True Jerry, but the seal I'm talking about is before the Great Tribulation even starts. This seal is the seal that the Holy Spirit seals believers with until the day of redemption(Eph 4 in addition to placing believers in the Body of Christ. All of that is soley based on putting ones trust the finished work at Calvary. However when the tribulation starts, people who get saved from that time on, will be in the state that O.T. saints were before Calvary. No one in the tribulation will be sealed by the Holy Spirit, or placed in to the Body of Christ by spiritual baptism, hence there will be an element of works i.e. keeping the commandents of God throughout the tribulation period ( Rev. 14:12 ; 12:17). Tribulation saints have faith in Jesus Christ, and keep the commandments of God. They also have to have the mark of the beast in order to buy and sell(Rev.13:17). Tribulation saints are going to starve because they cannot take the mark of the beast(Rev. 7:16), if they take it, they will lose their salvation (Rev.14:9-10) Many are martyed during that time for their faith in Jesus and testimony of his word (Rev 20:4 ; 6:9). The Church age saints that are raptured before the tribulation are in Rev. 5:8-12. And by the way, I apologize for any nasty remark towards you. I am not as well versed as alot on this post, and the reason I joined is so that I can learn from different sources, but then again I also learned that scripture with scripture, and rightly dividing the word of truth must prevail over opinions, and sometimes you can't always have nice little chit chats with others, especially when it comes to staying true to Authorized Version. Anyway, my apologies

[chette777]

the Book says, "...I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:" 1) God will not avenge unsaved people 2)They are saved because they are in heaven under Gods Altar which has been sprinkled with Jesus blood, their death was their work added to their faith their testimony they held. Yeah it may not say they were saved but most would agree these persons are saved tribulational saint.

I agree, Chette, it is pretty clear these martyrs were believers. If someone compares the order of the seven seals in Revelation with the order of events in Matthew, you will see that those souls under the altar were the Tribulation martyrs killed by the Antichrist and his followers.

Matthew 24:9-10 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

Revelation 6:9-11 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

It's not that you lose your salvation by doing nothing, it's that:
1. Faith without works is dead. So if you do not do anything, guess you were not exactly saved in the first place.
2. Blasphemy on the Holy Ghost hath no forgiveness, neither in this world, nor in the world to come. If someone falls away after having tasted the goodness of the Spirit, for him there is no coming back. Basically, no one can snatch you out of His hand, but you can leave yourself.
So... what were the counterarguments again?

[Luke]

oh.. great.... one of these guys..

"You can't lose your salvation, but you can give it up."
"You can't lose your salvation, but maybe you don't have it"

You have a ministry of doubt.

Ministry of doubt?
Great, let's start throwing verbal volleys at the credibility of a person without any Biblical evidence to the contrary.
And I could say, you have a ministry of concealing the Word.
But let's not: find some Biblical passages instead.

[chette777]

wwjd,

Go back and read this long thread.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by wwjd.usa

Ministry of doubt?
Great, let's start throwing verbal volleys at the credibility of a person without any Biblical evidence to the contrary.
And I could say, you have a ministry of concealing the Word.
But let's not: find some Biblical passages instead.

I've said the same thing about anyone that encourages an internal examination to constantly gauge whether one is saved or not (MacArthur, Comfort and most LS people). Faith in Christ is enough. If you are in the faith, you are in Christ. It has nothing to do with works.

I tried, but a lot of it is off-topic, and I do not have time atm to read all the posts to figure out what is wrong with my arguments. If you can quote a set of posts, that is fine, or we could wait until I have time to read and analyze all of them.

Originally Posted by Luke

I've said the same thing about anyone that encourages an internal examination to constantly gauge whether one is saved or not (MacArthur, Comfort and most LS people). Faith in Christ is enough. If you are in the faith, you are in Christ. It has nothing to do with works.

Well, I mean, of course it has nothing to do with the works that you do to stay saved, but it has to do with:
2. The works you do to lose your salvation.
1. The works you feel like doing because you are saved.