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  #41  
Old 06-23-2009, 02:27 AM
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Biblestudent here is the verse your asked for

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam,prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

I think it is clear that God's word shows that Enoch prophesied so that would make him a prophet

Enoch is also included in the genealogy of Jesus Christ

Oops, I see Tbones already posted it.
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  #42  
Old 06-23-2009, 03:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Biblestudent View Post
Thanks, for pointing the verse, Brother Tony!
Oh, how could I have missed that one!
Thanks, too, Brother Chette!
  #43  
Old 06-23-2009, 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by tonybones2112 View Post
It's perfectly all right for us to speculate in the venues of the sciences and philosophy, the Scriptures however clearly give a sefl- contained method of study. This method of study has shown us that the literal personages of Moses and Elijah are the Two Witnesses based on a Scripture with Scripture study without having to speculate as Revelation is the restoration of Israel during and after the Tribulation and is written specifically to Tribulation Jews. The speculations on Enoch being one of the witnesses is entirely unScriptural and untenable as Enoch had nothing to do with the nation of Israel, Moses and Elija had everything to do with Israel. The Two Olive Trees,, their presence at the transfiguration and their presence in Rev. 11 clearly make that point. The plagues, turning the waters to blood clearly make Moses the Witnesse we are contending over as these are the events God gave him the power to do in Exodus 7-12.

Speculating? We have Moses, Elijah, Zerubbable, Enoch, etc., that fit the bill as the witnesses. Previously, as Moses and Elijah were named on the mount of Transfiguration, I thought, as you, that they were the "two" witnesses. However, I now understand them to be TYPES for the witnesses. Those that overcome, as they did, will be with Jesus. The witnesses are those that witness for Him now and at the end of this age.

Quote:

If we are going to speculate, let's speculate based on what is in the Scriptures, let them define themselves and answer their own questions.

Grace and peace friends.

Tony

I agree.....allow the Scriptures to answer.....

Ruth 4:11 And all the People that were in the gate, and the elders, said, "We are witnesses......

Isaiah 43:10-12 Ye are My witnesses." saith the LORD, :"and My Servant Whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He: before Me there was no GOD formed, neither shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside Me there is no saviour. I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are My witnesses," saith the LORD, that I am GOD.

Isaiah 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even My witnesses. Is there a GOD beside Me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Acts 10:41-43 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with Him after He rose from the dead. And He commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is He Which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To Him give all the prophets witness, that through His name whosoever believeth in Him shall receive the remission of sins."

1 Thessalonians 2:10 Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe.

Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
  #44  
Old 06-23-2009, 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by whirlwind View Post
Speculating? We have Moses, Elijah, Zerubbable, Enoch, etc., that fit the bill as the witnesses. Previously, as Moses and Elijah were named on the mount of Transfiguration, I thought, as you, that they were the "two" witnesses. However, I now understand them to be TYPES for the witnesses. Those that overcome, as they did, will be with Jesus. The witnesses are those that witness for Him now and at the end of this age.




I agree.....allow the Scriptures to answer.....

Ruth 4:11 And all the People that were in the gate, and the elders, said, "We are witnesses......

Isaiah 43:10-12 Ye are My witnesses." saith the LORD, :"and My Servant Whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He: before Me there was no GOD formed, neither shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside Me there is no saviour. I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are My witnesses," saith the LORD, that I am GOD.

Isaiah 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even My witnesses. Is there a GOD beside Me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Acts 10:41-43 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with Him after He rose from the dead. And He commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is He Which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To Him give all the prophets witness, that through His name whosoever believeth in Him shall receive the remission of sins."

1 Thessalonians 2:10 Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe.

Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Note that Whirlwind asserts his superior knowledge to you.

“I thought, as you,………………… However, I now understand”.


He tells us to “allow the Scriptures to answer” then produces verses that have no relevance to the topic at hand.

He tells us to “allow the Scriptures to answer”, but denies the very words of Scripture.
Revelation 11
3. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5. And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6. These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7. And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
He then throws in smiley faces because he thinks its funny to mock the Word of God. I mentioned a while back about dealing with a young man who had gotten off into the "serpent seed" teaching. Whirlwind sounds just like him.
  #45  
Old 06-23-2009, 08:25 AM
whirlwind
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Originally Posted by CKG View Post
Note that Whirlwind asserts his superior knowledge to you.

“I thought, as you,………………… However, I now understand”.


He tells us to “allow the Scriptures to answer” then produces verses that have no relevance to the topic at hand.

He tells us to “allow the Scriptures to answer”, but denies the very words of Scripture.

If I have done something to offend you then I apologize. However....I don't know what has caused you to be so defensive. I agreed to "let the Scriptures answer" as that was what the original poster suggested...and it is always the best policy. I did just that...with relevant verses if one is willing to see the relevance. Not all will.

Quote:
Revelation 11
3. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


Please notice that there is an AND between the olive trees and candlesticks. That alone tells us there are not two.

Quote:
5. And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6. These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7. And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
Quote:
He then throws in smiley faces because he thinks its funny to mock the Word of God. I mentioned a while back about dealing with a young man who had gotten off into the "serpent seed" teaching. Whirlwind sounds just like him.

If smiley faces "mock the Word of God" may I ask why they are available on a Christian website? If this is how you "deal" with a child of God I must wonder how you "love" your enemy.
  #46  
Old 06-23-2009, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by whirlwind View Post
If I have done something to offend you then I apologize. However....I don't know what has caused you to be so defensive. I agreed to "let the Scriptures answer" as that was what the original poster suggested...and it is always the best policy. I did just that...with relevant verses if one is willing to see the relevance. Not all will.



Please notice that there is an AND between the olive trees and candlesticks. That alone tells us there are not two.




If smiley faces "mock the Word of God" may I ask why they are available on a Christian website? If this is how you "deal" with a child of God I must wonder how you "love" your enemy.
The two olive trees and two candlesticks refer to the same two people. How do I know?
Revelation 11
3. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
It plainly says the TWO witnesses are the TWO olive trees, AND the TWO candlesticks. Later on they are referred to as the TWO prophets.
Revelation 11
10. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

This is how I deal with those who reject the plain words of the KJV.
  #47  
Old 06-23-2009, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by CKG View Post
The two olive trees and two candlesticks refer to the same two people. How do I know?
Revelation 11
3. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
It plainly says the TWO witnesses are the TWO olive trees, AND the TWO candlesticks. Later on they are referred to as the TWO prophets.
Yes it does plainly say that the two witnesses are the two olive trees AND the two candlesticks...they are all the "two prophets." They are also referred to as the "two anointed ones." They are two groups. They are the great cloud of witnesses.

Quote:

This is how I deal with those who reject the plain words of the KJV.

11 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
  #48  
Old 06-23-2009, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by chette777 View Post
"here is my view.

It is either two totally unknown Jewish believers in Christ who will be revealed during that time.

or it is Enoch of Gen5:24 and Elijah. Neither Enoch or Elijah died. And the scriptures tell us that it is appointed for every man to DIE ONCE then face judgement. Will Moses or John be risen to die again? Remember it can not violate Gods finished complete inspired inerrant preserved word of God.

also remember a glorified body can not face destruction or corruption it is free from that. the two witness have their head cut off that is destruction and they die. Corruption by Jewish standards starts as early as 3 1/2 to 4 days after death hence the reason God did not leave Christ in the grave and raised him on the third day and fulfill the scripture that his holy one would not see corruption. Also Rev 11:11 And AFTER three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. were their heads on their bodies when they stood up? We are not told? headless bodies standing up would answer why so many feared them.

Moses nor any righteous OT saint have glorified bodies yet. they have to face the GWT judgement of all the dead and enter the New Jerusalem to eat of the tree of life and drink of the rivers of the water of life. that is why we read for Israel that some are raised to everlasting glory and some to everlasting destruction in the last day." Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
John 5:28, 29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Aloha brother Chette,

For what it's worth consider and compare:

Quote:
Hebrews 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:


28
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Please consider:
Quote:
1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
The Bible states: The Lord "will have ALL MEN {ALL = "Inclusive"} to be saved" - But are "ALL MEN" {ALL = "Inclusive"} going "to be saved"? And Do ALL MEN "come unto the knowledge of the truth"?
Quote:
Acts 22:15 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
Are the "all men" in the Scripture verse above "inclusive" of ALL MEN that were alive on the earth at this time? Of course not. The word "ALL" in the Bible can be speaking "in general" (and NOT be "all inclusive") or it can be "all inclusive" as in:
Quote:
1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
Obviously - the "meaning" is determined by the context.

The Scriptures state:
"it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" The Scriptures did NOT "SAY": that "all men" MUST DIE; and they do NOT say: that "all men" MUST DIE ONLY ONCE. The Scriptures state: "it is appointed" - Hebrews 9:27 is a general statement of fact - there have been EXCEPTIONS - Enoch & Elijah foremost, PLUS all those people who were raised from the dead in both the Old Testament and the New Testament (who died again - a second time) - the Bible has recorded EXCEPTIONS to the "general rule", of that none of us can deny. So what do we do?

Now we know and believe that there are NO errors or contradictions in the Bible, so then when we come to a verse such as Hebrews 9:27 we must search the Scriptures and seek the mind of Christ in this matter in order to determine "what is truth".

The "truth" is that there are recorded instances in the Holy Scriptures of people (Enoch & Elijah) who NEVER DIED. That being the case - "it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" CANNOT "mean" that "all men" MUST DIE! {Because there have been "EXCEPTIONS"}

And the "truth" is that there are recorded instances in the Holy Scriptures of people who died, (both in the Old & New Testaments) and who were raised from the dead, and who DIED AGAIN, i.e. A SECOND TIME! That being the case - "it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" CANNOT "mean" that "all men" MUST DIE ONLY ONCE. {Because again, there have been "EXCEPTIONS"}

This being the case, we are faced with the fact that either there are contradictions in the Holy Bible (which I do not accept or believe), or: "it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" is a "general rule" and does NOT "MEAN" (what many make it "mean") that "all men" MUST DIE; or that "all men" MUST DIE ONLY ONCE.

Now on to the "two witnesses". The Tribulation is called "the time of Jacob's trouble". [Jeremiah 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.] That being the case - then the Tribulation is peculiarly Jewish, having to do with God calling His people (the nation of Israel) back to Him.

Would God use a "Gentile" to call His people? I doubt it! No, whoever the "two witnesses" are, they are definitely going to be "HEBREWS" - that's how God dealt with the Israelites all throughout the Old Testament; throughout the Lord's earthly ministry (the Four Gospels); and throughout the Book of Acts.

God has always used Hebrews (Prophets or Apostles) to deal with His Hebrew children, and I don't believe that He is going to change the "pattern" in the Tribulation. And knowing how stubborn and self-righteous the Jews are - do you really think that they will listen to some Gentile? I doubt it.

I believe that brother Tony and brother Sammy and some of the other brethren are correct. I believe that the two witnesses will be Moses and Elijah. Neither one of them possess a "glorified" body yet, and so both of them would still be subject to DEATH!

Enoch is a "type" of the "believer" (in the church age) who will NEVER DIE. Moses is a "type" of the "believer" (A "Hebrew" believer - in the Tribulation) who will die in the Tribulation, and who will be "raised" (without a "glorified" body) to go into the Millennial reign of Christ, and who will die AGAIN in it. And Elijah is a "type" of the "believer" (A "Hebrew" believer -in the Tribulation) who will live through it and be caught out near the end, who will return for the Millennial reign of Christ, and who will die in it.

These are doctrines and beliefs that many of us hold, but certainly are NOT "Fellowship" breakers. I will not argue or debate over this issue, because there is too much speculation involved and not enough Scripture to make this one of the Major doctrines. This is a personal "conviction" that I hold, but I do not "insist" that you or anyone else MUST believe as I do in this matter.

As brother Tony would say - "Grace and peace" brother.

Last edited by George; 06-23-2009 at 12:14 PM.
  #49  
Old 06-23-2009, 02:02 PM
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Are the "two witnesses" two literal entities or...two groups of witnesses?

Revelation 11:3-4 And I will give power unto My two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth” These are the two olive trees AND the two candlesticks, standing before the God of the earth.
For some reason I always saw that verse as the olive trees and candlesticks being the same thing. They are not. He explains:

Zechariah 4:2 And said unto me, "What seest thou?" And I said, "I have looked, and behold, a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:"

Christ of course is that One golden candlestick and from Him the olive trees and candlesticks receive the Holy Oil which gives His Light to the world. But, what are those olive trees and candlesticks...for they together are the two witnesses.

Revelation 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
Christ, The Golden Candlestick was in the midst of seven candlesticks which He explains are "the seven churches." Notice that in the millennium He is with the seven churches but...not before the millennium. Then He is only among two churches.

Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in My right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks, The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
So, we see that candlesticks are churches and two of those seven are "standing before the God of the earth." [Revelation 11:4] Those two I believe would be Philadelphia and Smyrna because of what they teach. There are many more folks than two that make up the congregation of those two churches/candlesticks. But, what of the two olive trees? What does that mean?

Zechariah 4:3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.

Romans 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
We are told in [Zechariah 4:12-14] that the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth, are the two olive branches. Those branches have many twigs.


Those two anointed ones are two of the seven churches and the two olive trees....both wild and natural.


Psalms 52:8 But I am like a green olive tree in the house of God: I trust in the mercy of God for ever and ever.

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto Me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”

Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

10:41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with Him after He rose from the dead.


Isaiah 43:10. Ye are My witnesses,” saith the Lord, “and My Servant Whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He: before Me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after Me.

43:12 I have declared and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are My witnesses,” saith the Lord, “that I am God.


Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
The two witnesses, the two prophets, the two anointed ones are made up of two of the seven churches and two olive trees which are Gentile and of Israel. Together they take His message, the oil from Him, to the world.
  #50  
Old 06-23-2009, 07:10 PM
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George,

I agree all men do not have to die. And I know all men don't die physically. as I stated we are already dead in Christ which fulfills that for us. though some of us may die before the rapture.

Now, while we have a clear scriptures that Elijah would come in the last days to prepare the ways for the Lord and Jesus said that it was John who was Elijah. and Mal 4:5 tells us Elijah's duty was to turn the hearts of the father to the children. it says nowhere there that Elijah would call down fire upon Jerusalem or do signs and wonders. And in all that the two witnesses do in Revelation no one is believing or fathers turning to their children that is indicated.

the one scripture Sammy used from Mal4:4 did not say anything about Moses coming in the last days as he said it did. It was speaking about remembering the law of Moses.

So where is the scriptures does is speak of Moses coming in the last days?

Now I think I may have been wrong in saying Moses and Ejiah did not have glorified bodies. I found these scriptures in Luke 9:30,31 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem. that say both Moses and Elijah appeared in Glory. that would make them glorified would it not? What comes after the colon is added details concerning those before the colon who were and glory and spake, if I remember my English grammar correctly. but then again it says only that they appeared in glory not that they were glorified.

Anyway like I said my mind is not made up.
 

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