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View Poll Results: Is water baptism Biblically correct for believers today?
Yes 29 85.29%
Yes
29 85.29%
No 5 14.71%
No
5 14.71%
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  #61  
Old 05-03-2009, 07:27 PM
Winman Winman is offline
 
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I voted yes, Matt 28:19
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  #62  
Old 05-03-2009, 08:08 PM
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what can happen with this topic is that this will rabbit trail into all sorts of dispensational issues such as Kingdom Church or Body of Christ, which Gospel, works vs faith alone. Of which many of you are so hard headed in your view you will fight tooth and nail to prove your right and not respect each other and you will end up calling people heretics and false teachers.

so let us remember Water Baptism is not essential to anyone's salvation or position in Christ.

Acts 2 once again needs to be dispensationally divided. you would use it for Baptism but not for sign gifts. Acts 2 is the Kingdom church while the Body of Christ is in latent form (already begun just not seen) the church here is the Kingdom church which later will transition into the church Age body of Christ. the Apostle Doctrines were not the faith alone in the cross doctrines, but the gospel of the Kingdom, baptism for the remission of sins, signs and wonders, good works to prove ones salvation. i.e. Simon the sorcerer part of his getting right was to "repent thereof". this man believed and was baptized but never received the Holy Ghost. not one person in that city received the Holy Ghost upon belief in Christ, they had to have hands laid on them to receive the Holy Ghost and by an Apostle.

Part of the commandment obedience to Matt 28 is the healing of the sick, casting out of devils, raising the dead, baptism for the remission of sins, taking no money when they travel to preach the gospel of the kingdom (which is one of 3 Gospels found in the NT). But if you take only the things you want and leave out the rest you are not obedient to Matthew 28. Acts 2 is a reflection of the Apostles obedience to the Matthew 28. but then they never GO, so God scatters them Israel rejects and we see the kingdom Church diminished and the Body of Christ Church arise and transition into the church age.

CKG,

The letter sent in Acts 15 was called ordinances too if I am not mistaken. of the "ordinances" he received as cited by Paul in 1Cor 11 he only clarifies one, so why not the rest? it is good to know why. the answer is in the type of Christians the Corinthians were portraying themselves to be (carnal). so he only talks about the one ordinance remembering the death of Christ.

and who was the one to decide that Baptism was the "first step of obedience" anyway? your first step was when you trusted Christ alone for your salvation. somewhere between there and Being Baptized repentance of sinfulness begins (so that would be second in obedience, assembling together to hear the word would be another step. you get my point.

Last edited by chette777; 05-03-2009 at 08:21 PM.
  #63  
Old 05-03-2009, 08:24 PM
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I brought up all these points because Baptism in water is not an issue that is clarified for the church age by the Apostle to the Gentile, it is not directed as such and not forbidden as such.

This is where rightly dividing the word of God must be actively practiced especially in the gospels and the Book of Acts.
  #64  
Old 05-03-2009, 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by chette777 View Post
so let us remember Water Baptism is not essential to anyone's salvation or position in Christ.
So far not one person on the entire thread has suggested that.
We're way beyond that here.
  #65  
Old 05-04-2009, 12:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish View Post
So far not one person on the entire thread has suggested that.
We're way beyond that here.
Unless there is a lurking Campbellite here brother. Though I am the main man on the other end of this discussion on water baptism, I also have never said in public in this forum, or in private, that anyone here is teaching that water baptism is essential and prerequisite for salvation. The issue in this thread is questioning me on why I believe it's not necessary as a public profession of faith nor operative as a Church ordinance in this present age. I think someone comes in here trying to teach it is would be jumped by all of us if our webmaster didn't boot and ban them first before we could get to them. So I agree with you, no on both counts: No one is teaching water baptism as essential for salvation, and I have not, am not now, nor will ever accuse any of you of teaching it. I've been in the Grace Movement for 25 years now and have had fellowship with people just like you all, and as you get to know me you will see we are in agreement on many, many things more than we differ.

I'm answering the messages in chronological order, so...back to the discussion.

Grace and peace

Tony
  #66  
Old 05-04-2009, 12:47 AM
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Kiwi Christian Kiwi Christian is offline
 
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I have a question for you Bro. Tony, in light of your belief about baptism being part of OT law and not applicable to the body of Christ, why do you think Paul exercised it (though he only baptised a few) and spoke about it in the Corinthian church? When Paul said "were ye baptized in the name of Paul?" in 1 Cori 1:13 the implication is that those Corinthian Christians had been baptised.

1 Corinthians 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. 16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
  #67  
Old 05-04-2009, 01:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish View Post
Well please don't bother to answer me on it individually, brother. Let me nip that in the bud. You were asked about it, you stated your position clearly and we can all see where you are coming from. I understand you're still in "first gear," but you're already smoking and leaking fluid from the tranny. As I already stated, I am quite convinced you are wrong on this concept, (as does the majority here) and you can copy, paste and underscore the entire Old Testament if you want, but attempting to change my mind on the ordinance of believer's baptism will only lead to a stronger rebuke and it won't edify anyone here I promise—so I will choose to "opt out" for the sake of unity. I'm sure we will cover each other's backs on many other issues. As I wrote in my last post, I feel we have other battles to fight together as brothers in Christ.
Brother, my valve seats are hardened and my tranny is a 727 Turbo from a Dodge policecar. Brother, I'm not cutting and pasting anything or prooftexting no more than the next man, I'm obeying Isaiah 28, I'm comparing precepts of the book of Hebrews with precepts of the OT. I'm going to answer each message addressed to me because I don't do drive-by expositions or comments and then opt out of the discussion. As I promised Brandon, when the whole thread opts out I am opting back to The Original Manuscript Fraud and we carry on. When the last of you has gone quiet then I go quiet. I am not the Holy Spirit and I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything.

That's your job, brother.

You have to break down the middle wall of partition J.R. Graves has put up between the books of Malachi and Matthew yourself, as I did. It's not up to me to prove that the baptism of repentance didn't come down from heaven as something given only to John the Baptist, and has it's roots in Exodus 19:

Ex 19:14 And Moses went down from the mount unto the people, and sanctified the people; and they washed their clothes.

Westcott and Hort along with Origen ended the book of Mark at Mark 16:8. The sobering fact is that the vast majority of fundamentalists read Mark 16 and then end it at verse 16 and there is a mental block about reading verses 17 and 18:

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Then, like Paul, the scales fall from our eyes and we go right into verse 19 and on to the end of the book.

When we follow the Lord in believers baptism, let's see then what should be in operation for the Church today, in the order that the Lord gave them above:

Cast Out Devils- Acts 16:16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:
17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.
18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.
Speaking With New Tongues- Acts 2:7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
Take Up Serpents-Acts 28:3 And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand.
4 And when the barbarians saw the venomous beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live.
5 And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm.
Drink Any Deadly Thing: Revelation 8:10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter. Note: The drinking of poisoned water will be fulfilled in the Tribulation, there is no record of this taking place in Acts.
Laying Hands On The Sick And They Recover- Acts 28:8 And it came to pass, that the father of Publius lay sick of a fever and of a bloody flux: to whom Paul entered in, and prayed, and laid his hands on him, and healed him.
9 So when this was done, others also, which had diseases in the island, came, and were healed:

Brother, why is it many fundamentalists place all the emphasis on the Commission of Matthew 28 yet ignore the Commission of Mark 16? And why is Jewish water baptism, the first sign of a Levitical consecration, AKA Following The Lord In Believers Baptism, still in operation today yet the signs that followed, as the book of Acts above demonstrate, aren't?

Brother Parrish, I have friends here, I know some people in this forum better than others, and I will be honest and say I have an Inner Circle of friends here, and you are one of those in it. Someone on this forum gave me a gift that was one of the nicest gifts I have ever gotten in my life and did so anonymously. But I discern you are stopping your participation here, because I think you feel that you, or someone else here, might respond to my unmoving position in a heated manner. I respect that. At the same time I don't think it's fair to start this discussion and then stop it at a point where one side, namely me, has not answered all the messages and responses to me. First of all, I refuse to let the discussion get heated. I asked George to moderate that, and I'm also under the governing of Brandon as webmaster. Second, the next reply in order was your's, after Chette's, I think it's message 57. I'm going to answer than message in the same manner I have answered all of them in this thread: Firmly and authoritatively, but to Christians I consider brothers.

I hope you accept my messages in the spirit I write them: With authority, without anger and sarcasm, but as a brother.

Grace and peace to you Brother Parrish

Tony
  #68  
Old 05-04-2009, 01:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish View Post
Well please don't bother to answer me on it individually, brother. Let me nip that in the bud. You were asked about it, you stated your position clearly and we can all see where you are coming from. I understand you're still in "first gear," but you're already smoking and leaking fluid from the tranny. As I already stated, I am quite convinced you are wrong on this concept, (as does the majority here) and you can copy, paste and underscore the entire Old Testament if you want, but attempting to change my mind on the ordinance of believer's baptism will only lead to a stronger rebuke and it won't edify anyone here I promise—so I will choose to "opt out" for the sake of unity. I'm sure we will cover each other's backs on many other issues. As I wrote in my last post, I feel we have other battles to fight together as brothers in Christ.
Brother Parrish, I apologize, your message i am yet to respond to is message #47, not #57.

Brother, we have to face the fact that we are not the only people reading this thread. I answered Tim's challenge in a brotherly fashion in that I feel you, and the majority here, are wrong about the Baptist concept of water baptism, as you, and the majority here, feel I am wrong. I'm sorry you dropped out. I hope the rest don't till we resolve both side's positions, if that happens, it's not going to reflect negatively on my position but on yours. There is also going to be no rebuke in this thread unless someone gets out of line. The purpose was not rebuke, but rebuttal, response, discussion, the end, on to our war with the Bible Correctors. Of all the people here I expected a Scriptural response from you, not rebuke. Rebuke is for FFF. I'm going to respect your decision and say plainly and directly that I hope you cool off from the urge to rebuke where no rebuke was elicited and will return to a discussion between brothers. You have to pardon my pedantic manner, I trained as a paralegal with the intent of becoming a criminal defense attorney and I try to cover all bases and nail all planks down.

Grace and peace and a great week to you.

Tony
  #69  
Old 05-04-2009, 02:33 AM
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First Step of Obedience....

This is something I am coming to grips with now. As soon as someone says that obedience is an action, a work, then straight-way, the believer is back under law and legality. No longer is he freed from the law, but that yolk of bondage is put back around his neck, and his baptism is no longer a proclamation, but a STEP of OBEDIENCE, which then allows him to continue in further STEPS of OBEDIENCE such as Lord's Supper and other ordinances. The believers life becomes one of rote obedience to the law of the church, rather than the freedom that is in Christ.

2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Knowing that when we believe on Christ, we are free from the law of sin and death, we are crucified with him, our life is dead, and the life we live is Christ's, we are given the MIND of Christ, and are to bring EVERY thought into captivity - whose captivity? - Christ's, who is our life!

While I believe baptism is for this age, I do not see it as a step of obedience, joining the church etc. It's simply public declaration of one's belief in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

As soon as one starts on that old Fundamental Baptist way of "obedience", one is immediately caught up in other rubbish - Men wear pants! Attend Everything regardless of anything else! Faithfulness to Church is #1! - In my experience, obedience to the church becomes a life of futility, whereas if I die to self, live through Christ, and let Him do all the obeying, I find my life prospers in the grace of God.
  #70  
Old 05-04-2009, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by tonybones2112 View Post
I'm sorry you dropped out. I hope the rest don't till we resolve both side's positions, if that happens, it's not going to reflect negatively on my position but on yours.
Nonsense. I'm sorry to see you pushing this, and the only "negative" is the view you are promoting under your banner of confusion. No one is angry or upset brother, just sad to see this continue.

We have stated our position scripturally in the beginning before you ever showed up, and you were allowed to state yours. Now you want to "resolve" the positions. What can that possibly mean brother, other than you seek to spread your leaven that believer's baptism is a dead work and part of the Mosaic Law?

It's sad really, and the saddest part is—now I'm wondering what other leaven you're harboring under the hood of your Dodge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonybones2112 View Post
Westcott and Hort along with Origen ended the book of Mark at Mark 16:8. The sobering fact is that the vast majority of fundamentalists read Mark 16 and then end it at verse 16 and there is a mental block about reading verses 17 and 18:

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
So now you are suggesting that the majority of responders to this thread as well as the majority of Baptist Pastors have a MENTAL BLOCK. See, this is the problem with doctrinal disputes—we can all sing Kumbaya and sip lemonade, but at the end of the day, they are still disputes and they do not edify. (Romans 16:17, I Tim. 4)

Make no mistake—the only mental block here is in those confused Christians who can't see that those verses in no way shape or form negate the clear INSTRUCTIONS in verse 15, and they certainly don't negate the clear INSTRUCTIONS of Matthew 28 either. It's still there, never moved—and all the devils, tongues, serpents, Bullingerites and Quakers in the universe won't move it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonybones2112 View Post
Of all the people here I expected a Scriptural response from you, not rebuke. Rebuke is for FFF.
Actually brother, "rebuke" is a Scriptural response. I think most of us generally try to temper it with love.

Brandon Staggs, what is your position on this issue of believer's baptism being part of the Mosaic Law?
 

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