't know if an adulterous husband was stoned to death and his lover. I'll find out even though no one probably cares except for me!

Fortunately, we are not under the law but under grace. The adulterous spouse doesn't get stoned to death (even though the injured spouse may like the idea at first). No where that I can find do the scriptures say that adultery is grounds for divorce.

Jennifer
  #17  
Old 06-17-2009, 12:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forrest View Post
Here’s something to chew on. Why the word fornication as grounds for “putting away” and not adultery?
Matthew 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Matthew 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
And remember Joseph and his desire?
Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

1:19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.
Why would Joseph need to “put away” Mary when they were only espoused? And why was Joseph called her “husband” when they were only espoused? For the Jew/Israelite/Hebrew the espousal was binding, but in the case of fornication, it could be broken with a formal writing of divorce.

This is why the Pharisees accused Jesus of being born in fornication. They did not believe as true Christians do that He was born of a virgin.
John 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
Forrest,

Your reference to Mary and Joseph reminds me of something I was wondering on the Love and Race thread (that changed topic to marriage between believer and unbeliever).

Do you think the virgins Paul refers to in 1 Cor chapter 7 are or include betrothed virgins?

If the virgins do include betrothed virgins, then there were probably instances where one of the betrothed parties became a believer and the other didn't. It seems reasonable to think that the situation arose where the believer would have to make a decision whether to put away or be put away rather than marry their unbelieving betrothed. If Paul is referring to this, and that's a big if, then would this be a circumstance where marriage between believer and unbeliever would not be frowned upon by God?

Would I be correct in assuming that a woman who had been put away could not marry anybody else and neither could the man who put her away?

The verses in bold I thought might apply to this scenario.

If you, or George, or anyone else have any comments I would appreciate reading them.

Jennifer


1 Corinthians 7:25 Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful.

1 Corinthians 7:28 But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned; and if a virgin marry, she hath not sinned. Nevertheless such shall have trouble in the flesh: but I spare you.

1 Corinthians 7:34 There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.

1 Corinthians 7:35 And this I speak for your own profit; not that I may cast a snare upon you, but for that which is comely, and that ye may attend upon the Lord without distraction.

1 Corinthians 7:36 But if any man think that he behaveth himself uncomely toward his virgin, if she pass the flower of her age, and need so require, let him do what he will, he sinneth not: let them marry.

1 Corinthians 7:37 Nevertheless he that standeth stedfast in his heart, having no necessity, but hath power over his own will, and hath so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin, doeth well.

1 Corinthians 7:38 So then he that giveth her in marriage doeth well; but he that giveth her not in marriage doeth better.

Last edited by greenbear; 06-17-2009 at 12:28 AM.
  #18  
Old 06-17-2009, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by greenbear View Post
Forrest,

Your reference to Mary and Joseph reminds me of something I was wondering on the Love and Race thread (that changed topic to marriage between believer and unbeliever).

Do you think the virgins Paul refers to in 1 Cor chapter 7 are or include betrothed virgins?

If the virgins do include betrothed virgins, then there were probably instances where one of the betrothed parties became a believer and the other didn't. It seems reasonable to think that the situation arose where the believer would have to make a decision whether to put away or be put away rather than marry their unbelieving betrothed. If Paul is referring to this, and that's a big if, then would this be a circumstance where marriage between believer and unbeliever would not be frowned upon by God?

Would I be correct in assuming that a woman who had been put away could not marry anybody else and neither could the man who put her away?

The verses in bold I thought might apply to this scenario.

If you, or George, or anyone else have any comments I would appreciate reading them.

Jennifer


1 Corinthians 7:25 Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful.

1 Corinthians 7:28 But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned; and if a virgin marry, she hath not sinned. Nevertheless such shall have trouble in the flesh: but I spare you.

1 Corinthians 7:34 There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.

1 Corinthians 7:35 And this I speak for your own profit; not that I may cast a snare upon you, but for that which is comely, and that ye may attend upon the Lord without distraction.

1 Corinthians 7:36 But if any man think that he behaveth himself uncomely toward his virgin, if she pass the flower of her age, and need so require, let him do what he will, he sinneth not: let them marry.

1 Corinthians 7:37 Nevertheless he that standeth stedfast in his heart, having no necessity, but hath power over his own will, and hath so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin, doeth well.

1 Corinthians 7:38 So then he that giveth her in marriage doeth well; but he that giveth her not in marriage doeth better.
I have absolutely no idea.
  #19  
Old 06-17-2009, 06:20 PM
custer custer is offline
 
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Originally Posted by greenbear View Post
No problem, Pam. Please keep in mind that I didn't understand either until I read what John wrote. I just explained to you in my last post what my new found understanding was.

In order to understand what Paul means by 1 Cor 7:27-28, I think you have to look at the context. By reading the entire section we see that Paul's message is that when we are saved our focus shouldn't be on changing our worldly circumstances but rather on furthering the gospel because the time is short.

Verse 28 doesn't contradict the other verses that describe when believers are free to remarry or when remarriage would be adultery. Rather, it should be seen as a general statement that believers are free to choose celibacy or marriage regardless of Paul's personal judgement. Paul's concern is "this present distress" in verse 26 which is the persecution of the church in his time. I think he emphasizes the christians work as being the furtherance of the gospel to the lost more than being fruitful and multiplying (the Jewish emphasis on raising a godly seed).

1 Corinthians 7:17-35 But as God hath distributed to every man, as the

Lord hath called every one, so let him walk.
And so ordain I in all churches.

Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is

any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised. Circumcision is

nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the

commandments of God. Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he

was called.
Art thou called being a servant? care not for it: but if thou

mayest be made free, use it rather. For he that is called in the Lord, being a

servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is

Christ's servant. Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.

Brethren, let every man, wherein he is called, therein abide with God. Now

concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my

judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful. I

suppose therefore that this is good for the present distress, I say, that it is

good for a man so to be. Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be

loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife. But and if thou marry,

thou hast not sinned; and if a virgin marry, she hath not sinned.

Nevertheless such shall have trouble in the flesh: but I spare you. But

this I say, brethren, the time is short:
it remaineth, that both they that have

wives be as though they had none; And they that weep, as though they

wept not; and they that rejoice, as though they rejoiced not; and they that

buy, as though they possessed not; And they that use this world, as not

abusing it: for the fashion of this world passeth away.
But I would have you

without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong

to the Lord, how he may please the Lord: But he that is married careth for

the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife. There is

difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for

the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but

she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please

her husband. And this I speak for your own profit; not that I may cast a

snare upon you, but for that which is comely, and that ye may attend upon

the Lord without distraction.
No "contention" here, but I must point out that the verses (27-28) STILL SAY "...seek not a wife. But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned."

Pam
www.custerfamilyfarm.com
  #20  
Old 07-16-2009, 11:01 AM
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Amanda S. Amanda S. is offline
 
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Quote:
27 Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife.
28 But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned;
and if a virgin marry, she hath not sinned. Nevertheless such shall have trouble in the flesh: but I spare you.
If I read the thread correctly I am gathering that some interpret this passage to mean only if an unbelieving departs it is permissible to remarry? Is it a sin to remarry even if you've divorced over adultery?
 

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