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  #81  
Old 04-17-2009, 07:40 PM
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Winman quit arguing.

no one said God didn't create animals. I only said the word create was not used in association with it.

If you want to start another thread for this let's do so or drop it.

if Lucifer was create five days or so before Adam. And Adam didn't need but a few hours to sin on the first day of the next week. so it would seem only once did Lucifer lead worship before he fell which is before the first day of the week after the seventh day of rest. according to most on the day he separated the water from the earth to create dry land.
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  #82  
Old 04-17-2009, 07:43 PM
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Winman,

True, as I stated, scripture doesn't say he did it in one day, I was just pointing out that there would be far less species (types?) of animals then as compared to now.

As for robins and bluebirds, perhaps you'd end up with the all-American eagle for all I know, and for sure I don't imply that there was only one kind of bird. I'll bet there were hundreds, just not thousands and thousands. After all, God didn't spare with the creativity during creation

There used to be a theory among some Christians shortly before Evolution became a popular religion, called fixidity of the species, which meant that the variation we have now is exactly how they were originally created. This lousy science was almost fuel to fire up scientifically-sound observations of variation and partially pave the way for Darwinism.
It still rings out today from the scoffers: "Do you really believe in the fairy tale that Noah could fit all 30 million species onto a boat? get real!"
Of course they are willingly ignorant of many details of the flood, variation, and the actual scriptural account.

Anyways, I just wanted to point out that it wasn't millions of species in the Garden of Eden, nor was it a tiny number either.
And by the way, Adam could probably kick all our butts in just about any contest. He would have been one awesome dude
(No disrespect to Adam intended)
  #83  
Old 04-17-2009, 07:54 PM
Winman Winman is offline
 
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if Lucifer was create five days or so before Adam. And Adam didn't need but a few hours to sin on the first day of the next week. so it would seem only once did Lucifer lead worship before he fell which is before the first day of the week after the seventh day of rest. according to most on the day he separated the water from the earth to create dry land.
Chette, this is where you go wrong. Where in all the Bible does it say that Adam sinned on "the first day of the next week"?? That is nowhere in scripture. Adam may have been sinless for as much as 100 years or more before Satan deceived Eve. There really is no way to know for sure.

We do know that AFTER Adam and Eve were cast out of the garden, that Adam knew Eve and she conceived and bore Cain. Now it is possible that Adam waited many years after they were cast out of the garden to come together, but it is very unlikely. I am sure that Adam and Eve were very healthy and even handsome and beautiful individuals. I am sure that Adam went to Eve very soon after they realized they were naked.

So, it is more likely that Satan did not deceive Eve until they had been in the garden for some time. But we know after they were cast out that Cain and Abel were born, they grew enough for one to till the land and the other to raise flocks, Cain slew Abel, and then Seth was born when Adam and Eve were 130 years old.

Now we do not know how long after Satan rebelled against God that he tempted Eve. He may have done so right away, or he may have waited years. There is no way to know.
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Old 04-18-2009, 03:42 AM
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Originally Posted by chette777 View Post
Winman quit arguing.

no one said God didn't create animals. I only said the word create was not used in association with it.

If you want to start another thread for this let's do so or drop it.

if Lucifer was create five days or so before Adam. And Adam didn't need but a few hours to sin on the first day of the next week. so it would seem only once did Lucifer lead worship before he fell which is before the first day of the week after the seventh day of rest. according to most on the day he separated the water from the earth to create dry land.
I'm not sold on the gap theory, but I am not against it. I see the evidence for and against.

However, Chette, you have made an assumption here.

You are assuming there is no gap between Genesis 2 and Genesis 3, and that on Day 8, along comes Satan to decieve eve, but there is no mention of that.

Adam and Eve could have been in the Garden for almost a hundred years. They could have had fellowship with God (In fact, the Bible says that they did walk in the garden with God in the cool of the evening, and they did this regularly). It also says that Satan was in the garden with God.

Now, I have a theory - Satan was also in the garden of God (Ezekiel 28). Perhaps Satan's iniquity was his desire to have fellowship with man, and have man worship him, and observing God's fellowship with Adam and Eve only served to incite his jealousy. He waited for his chance and struck. And now EVERY SINGLE MAN in the world worships Satan through his deception.

Of course, that theory doesn't sit with the gap ruin-reconstruction theory.

EDIT: - Amen winman. I didn't even read your post until after I posted mine :P

EDIT2: Another thing to consider is that Adam names his wife in Genesis 3, calling her Eve
Gen 3:20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

He called her Eve because she WAS the mother of all living. It's possible that they had children in the Garden, and that Abel and Cain were the first two born OUTSIDE the garden. It could also refer to a motherly figure over God's creation (man was given dominion).

What happened to her children born without sin? Two possibilities - 1) Taken by God or 2) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners.
  #85  
Old 04-18-2009, 06:03 AM
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Default Round 2: Gap Interpretation

Good day to all!! I thought that the topic on Gap was already finished. All in a sudden it has been resumed. I see this topic is so hot... but before that lets pause for a moment to give way for the sponsors and eat some pop corn
  #86  
Old 04-18-2009, 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Fredoheaven View Post
Good day to all!! I thought that the topic on Gap was already finished. All in a sudden it has been resumed. I see this topic is so hot... but before that lets pause for a moment to give way for the sponsors and eat some pop corn
The Gap topic won't go away because there is a fundamental question of truth at issue: Was there a previous world on the face of the earth before the seven days of Genesis, or not...and where does Lucifer fit into the equation?

Ok, let me interject this point:

Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

That is our English language translation from the Hebrew.

Génesis 1:2 Y la tierra estaba desordenada y vacía, y las tinieblas estaban sobre la haz del abismo, y el Espíritu de Dios se movía sobre la haz de las aguas.

This is the SRV translation into the Spanish language (from the Sword Searcher software).

For those of you familiar with the Spanish language you will see that the SRV renders this as feminine and plural tense "the darknesses" (bad English rendering). In other words, it speaks of more than one darkness. How about both physical and spiritual darkness at this same time?

The Hebrew: choshek kho-shek' - the dark; hence (literally) darkness; figuratively, misery, destruction, death, ignorance, sorrow, wickedness:--dark(-ness), night, obscurity.

If, as this passage seems to suggest, that there was both literal darkness and spiritual darkness present, at this time, then that supports the notion that Lucifer had already fallen in time past.
  #87  
Old 04-18-2009, 07:28 AM
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Sensible Understanding of God’s Holy Word
“So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.”
Nehemiah 8:8


In chapter 7 of the book of Nehemiah, the wall was finished, and here followed the listings of the genealogy of God’s people.

Nehemiah 7:1 Now it came to pass, when the wall was built, and I had set up the doors, and the porters and the singers and the Levites were appointed,

Then on chapter 8, the people of God (Israelites) were gathered and Ezra being both the scribe and the priest brought the law and read before them upon the pulpit of wood.

Nehemiah 8:1 And all the people gathered themselves together as one man into the street that was before the water gate; and they spake unto Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of Moses, which the LORD had commanded to Israel.
Nehemiah 8:2 And Ezra the priest brought the law before the congregation both of men and women, and all that could hear with understanding, upon the first day of the seventh month.
Nehemiah 8:3 And he read therein before the street that was before the water gate from the morning until midday, before the men and the women, and those that could understand; and the ears of all the people were attentive unto the book of the law.
Nehemiah 8:4 And Ezra the scribe stood upon a pulpit of wood, which they had made for the purpose; and beside him stood Mattithiah, and Shema, and Anaiah, and Urijah, and Hilkiah, and Maaseiah, on his right hand; and on his left hand, Pedaiah, and Mishael, and Malchiah, and Hashum, and Hashbadana, Zechariah, and Meshullam.


Following down on verses 7-8, was the Preaching Service, so that Jeshua, Bani, and Shrebiah et.al. caused the people to understand the law.

Nehemiah 8:7 Also Jeshua, and Bani, and Sherebiah, Jamin, Akkub, Shabbethai, Hodijah, Maaseiah, Kelita, Azariah, Jozabad, Hanan, Pelaiah, and the Levites, caused the people to understand the law: and the people stood in their place.
Nehemiah 8:8 So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

I believe that, God has given us a pattern to follow in an in-depth study of God’s Holy Word like a miner digging its ore. The following are the rules that may help:
1. The ability to make a distinction.
2. The ability to create a sensible interpretation.
3. The ability to form a spiritual application.

In the case of the words in the book of Genesis like created, made, and formed may show a relation yet do have a distinctions. Below are the distinctions:

1. Created – the Hebrew word used was “Bara”. This is the word expressing creation in its strictest sense. This is to bring something into being out of nothing. This is used primarily in relation to the activity of God. Here it was used in Genesis 1:1, 21, 27; 2:4 indicating the creative acts of God. Interestingly, in the New Testament it was also used in reference to the results of our salvation.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

2. Made – the Hebrew word was “Asah”. This indicates the making of something from the already created materials (Genesis 1:16,25,26; 2:2). Likewise, the New Testament told us that we were made us sit together in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

3. Formed – Hebrew “Yatsar” means to fashioned or to make it beautiful. (Genesis 2:7, 19).

My KJV bible in Genesis 1;1 told me that “In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth”. Perfect is the Word of God that I am not able to see Adam or Eve created by God in the beginning of His word or text while it is true that they were created in God’s image as in verse 27, but the sense here is that they were actually made out of the dust or have been taken out of the ribs. Our KJV with its built-in dictionary safely defined the word created here in relation to mankind as made.

Further, in Genesis 1:5 stated “And God called the light Day and the darkness he called it Night…” There’s no disagreement at all that we live in a 24 hours a day in 7 days a week but I am pretty unsure that the Day and the Night do have an equal hours or 12 hours each. For in some place, their day would extend up to more than 12 hours and vice versa. In verse 5 is the first day where light was diffused. God did not create light because he is the light and when God called the light it made visible or it appeared. Not to be confused the sun gives light to the moon and to the earth after they were made in Day 4. Bro. Chette your 24/7 is a term usually used in a banking institution but nevertheless it makes a sense. Also, I usually prefer to use a biblically sound "Gap Interpretation" than the evolutionistic "Gap Theory".

In addition, it is true that there was a six(6) day to complete the creation starting on v 3 as the first day but there is also no denying about the v 1"In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth." as the original creative act of God. Is there a partial creation here? No. The bible stated clearly as "created" which is in the past tense implying a completed creation of the heaven and earth. Again, it is to be remembered that at the end of verse 1, it ended in a period (.) not a comma (,) to link the word "And" in verse 2.

Now in verse 2, our KJV used the word "was" instead of "became" while it is true that the Hebrew "hayetha" could well be said as the same meaning, the KJV translated it as "was" simply because it was proper to do so which will complete the thought.But the sense, was it "became". Another thing is that the word "without" will be included.

Verses 1 and 2 were said to be linked because of the word "And" but it must be noted that in verse 2 it was only the earth that was without form and void and left "heaven". The sense is that it must mention not only the earth but heaven as well .
is there a gap here? You be the judged.


Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.


Jude 25
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  #88  
Old 04-18-2009, 09:14 AM
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actually how long do you think it would take for man to be tested? 3 minutes? 3 hours? 3 days? when I say the first day of the week I mean the second week. but again it all lays in how long does it take for man to be tested. anyone who thinks that a completely natural man could have been in fellowship with God 100 years before ever disobeying and eating the tree of Knowledge of Good and evil, might want to ask why didn't he eat of the tree of life sometime in that 100years? I mean it wasn't forbidden for him to eat until after his fall.

I say it was (if you don't like first day of the following week) the 8th day. he sinned by noon lunch when his wife made him his first meal. God came a few hours later in the cool of the day found them in sin (but he already knew anyway) and sacrificed an animal to make them clothes by evening sacrifice. the next morning he put them out of the Garden that was east in Eden and sealed of the entrance with a cherubim and a flaming sword. 9 months later they had twins (Cain and Able) and well you know the rest.

I don't need scriptures for that I like you am a sinner and I say it wasn't even a day when the Natural man failed to keep Gods commandment. I haven't gone wrong anywhere. it is quite possible you assume more than I do when it comes to how long it was before Adam sinned. Like I said before we can stretch our Bibles as long as we know God has the final say.

So how long do you think Adam was in the garden before he sinned and where are your Bible verses for it?

Last edited by chette777; 04-18-2009 at 09:22 AM.
  #89  
Old 04-18-2009, 09:28 AM
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when it comes to Pipes and tabrets on a perfect being. all of this fits into the Gap because Lucifer would of had possibly only one time to lead worship before he fell if he was created in the 6 days and tempted Eve. for he would have only been five days maximum older than Adam, who, was as it looks in Gen 1 and 2 was only a few hours older than Eve.

Go to the link to David Regan's site CKG posted http://www.learnthebible.org/search/node/gap his view is the same as mine and he has already stated the gap view and why from the doctrine of the Devil and it all makes sense and is scriptural. most of which I agree and hold too.

we don't have to go to the Hebrew because the same meanings can be found tot he English words employed in the KJV 1611 Bible anyway
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Old 04-18-2009, 01:26 PM
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Fredoheaven

Quote:

Now in verse 2, our KJV used the word "was" instead of "became" while it is true that the Hebrew "hayetha" could well be said as the same meaning, the KJV translated it as "was" simply because it was proper to do so which will complete the thought.But the sense, was it "became". Another thing is that the word "without" will be included.

Verses 1 and 2 were said to be linked because of the word "And" but it must be noted that in verse 2 it was only the earth that was without form and void and left "heaven". The sense is that it must mention not only the earth but heaven as well . is there a gap here? You be the judged.
Fred, what you are doing here is wresting the scriptures. One reason I came to this forum is because I believe God is absolutely perfect, that he promised to preserve his word in perfection, and that the King James Bible is that perfectly preserved Word of God.

If God said the earth "was" void and without form, then that is exactly what God means. When I hear people say things like "well, the verse says "was" but it really means "became"", then I stop listening to that person.

Now, I believe you are a sincere person who loves the Lord. But you need to take God at his word and not insert your own private interpretation.

Quote:
Further, in Genesis 1:5 stated “And God called the light Day and the darkness he called it Night…” There’s no disagreement at all that we live in a 24 hours a day in 7 days a week but I am pretty unsure that the Day and the Night do have an equal hours or 12 hours each. For in some place, their day would extend up to more than 12 hours and vice versa. In verse 5 is the first day where light was diffused. God did not create light because he is the light and when God called the light it made visible or it appeared. Not to be confused the sun gives light to the moon and to the earth after they were made in Day 4. Bro. Chette your 24/7 is a term usually used in a banking institution but nevertheless it makes a sense. Also, I usually prefer to use a biblically sound "Gap Interpretation" than the evolutionistic "Gap Theory".
Well, I don't know of anybody who is saying the day and night had to be exactly 12 hours each, as we know from experience that days are longer in the summer and nights are longer in the winter because of the tilt of the earth.

But the Bible does say light was "formed".

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

And we know that the darkness and light are both alike to God.

Psa 139:12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

So, if God says he formed the light and created the darkness, I believe it. I am not saying I understand it, God's thoughts are much higher than ours and we cannot always understand it, but I believe it.

Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

And Chette, I am not saying you are wrong to believe that Adam sinned on the 8th day. That is completely possible. But it is also possible that Adam and Eve were sinless in the garden for a period of time before they sinned. We have no scriptures to support or refute either view.

And Luke, it is certain that Adam and Eve had other children besides Cain, Abel, and Seth, because Cain was married.

Gen 4:17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.

So Adam and Eve probably had many children who are simply not mentioned in the scriptures. But I don't think Adam and Eve had children in the garden while still sinless, because of Gen 3:22-24 together with Gen 4:1.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

And then only after Adam and his wife were expelled from the garden are we told Adam and Eve came together.

Gen 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

I believe that after Cain and Abel were born, that Adam and Eve had many children, perhaps dozens that are simply not mentioned in the scriptures.
 

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