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  #91  
Old 04-18-2009, 03:28 PM
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Fredoheaven Fredoheaven is offline
 
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Yap, Bro. Chette, Our KJV, English bible is so complete that we should understand the meaning of it. Sorry for offending every body using other tongue other than our KJV English but even thanks for your reminder.

Yes Bro. Winman, before I came to know our Lord Jesus as my Saviour, all I have, was to "believed" to understand but when I came and join here in this Furom, I have to "understand" before I believe. So that before I believe your interpretation or anyones interpretation, I must see to it that "I understand to believe". Well, you have a nice try in intrepreting God's Word and you have many verses to prove them but like anybody in this forum, they have also the verse/s to prove and "caused to understand." Like it or not I should be just wise enough be like a Bereans...
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  #92  
Old 04-18-2009, 04:21 PM
Winman Winman is offline
 
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Fred

I am not sure I understand what you are saying, but I am not trying to offend you.

Neh 9:6 Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

Now, here God says he "made" the heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things therein, the seas, and all that is therein.

Now, that's pretty inclusive of EVERYTHING. The "heaven of heavens" surely means the highest or 3rd heaven. It also says "with all their host" immediately after which would include the angels. And at the end of the verse it says the "host of heaven" worshippeth thee. This surely is speaking about the angelic beings in the 3rd heaven, I seriously doubt it is speaking of birds flying in our atmosphere.

But do you see it says "made" here? It does not say "created" as in Gen 1:1. So here it is made very plain that when God says he "made" as in Gen 1:16, it is speaking of creation.

Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

And I am not interpreting this to suit myself. If you were to take any new believer and have them read Genesis chapter 1, they would believe that all creation from Gen 1:1 thru Gen 1:31 took place in six literal days. That is simply how it reads. There is absolutely no mention of a gap between verses 1:1 and 1:2 and nothing even faintly hinting at it.

It is only when people have been exposed to the gap theory that they begin to question the language like the word "was" in Gen 1:2.

Here is a good article on the language used in Genesis 1. I personally do not go for studying the meanings of words in the original languages, I believe God wrote the King James Bible in English for a purpose, that purpose to spread the Gospel across the world as Britain colonized on every continent. But this article goes into some depth on the subject.

http://ldolphin.org/gaptheory.html

Last edited by Winman; 04-18-2009 at 04:34 PM.
  #93  
Old 04-18-2009, 04:33 PM
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Fredoheaven Fredoheaven is offline
 
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Default Wrest God's Word

wrest (rst)
tr.v. wrest·ed, wrest·ing, wrests
1. To obtain by or as if by pulling with violent twisting movements: wrested the book out of his hands; wrested the islands from the settlers.
2. To usurp forcefully: wrested power from the monarchy.
3. To extract by or as if by force, twisting, or persistent effort; wring: wrest the meaning from an obscure poem.
4.
a. To distort or twist the nature or meaning of: wrested the words out of context.
b. To divert to an improper use; misapply

Ok, here are a few and I would like to borrow as quoted:

We know Lucifer was perfect when he was created.

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Satan must have rebelled against God after the six day creation, because God said every thing he had made (which would include Satan) was "very good" in Gen 1:31

And we see Satan as evil in Gen 3:1

So, Satan must have rebelled sometime during Genesis chapter 2. Gen 2:1 begins at the end of the sixth day, start of the seventh day.



I saw some wresting of God'S Word here by incosestent used of the word "Lucifer". The comment was said to be "Lucifer" ie perfect when he was created 'til iniquity found on him. In this case and for clarity sake, it must be "Lucifer" rebelled, and to believe that Satan must have rebelled sometime during Genesis chapter 2 is not a clear interpretation. The bible is silent as to this one so that we cannot conlude it as a "must". I think we used the prhase "may have" so that it cannot be said to be observing your own private interpretation especially when the Bible is silent on the matter.
  #94  
Old 04-18-2009, 05:18 PM
Winman Winman is offline
 
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Fredoheaven

I actually agree with you, there is no way to know for certain if Lucifer in Isaiah 14 is speaking of Satan. But the name of Lucifer has been associated with Satan by the church for centuries.

And besides, it is those that believe in the gap that claim Satan was cast to the earth between Gen 1:1 and 1:2. You don't find that in Ezekiel 28:

Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

First of all, we do not know that this "annointed cherub" is Satan. Second, if you read carefully, if this is indeed Satan, he had not been cast down yet. All references to him being cast down are future.

That contradicts the gap theory that claims Satan was cast down between Gen 1:1 and 1:2.

It is the gappers that actually use Isaiah 14 to support their theory.

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

It is gappers that claim verse 12 supports their view that Satan was cast down between Gen 1:1 and 1:2, citing the word "fallen". But if you read down to verse 15 you will see that it is in the future that he will be brought down.

I personally do not believe Satan has been cast down yet. I believe he will be cast down in Rev 12 which is future.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

There is no mistaking here, Satan is named. This is future. And we have scripture such as Job showing Satan in heaven long after the creation account.

Again, scripture contradicts the gap theory.

I have seen an inconsistency with those who believe in the gap. When it suits their purpose, they believe Lucifer is Satan. When it is shown to contradict the theory, then they argue otherwise.

I actually agree, Isa 14 may be only speaking of the King of Babylon.
  #95  
Old 04-18-2009, 06:22 PM
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chette777 chette777 is offline
 
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Again Winman you lump one Gap theories view of the casting down into a pot and say all those who believe in a Biblical Gap believe this.

The Casting down of Satan is two part like other doctrines of the Bible (i.e. the visitation of the Lord, the chastisement of Israel and others). He was indeed cast down from his position in heaven as anointed Cherub (as far as the duties of that position go) he may still claim the Title. his access to heaven is limited today to only being able to accuse the brethren. he has no general access as to mingle with the Holy angles of God on a daily basis. we believe his current home is actually our outer space or deep space. to which he will be cast down from 2 nd heaven during the 7 years Tribulation to face his maker.

Go to David Regan's site and read is anti-gap and gap study. he has done a great job of putting it together and I will borrow from some of his understanding to help in the final formulation of the Non-evolutionary Gap view.

http://www.learnthebible.org/search/node/gap
  #96  
Old 04-18-2009, 08:43 PM
Winman Winman is offline
 
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OK, here we go again. Fredoheaven criticizes me for saying that Lucifer is Satan. The you accuse me of lumping all gappers alike. Then you recommend David Regan's site (which I've seen before). And lo and behold, what does it say?

Quote:

Purpose of Original Earth (Ezekiel 28:14-17) (Isaiah 14:12-17)
•Lucifer sins – loses position in Heaven and is cast out•Causes chaos on Earth (desires to run the show – good and bad angel battle?)
Gen. 1:2 Judgment for Sin (Jeremiah 4:23, 26-28)
I am getting tired of this debate. If Ezekiel 28:14 is Satan, then he was not cast down yet in Ezekiel's time, if Isaiah 14 is Lucifer, he was not cast down yet at the time of Isaiah.

Neither of these passages show either "the annointed cherub that covereth" or "Lucifer" as being cast down at the time these scriptures were written which was long after Gen 1:1.

So both of these passages clearly contradict your gap theory. I really don't understand why you can't see this, it is very clear if you read those passages closely. Go back and read my post #94 where I show these passages and highlighted the words that show neither the annointed cherub of Eze 28 or Lucifer of Isa 14 as being cast down yet.

And I had seen that site quite awhile ago, and noted the similarities to your own beliefs. You really should just read the scriptures and not follow the doctrines of men.
  #97  
Old 04-19-2009, 01:30 AM
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chette777 chette777 is offline
 
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Ezk 28 is only a description of what he was before he was cast down. He is no longer the Cherub that covers or the covering Cherub. many believe what he covered the throne of God like the four that surround him.

At this moment of your reading Ezk 28 is Satan still in his perfect State?

Are you saying he still hold that covering position today? If so then you believe he is still leading worship in the third heaven using his Pipe and tabrets because he is not cast down yet.

Like I said he can claim the title but he is no longer covering as he was created to in the beginning. Ezk 28 says he was perfect UNTIL iniquity was found in him (past tense). which means he is no longer in that state and he no longer is covering, and he is no longer leading worship. he was cast out of the abode of God and currently lives in the second heaven and one day will be cast out of heaven during the tribulation to fulfill Ezk 28. and He was cast down in Ezkiels time you forget God is using this description to tell what he will do to the king of Tyre (who never was in heaven to be cast down). he will cast him down to the ground (the earth) and lay him before men. speaks both of the King of Tyre and Satan. not only that it does not say heaven in Ezk 28 it says cast tot he ground. you changed the word of God again to make ground the earth and the casting down to be from heaven. the mount of God might be in heaven but the word in Ezk 28 does not say heaven. I will cast thee to the ground, I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God out of his position and thought Lucifer was the King of Tyre was yet in Ezekiel's day to be cast out of his position and to the ground. your mixing two events as one (you have a tendency to do that)

there is nothing hard to see there. but you are blinded to Satan's current position. He is corrupt and he is not serving God as the anointed cherub that covereth. he has limited access to God throne and clearly the scriptures teach his current employment is accusing the brethren. and at one time in the past he came with the sons of God who had come to present themselves before him. as soon as he came he was asked where he had been. walking to and fro upon the earth. why the earth? why not to and fro amongst the stones of fire? they are in heaven and he is cast out to the earth just as Satan says in Job 1.

if you think he is living free in God's abode you are wrong for what fellowship can holiness have with wickedness, light with darkness, and it says that no sinner can come before the face of God without a covering of blood and Christ blood does not apply to Satan.

I am following scriptures no man has convinced me yet. I disagree with David Reagan on some points. the Gap is Biblical supported by many scriptures here a little there a little precept upon precept line upon line. only those blinded by God or pride cannot see it.

Last edited by chette777; 04-19-2009 at 01:46 AM.
  #98  
Old 04-19-2009, 01:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chette777 View Post
I am following scriptures no man has convinced me yet. I disagree with David Reagan on some points. the Gap is Biblical supported by many scriptures here a little there a little precept upon precept line upon line. only those blinded by God or pride cannot see it.
Chette.
Let's face it, all of us (gappers and non-gappers) are handicapped by our personal bias' and viewpoints. Even between us gappers we have sharp differences of opinion on certain matters.

Try and keep the topic focused, otherwise we are all wasting our time.
Thanks
  #99  
Old 04-19-2009, 06:14 AM
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how true how true
  #100  
Old 04-19-2009, 05:20 PM
Winman Winman is offline
 
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As usual Chette, you go on at length with your personal opinions and teachings of men, without a single scripture to support your view.

Truth is, I don't know what Satan is doing in heaven other than accusing the brethren. But scripture shows that he is still there day and night.

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. [/B]11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. 13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. 15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Now this is Revelations, which I am sure you would agree is future. And Satan who is clearly identified in vs. 9 and his angels are warring against Michael and his angels. Then in verse 10 it says Satan accused the brethren "before our God" day and night.

So I don't care what your personal opinion is, or the opinions of false teachers. The scriptures are very clear. Yes, in Job Satan did say he was walking up and down on the earth, and we also know that Satan approached and tempted Jesus in the wilderness. So Satan does come down to earth. But he also seems to have free access to heaven day and night as vs 10 clearly says.

I am not wresting scripture. Your David Regan argues that "was" in Genesis 1:2 should be interpreted "became", Fredoheaven said the same thing. You said David Regan's did a "great job" of putting together the gap theory.

I hope everyone here sees this. The gap theory is not harmless, it argues that the Bible has mistakes as David Regan and Fredoheaven both said.

In Eze 28 God says "I will cast thee to the ground". That is future Chette. What do you do? You argue that "ground" does not mean the earth. Well tell me, where is this "ground" located? Is that in the 3rd heaven? Is it in space, or our atmosphere? It is you who twists scripture to try and make it accomodate your false theory. Anybody would know that is the earth, even unbelievers.

And in Isa 14, yes, it does say "fallen" and it does say "cut down to the ground". But when you get down to verse 15 it says "Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit". That is future Chette. And that is fulfilled in Revelations.

Rev 9: 1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. 3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

This angel falls unto the earth and has the keys to the bottomless pit. That is the "sides of the pit" in Isa 14:15. And how do we know this is Satan?, from verse Rev 9:11

Rev 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

These names mean "destruction" and "destroyer"

Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; 17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

I personally don't care if you believe this false theory, that is your individual right. But it does bother me that you teach others this falsehood which casts doubt on God's word such as questioning the word "was" in Gen 1:2 which Fredoheaven did, and so does David Regan.

It is one thing to be in error. None of us understands God's Word perfectly, and we all can err. But to be shown your error and still continue in it is very bad. You should consider that.

Last edited by Winman; 04-19-2009 at 05:38 PM.
 

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