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  #41  
Old 06-13-2009, 07:07 PM
Winman Winman is offline
 
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Winman,

a few reasons I see you always disagreeing

1) you will not rightly divide the word of truth
2) preconceived Ideas as to what the scriptures teach
3) failure to properly study to show thy self approved
Again, you accuse me of not rightly dividing the truth, as though you have the keys to this knowledge alone.

And you do not present one verse of scripture to support your views, while I have presented many. If you think I misunderstand these scriptures, then correct me and show me my error.

And you assume I do not study the scriptures. Really? Is that how I came up with all these scriptures that argues against your view?

I think my posts with many scriptures that argues against your views speaks for themselves.
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  #42  
Old 06-14-2009, 03:31 AM
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chette777 chette777 is offline
 
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study can be done wrongly and it can be done rightly. no one said or assumed you didn't study. I think I used the words failure to Properly study. we have presented plenty of scripture and you always come back with the same line "I don't see it that way"

One way to see if you are studying properly is to see how what you learned has lined up with those who do study properly. If you are always arguing and debating it comes from some point of seeing yourself as always right and everyone else as always wrong. That is why I back away after a few posts with you.

As I said earlier it is like trying to share with a JW. they don't study properly and never see it that way. it is obvious by your remarks like JW's you approach the scriptures with some preconceived Ideas of scriptures that you have learned from some other teacher you respect. and you set out to argue or debate that view and hang on to it no matter what.

so now I will back away from this thread as it is obvious that you don't see it any other way than Winman see it. there by it is of no use to share anymore with you.
  #43  
Old 06-14-2009, 05:16 AM
premio53 premio53 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Winman View Post
I disagree. Paul did teach of the slaying of Jesus. But notice he teaches the repentance of sins to everlasting life, not the restoration of the kingdom.

Acts 11:26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.
27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.
28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain.
29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.
30 But God raised him from the dead:
31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.
32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,
33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;
41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.
42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Notice Paul tells this group who is primarily Jewish, that through Jesus is preached the forgiveness of sins.

And this is before Paul says he will go to the Gentiles.

Acts 11:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles

Here, Paul does say that the gospel was first to be preached to the Jews. Notice Paul says they judged themselves unworthy of "everlasting life", not the restoration of the kingdom. Then, afterward, he says he will go to the Gentiles.

Where we disagree is that you believe Peter was preaching the restoration of the kingdom of Israel in Acts 2. I completely disagree. Peter was preaching the same message as Paul here, that upon believeing on Jesus Christ they would receive forgiveness of sins and everlasting life.

The only verse(s) that could remotely be understood in Acts to be the restoration of the kingdom is Acts 3:20. But the verse before and after show differently.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began

First, the restoration of the kingdom is not mentioned. In fact, the term "gospel of the kingdom" is not found in Acts anywhere, check and see for yourself. Yes, Peter did preach Jesus would return, but this is the same message we have today. Notice it says the heaven must receive Jesus until the "times" of restitution of all things, so Peter was obviously speaking of more than one age, and could not have been saying that Jesus would return upon repentance of killing Jesus. Note that in verse 10 Peter says repent that your sins may be blotted out, and does not mention the restoration of the kingdom.

Later in Acts, Peter confirms that the message to the Jews in the early chapters was for the forgiveness of sins upon believeing on Jesus and not this "kingdom gospel" you believe.

Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. 16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. 17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? 18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Here Peter says these Gentiles received the Holy Ghost just as they did on Pentacost. Note that these Gentiles received the Holy Ghost by hearing only, not baptism. Then note how Peter says God has granted to these Gentiles ALSO repentance unto life.

I say to you that I do not believe Peter was preaching a different gospel to the Jews. It was the same salvation message that Paul preached to the Gentiles. You have not a single verse that absolutely says that the apostles were preaching the restoration of the kingdom of Israel if they repented of killing Jesus. Peter was preaching the forgiveness of sins and everlasting life upon believeing on Jesus.

The Bible clearly teaches that the gospel was opened to the Gentiles when Christ rose from the dead in Ephesians chapter 2

Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

So, it was not in Acts when the Gentiles were grafted in, it was when Jesus went to the cross, died, and rose from the dead.

And Paul clearly said that he persecuted "the church".

1 Cor 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

Here Paul is preaching to Gentiles. He tells them he persecuted "the church" of God. This clearly shows that the Jews in the early chapters of Acts were the same church as Paul spoke to much later after going to the Gentiles.
Winman, I want to thank you for your study and how plainly you lay it out. I have no idea why anyone would accuse you of not rightly dividing the word of God or failing to properly study and instead of giving scripture to refute what you said, refers you to someone else. It may by that he has no answer to what you have said. Once again I thank you for explaining this in such a logical manner.
  #44  
Old 06-14-2009, 06:10 AM
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chette777 chette777 is offline
 
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George is the one who started this post and I will refer those who question the kingdom offer and Kingdom Gospel to George even if it is asked in another thread
  #45  
Old 06-14-2009, 06:29 AM
kevinvw kevinvw is offline
 
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I don't necessarily have time to pick through Winman's post right now, all though I do say that I do agree with a couple of things that he said. The only thing I have to ask right now is why did John the Baptist and Jesus keep saying the kingdom of heaven is at hand and then start telling people how to get in to the kingdom of heaven if it there was no possible way for it to show up for another 2000+ years?
  #46  
Old 06-14-2009, 07:00 AM
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chette777 chette777 is offline
 
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Some have left out the Larger context of the Gospels of Matt thru John as to how that context applies to the preaching of the Apostles from Acts 1-8 in order to prove someone as being RIGHT and someone as being WRONG.

There is a whole lot of arguing and debating going on by a few and not a whole lot of edifying. And I think George's point in starting this thread is to edify the body of Christ as to the proper way to study the first 8 chapters of Acts.
  #47  
Old 06-14-2009, 07:13 AM
premio53 premio53 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by kevinvw View Post
I don't necessarily have time to pick through Winman's post right now, all though I do say that I do agree with a couple of things that he said. The only thing I have to ask right now is why did John the Baptist and Jesus keep saying the kingdom of heaven is at hand and then start telling people how to get in to the kingdom of heaven if it there was no possible way for it to show up for another 2000+ years?
Could it not be because the Kingdom was being offered to the Jews but because they rejected their Messiah it has been put off til after the Church Age? I have heard many say that no man was born again in the Old Testament even though the Lord Jesus Christ told an Old Testament Jew that he "must be born again." Some try to make "rightly dividing" too complicated sometimes.
  #48  
Old 06-14-2009, 07:26 AM
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chette777 chette777 is offline
 
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Winman,

Maybe it would help us more if you would share something about yourself, your testimony. things like: are you a member of a denomination or independent? are you serving the Lord full time in ministry? what type of job you have? are you married? divorced? widowed? are you male or female? have you been to Bible college? are you a high school graduate?n Where when and how did you get saved?

you see, you have posted 427 post (to the time of this post) since you came on board here in late December and you have not shared anything about yourself to us here at AV1611 forums. I as some don't go to other forums where maybe you have shared some details of your personal life. And as a matter of fact this is the only forum I am active in because I am in good company with men of like minds like George and Brandon, Sammy and Steve, and Forrest. all of these men have at one time or another given some testimony of their lives and we can know them better by that.

but your post and profile shows nothing about yourself except for the fact you like to disagree and argue. so how about starting a thread in general chit chat and give us a taste of who Winman is?
  #49  
Old 06-14-2009, 07:48 AM
kevinvw kevinvw is offline
 
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Originally Posted by premio53 View Post
Could it not be because the Kingdom was being offered to the Jews but because they rejected their Messiah it has been put off til after the Church Age? I have heard many say that no man was born again in the Old Testament even though the Lord Jesus Christ told an Old Testament Jew that he "must be born again." Some try to make "rightly dividing" too complicated sometimes.
But you see, when was the rejection? Was it before or after the crucifixion? The rejection was not the crucifixion, although it had some part to do with it. It was necessary for Him to die because He had to become a Priest first before He could become a King which was a major part of the stumbling of first century Jews. I see the rejection of the offer of the kingdom where Winman does not see it. I do say that rightly dividing the word of truth is not as clear cut as we would like it to be, but the preaching of the tribulation and Christ coming to sit on the throne of David was for Jews who were about to receive their kingdom if they were so willing, not to just get forgiveness of sins.
  #50  
Old 06-14-2009, 10:49 AM
premio53 premio53 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by chette777 View Post
Winman,

Maybe it would help us more if you would share something about yourself, your testimony. things like: are you a member of a denomination or independent? are you serving the Lord full time in ministry? what type of job you have? are you married? divorced? widowed? are you male or female? have you been to Bible college? are you a high school graduate?n Where when and how did you get saved?

you see, you have posted 427 post (to the time of this post) since you came on board here in late December and you have not shared anything about yourself to us here at AV1611 forums. I as some don't go to other forums where maybe you have shared some details of your personal life. And as a matter of fact this is the only forum I am active in because I am in good company with men of like minds like George and Brandon, Sammy and Steve, and Forrest. all of these men have at one time or another given some testimony of their lives and we can know them better by that.

but your post and profile shows nothing about yourself except for the fact you like to disagree and argue. so how about starting a thread in general chit chat and give us a taste of who Winman is?
Why would it matter if he was Jehovah Witness, Morman or any other cult? Why not just answer the scriptures he has presented? Are you seeking some information to go after him personally?
 

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