Doctrine Discussion about matters of the faith.

View Poll Results: Is water baptism Biblically correct for believers today?
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Yes
29 85.29%
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No
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  #161  
Old 05-19-2009, 07:10 PM
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johnlf johnlf is offline
 
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Default Interesting thread

Interesting thread.

First off, let me introduce myself. I am the husband of Greenbear and have been a Christian for 23 years. This is my first post, so I am not sure when or if it will be posted. I have been KJV only ever since I read Gail Riplinger's "New Age Bible Versions" and found the arguments(not her wit) extremely compelling. I have also followed Brother Brandon's works over the years and commend him.

I have never been a member of any denomination, not out of any peculiar aversion, but rather a strong distrust of any and all traditions of men. I have been of a similar conviction as Brother Tonybones for about as long as I have been KJV only. I simply encountered the arguments from the Scripure and could not refute them using Scripture. The particular book that opened my eyes was Brother Noah Hutching's "Why so Many Churches?".

Ever since I became a Christian I have encountered various sects. Some of which I agree with very little on and others with which I agree with much. But I remain perplexed to this day as to why so many Christians feel the need to divide up into little groups according to their traditions.

I will say that I have found two groups to be the "most" correct in what they espouse. The first being the Plymouth Bretheren, who seem to be quite dispensationally astute, but weak on the critical issue of Bible versions. The second being the Fundamental Baptists, who are rock solid on Bible versions, but often seem to border on legalism when it comes to their traditions.

After reading the tone of a number of posts in this thread, the verse comes to mind:

20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.

1 Corinthians 14
King James Bible

That said, I'd like to address some issues. Let me give an example. If I go out to the mailbox and find a letter from the government stating that I am in violation of some law, you can be assured that I will be quick to act. But what if it turns out that by accident the postman put a letter addressed to my neighbor in my mailbox. Well, that's a whole different story. I would breathe a sigh of relief and take the letter to its intended recipient.

"16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

Matthew 28
King James Bible

Now I humbly submit to you that this is not my "mail". I do not teach nations. And most certainly do not teach them to observe things.

"23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God"

1 Corinthians 1
King James Bible

What Christ was commanding his Jewish disciples to do was to fulfill the mission of their Kingdom. To be a light unto the Gentiles. But they failed that mission. But did they fail that mission because they crucified Christ? Of course not, because this commission was given AFTER Christ had already risen!

Just as Christ commanded them later in Acts:

"6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."

Acts 1
King James Bible

Later they were empowered by the Holy Spirit to carry out that very mission:

"14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:"

Again, we are seeing the Jews now being empowered by the Holy Spirit in the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy. The beginning of the conversion of the nation of Israel had begun. But they never were able to continue by fulfilling the rest of the commission. Why? Because they were unable to convert the nation and receive back their King:

"17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers. 18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people."

Acts 3
King James Bible

Here is a call for national repentance. And what was the response to the call? A number of 5000 believers but rejection by the authorities:

"1 And as they spake unto the people, the priests, and the captain of the temple, and the Sadducees, came upon them, 2 Being grieved that they taught the people, and preached through Jesus the resurrection from the dead."

Acts 4
King James Bible

Finally, God gave the nation one more chance to believe and begin to fulfill its mission to make known to the world the coming Kingdom of God and its resurrected king Jesus Christ:

"12 And they stirred up the people, and the elders, and the scribes, and came upon him, and caught him, and brought him to the council, 13 And set up false witnesses, which said, This man ceaseth not to speak blasphemous words against this holy place, and the law: 14 For we have heard him say, that this Jesus of Nazareth shall destroy this place, and shall change the customs which Moses delivered us. 15 And all that sat in the council, looking stedfastly on him, saw his face as it had been the face of an angel.

51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth. 55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. 57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, 58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. 59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. 60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Acts 7
King James Bible

The nation has now rejected her king for the second time and will not at this time be able to fullfill her mission. God's hidden mystery for how the nations will be reached is now laid at the feet of Saul, but the terrible prophecies of Luke are soon to be fulfilled:

"20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."

And the mystery of the ages, one body, is revealed through one man:

1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: 7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. 8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

Ephesians 3
King James Bible

The twice failed commission of Israel is set aside for a mystery. And when that body is complete and removed, Israel will once again be given a chance to fulfill her mission, and this time she will succeed:

"1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God."

Revelation 14
King James Bible

It is my belief that baptism was set aside as Israel was set aside. And just as the keeping of law did not abruptly end in Acts, but was slowly phased out, Baptism was too. JMHO
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  #162  
Old 05-19-2009, 07:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredoheaven View Post
Our Lord Jesus gave us a very specific, clear command in Matthew 28:19 for the believers to follow. This command to baptized "...in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" is a compelling evidence of the importance of water baptism from his other commandments.

While, it has nothing to do with our salvation because of Ephesians 2:8 said "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:", it is a mandate fo us to do. Specifically, water baptism is:

1. An Identity. Christ was baptized by the John the Baptist to identify himself with his people as Prophet, Priest and King. John's baptism of water for him is not unto repentance but rather an identification as an awaited Messiah yet his people received him not.

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

2. A Preparation. John the Baptist is the forerunner of our Lord and he was the one prepared the way of the Lord. This preparation was that of Christ publick earthly ministry.

Matthew 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Christ commanded to baptized and the disciples followed it. Noticed that, following those who beleived the preaching of the Gospel as foretold were baptized and then teach all things commanded by Christ.Of course, some Christ command may not be physically applicable for us today but the spiritual application was meant for us. Peter began preaching and do the same as told in the Book of Acts. The preaching or the message of the Gospel by Peter was the same as of that Paul only the scope of Paul was more of the Gentile.

The message of Christ command is still today hence Christ will be with us even until the end of the world. As a Baptist, will not be hesitant to declare God's saving grace to the lost sinners and immediately baptized believers if it needs be and teach other things corncerning Christ. Scriptural baptism is a must for believers of today.

Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Because of Jesus' command in Matthew 28 and the examples of believers in the book of Acts I believe in baptism for a person who has been saved. Having said that sometimes I'm confused by the hurry to get a person baptized and by the "baptism is the first step of obedience" teaching. You said

Quote:
it has nothing to do with our salvation because of Ephesians 2:8,
but you also said

Quote:
will not be hesitant to declare God's saving grace to the lost sinners and immediately baptized believers
What happens if a person is not immediately baptized? Neither Paul, Peter, John, James, or Jude address tardy baptism. What's wrong with telling the new believer about baptism and then let the Holy Spirit lead them?
  #163  
Old 05-19-2009, 08:54 PM
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Bro. Craig,

Yap bro.,we need to proclaim the Gospel to the lost sinners and when one believed Christ as his Saviour, we can tell the new believer about water baptism. If the new believer agreed that he be baptized then we have them baptized, but if not then that still ok, he is still a SAVED person and a brother in Christ but still we have to admonish him to do the same in a later time or as the Holy Spirit leads him. I think there is no problem for this immediate baptism of believer as practice by the early believers in Acts. Actually, there's no really problem to those who gladly received the gospel and expressed them in their obedience to the waters of baptism.

Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized...
John 14:15 If you love me, keep my commandments.
Acts 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water;what doth hinder me to be baptized?

Last edited by Fredoheaven; 05-19-2009 at 09:05 PM.
  #164  
Old 05-19-2009, 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by johnlf View Post
It is my belief that baptism was set aside as Israel was set aside. And just as the keeping of law did not abruptly end in Acts, but was slowly phased out, Baptism was too. JMHO
Hello John,

Welcome to the forum, may I ask are you a friend of Tonybones? I'm kind of sorry that you chose to select this controversial thread to make your first post, but it is what it is, and I will continue to add doctrinal corrections to the thread whenever things like the above comment are posted. My reply is in no way an "attack" on you, but for doctrinal clarity only.

Unfortunately that belief and opinion you have of believer's baptism being "phased out" is not found in the Bible. And believer's baptism is NOT RESTRICTED TO ISRAEL nor was baptizing in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost EVER PART OF ANY LAW of the Old Testament. The word baptism is not found in the Old Testament, we are not discussing Old Testament washings, we are on the topic of believer's baptism and your confusion is actually quite common among some groups of Christians, particularly among hyperdispensationalists and those who follow Bullingerism—sometimes without even realizing it.

Paul was baptized in water (Acts 9:18) and baptized some of his converts in water (Acts 16:33; 18:8, 1 Cor. 1:14-16). The Lord Jesus Christ was baptized in water, the apostles who followed Him and wrote part of our New Testament were baptized in water. The Corinthian converts who were baptized by ONE Spirit into ONE Body (1 Cor. 12:13) were ALSO baptized in water (Acts 18:8).

Certainly Paul knew this...

"Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." Roman 6:4

"Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead." Col 2:12


The trembling, suicidal Phillipian jailer didn't ask what he could do to observe the law of Moses, or how to be consecrated as a Levite—that's not anywhere in Acts 16. He asked, "Sirs, WHAT MUST I DO TO BE SAVED?" The context here is the Gospel and SALVATION BY GRACE, exactly as it is discussed today. (Acts 16:30-31)

Baptism was not part of the law to Paul and Silas, who preached the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the Phillipian jailer and also I'm sure explained the importance of believer's baptism as a first step of identification with Christ (in this case even in the middle of the night), saying:

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. And he took them the SAME HOUR OF THE NIGHT, and washed their stripes; AND WAS BAPTIZED, HE AND ALL HIS, STRAIGHTWAY." Acts 16:31-33

Believer's Baptism is not a part of the law of Moses, and it's not a "sacrament" that imparts saving grace, but an ORDINANCE of the blood bought church of Jesus Christ. We are not saved by baptism, but by faith in Jesus Christ and His blood..."cleanseth us from all sin" (1 John 1:7).

Baptism is the outward symbol of what has already transpired in the heart of the one who has trusted the Lord Jesus Christ for full salvation. Paul and Silas KNEW THAT. The Phillipian jailer KNEW THAT. The Ethiopian eunuch KNEW THAT.

To anyone reading this;
Believer's baptism is not Baptist thology, it's Bible doctrine and an ordinance of the New Testamant church. That's why I was baptized long before I ever became a Baptist. Have you taken this first step of identification with Christ since you were saved? (Acts 8:35-38, I Peter 2:21) Have you followed the word of God concerning this matter of believer's baptism? In Acts 2:41 we read, "Then they that GLADLY received his word were baptized..."

Last edited by Bro. Parrish; 05-19-2009 at 10:17 PM.
  #165  
Old 05-20-2009, 12:44 AM
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Ethiopian Eunuch Acts 8, Acts 2, are either Israel or a convert to Judaism. so their baptism is that of John's Baptism as commanded in Matthew 28.

The Philippian keeper of the Jail was a whole other event and it had to do with Paul's position as the Apostle to the Gentiles. he and his whole house believed on Christ it is said later they believed in God he and his whole house. they were baptized but it is not said why. it could be just the way Paul did things early on and that later changed. by his address to the Corinthians Paul doesn't even mention baptizing the Jailer in his testimony of who he baptized. 1Cor 1:14-17 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Last edited by chette777; 05-20-2009 at 12:53 AM.
  #166  
Old 05-20-2009, 08:24 AM
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Perhaps Paul did not mention the Philippian jailer to the Corinthians because he was listing those in Corinth (names with whom they would have been familiar) "...of you, but... (verse 14)" that he baptized, not the entire list of any that he had ever baptized. It is obvious that he did not keep records, but are you claiming that he "forgot" the jailers' family "...I know not whether..."?

The other slight possibility is that "...I baptized also the household of Stephanas..." is referring to the jailer and his family. Although this is likely not true, based on the regional location of Philippi in Macedonia and not in Achaia, from which Stephanas was said to be the "firstfruits". (I Cor 16:15)

Last edited by Brother Tim; 05-20-2009 at 08:32 AM.
  #167  
Old 05-20-2009, 09:17 AM
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Default Re: "Is water baptism for today?"

Brother Parrish said to "johnlf":
Quote:
"Welcome to the forum, may I ask are you a friend of Tonybones? I'm kind of sorry that you chose to select this controversial thread to make your first post, but it is what it is, and I will continue to add doctrinal corrections to the thread whenever things like the above comment are posted. My reply is in no way an "attack" on you, but for doctrinal clarity only."
Aloha brother Parrish,

I doubt if "johnlf" is a friend of Tonybones, but I am in agreement with your comment on "johnlf's" "first" Post. WHY all this concern about "WATER"? (Baptism) I could never understand it (i.e. being overly concerned with an issue that has NO BEARING on our salvation, or our standing with God), so I have stayed away from the controversy.

This "Thread" was started when brother Tim inquired about brother Tony's belief. I knew ahead of time where this was going, and that is why I tried to head it off to begin with. If you will recall I said (Post #16):
Quote:
"I personally don't want to see a "debate" over water baptism; we all know what he believes - what will such a debate accomplish? Who will be "edified"? Is the purpose going to be to "isolate" a fellow brother in Christ and possibly drive him away? I want no part in this."
I don't know WHO "johnlf" is (he has not seen fit to tell us anything about himself - another "stranger"), but I am concerned that he might be here to disrupt and not to edify. I also said (in Post #16):
Quote:
"If brother Tony came on this Forum and had been obnoxious or antagonistic over the issue, that would be another matter, but he has been careful not to push it, while still letting it be known where he stands. I respect his honesty, even if I disagree with him. And if we were sitting around the kitchen table hashing water baptism out with him, I would "put my oar" in once in a while in support of my belief. But I do not think that the Forum is the place for a knock-down, drag-out battle over water baptism since I know ahead of time that there will be absolutely no profit in the debate at all, and the only thing that we may accomplish is "hard feelings' (or worse) over an issue that has very little bearing on the spiritual state of individual Christians."
I ask you to "compare" HOW brother Tony joined the Forum and HOW "johnlf" has (check out his Posts).

This issue has been "beat to death" and I see NO PROFIT in "resurrecting it" again! In my Post #16 I also said:
Quote:
"There are Scriptural issues that are worth fighting over (and you know that I don't "shy away" from them), but on the other hand there are issues where there is no "profit", i.e. no "edification" to be had. I would suggest we stop biting and devouring one another, and get on with the business at hand: "the ministry of reconciliation". Let sleeping dogs lie brethren, this thing could come back and bite us - big time. Worse yet, if we succeed in driving brother Tony away, we would have lost a fountain of Biblical knowledge , and a "viewpoint" that is both refreshing and unique."
Now I know that I am not a "prophet", but I can say - I TOLD YOU SO!

If "johnlf" is here to edify and be edified he should have the courtesy to introduce himself first, before "wading into" (no pun intended) a controversial issue (and that's not the only one) that has brought NO PROFIT or EDIFICATION at all to any of us!
  #168  
Old 05-20-2009, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by chette777 View Post
Ethiopian Eunuch Acts 8, Acts 2, are either Israel or a convert to Judaism. so their baptism is that of John's Baptism as commanded in Matthew 28.
I hear you, but sorry I don't see it that way Chette. John's baptism was never commanded in Matt. 28. John's baptism was PRE-RESURRECTION and was never in the name of the "Father Son and Holy Ghost," per Matt. 28. You won't ever find John baptizing anyone in that manner, anywhere in the Bible. It's not that complicated.

Furthermore, I see nothing in Acts 8 that says the baptism of the Ethiopian was John's baptism. Phillip preached the resurrected Christ and heart salvation, not the message of John. (Acts 8:35-37) The idea that the Ethiopian was a convert to Judaism is of no consequence here; Jews got saved by Grace, just like they do now.

Brother Freedoheaven (your brother in the Phillipines) is correct on this when he stated:
"Our Lord Jesus gave us a very specific, clear command in Matthew 28:19 for the believers to follow. This command to baptized "...in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" is a compelling evidence of the importance of water baptism from his other commandments."

Last edited by Bro. Parrish; 05-20-2009 at 01:25 PM.
  #169  
Old 05-20-2009, 01:55 PM
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Hi all,

I apologize if I offended anyone by not properly introducing myself. I understand that there are screening processes involved to keep the enemy from trying to destroy the board. That is unfortunate, as I am a very strong advocate of free speech, but it is understandable.

I have updated my avatar to let you know a little bit more about me, and no, I only know Tony from what he has posted on this board. I actually introduced myself by posting a few threads that all popped in once I was okayed by the moderator.

I'm not sure why this issue is so controversial, for me it's just another minor disagreement amongst sincere believers. But I would be dishonest if I were to not openly admit that it is my opinion that dispensationalists display a deeper understanding of the Scriptures. This understanding enables them to explain a greater number of "difficult" passages than your traditional "church" doctrine followers are able to.

My advice to anyone who gets really upset about these things is to honestly examine themselves to find out why, because I can see no other reason for an emotional reaction except that it originates in the flesh.

I have had many friendly disagreements with other believers over the years and have learned a lot about myself and the Scriptures, hence I always welcome a vigorous debate.

Over the years I have come to conclusions about a number of things that others have found very controversial, but to me is simply what the Bible teaches. For example I believe:

* Genesis 6 is about angels taking human wives producing giants
* The "baptism in the spirit" as practiced by charismatics produces demonic oppression
* Homosexuals are actually demon possessed
* The two witnesses are clearly Moses and Elijah
* Women pastors are in rebellion against God
* Most "Christian" music is of the devil
* Many Christian women dress no better than prostitutes

I cannot tell you how many times one or more of those positions has caused a near riot amongst other believers which I find quite surprising. I cannot help but wonder if that reaction comes from a very agitated fleshly nature. The current topic in my mind is no more controversial than any of those other topics.
  #170  
Old 05-20-2009, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by johnlf View Post
I'm not sure why this issue is so controversial, for me it's just another minor disagreement amongst sincere believers. But I would be dishonest if I were to not openly admit that it is my opinion that dispensationalists display a deeper understanding of the Scriptures. This understanding enables them to explain a greater number of "difficult" passages than your traditional "church" doctrine followers are able to.
John, I appreciate your polite response. And for the record, I think you are 100 percent correct about the creatures of Genesis 6 and the daughters of men.

To the topic at hand:
Please understand most of us here subscribe to the scriptural application of RIGHTLY DIVIDING and the importance of dispensational truth. I have hard bound books on the subject in my library. However, since you say you are not coming from any type of church membership you probably have no idea of the discord and damage which WRONGLY DIVIDING (a.k.a. Hyperdispensationalism and Bullingerism) has created for many Bible believing churches and ministries.

The notion that believer's baptism is a dead work and part of the Mosaic Law (which has already been promoted here) is not a "minor" issue. When people come on here and tell everyone who was ever scripturally baptized that it was UNSCRIPTURAL, that is not a "minor" issue. It shows a deep misunderstanding of dispensational truth, and even though it's not really all that complicated, there are always a few hypers who MAKE it complicated. Anyone who has been in the ministry for 30 or 40 years knows this. Those of us who have seen this are more likely to be on guard for it. I encourage you to do more research on these issues.

We sometimes have people come to this forum who are confused over various issues, suggesting that we should worship on the Sabbath, avoid believer's baptism or avoid certain meats, etc. and for me, it's not "emotional or offending" as you have suggested—and it's certainly not a matter of "the flesh"—it's simply correct vs. incorrect Bible doctrine, and there are reasons for concern...

As I posed earlier, Ultradispensationalism can often come packaged with some other strange teachings. For example some of the adherents to Ultradispensationalism reject not only the ordinance of baptism with water but also the Lord’s Supper, proclaiming that the church of today is no longer to participate in ANY kind of ordinance. Some adherents of Ultradispensationalism also officially reject church attendance completely, such as Otis Q. Sellers in his pamphlet named "Christian Individualism." There are often many subtle folds to Bullingerism and its sister doctrines, and I am certainly NOT trying to project any or all of them onto ANY member of this forum, but I suspect that some of the new believers here are perhaps not aware of the complete history of this teaching, so I simply put it out there and let them decide for themselves. Others have had far more negative opinions on it over the years, to see where they are coming from please do read the comments here from Dr. Harry Ironside and David Walker:
http://www.gotothebible.com/HTML/wrongly1.html
http://www.victory-baptist.net/hyper.htm#_ftn13

Last edited by Bro. Parrish; 05-20-2009 at 02:48 PM.
 

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