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  #71  
Old 04-16-2009, 07:25 AM
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well LOL is me.
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  #72  
Old 04-16-2009, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geologist View Post
Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Hebrew: neqeb neh'keb -a bezel (for a gem):--pipe.

Whooo! Stop the presses! This is a fitting for a jewel, not a musical instrument.

There are at least three (3) definitions for a 'bezel' in the English language:

1. A slanting surface or bevel on the edge of a cutting tool, such as a chisel.

2. The upper, faceted portion of a cut gem, above the girdle and below the table.

3. A groove or flange designed to hold a beveled edge, as of a watch crystal or a gem.

Now, since the word "pipes" (bezel) appears in the context of jewels and coverings, this (and the Hebrew meaning) rules out that 'pipes' in Ezekiel 28:13 are music producing.
“Make note also of the words "tabrets" and "pipes" which denote association with music (which is physical and has spirit), and the association with "stones of fire," keeping in mind that "fire" can be a physical and/or spiritual component:”
http://www.kjvbible.org/satan.html
  #73  
Old 04-16-2009, 08:05 AM
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BABB it has to do with semantics as I said in my first post where I mention the word created. the word created is just used for whales and man no where else was the word created used to describe anything between verse 3-31. they were brought forth or made not created. they are different and for a reason.

Isa 48 is good for presenting creation, But the problem is you must divide it into two places one before 24/7 and one after it is established in Gen1:3-5. I have used the same verses to prove my point and it is just as solid as anyone else's. I show the beginning has references to two different times and events by dividing eternity and the 24/7 week, years, centuries, millennium we live in currently. I showed that clearly in my post#62 and #64

I clearly showed that the earth was created before the heaven was made deep and before water was made as found laid out in Prov 8 22-24. so if water was made after the earth (trusting God word in Prov8 to be chronological) then the earth was not covered with water when it was made. there for how did the earth end up standing in and standing out of the waters? simply God cover the earth with water between Gen1:1 and Gen 1:2. I compared scripture with scripture and the conclusion is obvious.

the Problem is you and others are the ones saying the gap theory is unbiblical. but there are support for it Proverbs 8 if taken chronological show the true earth was not covered in water and could not be if the earth was created before water. Now I don't agree with the views of others like geologist. because I don't believe the fossil record is of animals from millions of years ago but from Noah's flood. nor do I agree with Hovind and Morris who claim the firmament was just the atmosphere of clouds surrounding the earth and that no rain fell until Gen chapter 7.

I don't disagree at all with the 6 days God took to set things up for this AGE of Mankind which is currently around 6000 years now in Age (based on 24/7TQ). but for examples God never created grass, trees yielding fruit and herb yielding seeds he said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. Gen1:11, 12 you see he merely said let the earth bring forth which means there could have been plants on the earth before he told the earth to bring it forth. this is where I believe and have some scriptures divided so that show the Eden of God was the original earth and God was still calling it Eden later in the six day when, And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden Gen2:8a. so plant life was already abounding before and had seed in the earth that could be brought forth when the earth was dried (separated from the water).

Gap or no Gap is a non essential doctrine. it has nothing to do with our salvation nor does it lead one into heresy or error. I just brought up an interesting point when he used a set of Scriptures Proverbs 8 22-24 that if are chronological helped prove a gap theory. and I and others believe they are chronological and do support the Gap. It is Winman who has been arguing the loudest.

But I can concede if necessary.

Geologist,

Thanks for taking the post back to where it should be.

The English words have those meanings as well and there are more than just one meaning to Tabrets and Pipes. now the Bible has very limited use of it and we should follow it uses but occasionally in a situation like this we can stretch if we want as long as we agree God has the final say.

Which was what I was leading to concerning Pipes. I don't always put things out as I like to leave room for others too. but pipes for a lamp was my point as Lucifer means Light bearer and a tabret is a upright drum that can hold oil and a wick on a pipe. When he was lit up with all his glorious colored stones he would of reflected a wonderful spectrum of light all around the throne of God, talk about disco balls well this would have put them to shame. If in fact Lucifer was the Anointed Cherub that covered his throne in eternity (past) before his fall he had quite a job lighting up the room for worship. what else who a light bearer in a perfect heaven and no sin do? for God is the light to the saints so why not to the angles as well.

Last edited by chette777; 04-16-2009 at 08:15 AM.
  #74  
Old 04-16-2009, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CKG View Post
“Make note also of the words "tabrets" and "pipes" which denote association with music (which is physical and has spirit), and the association with "stones of fire," keeping in mind that "fire" can be a physical and/or spiritual component:”
http://www.kjvbible.org/satan.html
Thank you for pointing that out. I have corrected the error.
  #75  
Old 04-16-2009, 09:35 AM
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If all I had was the KJV and I looked up all the times pipes was used I would see that with the exception of the passages in Zechariah it always referred to a musical instrument and since it is mentioned in the Ezekiel passage in conjunction with tabrets (always musical in the KJV) I would conclude it was referring to a musical instrument in the Ezekiel passage, that is if the KJV was my final authority (which for me it is).

I find the Gap discussion most interesting. The late David Reagan had some interesting comments on this subject.

http://www.learnthebible.org/search/node/gap
  #76  
Old 04-16-2009, 07:31 PM
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I like David Regan and I never read his view of the Gap. it does line up with much of mine with the fact that scriptures of Satan/Lucifer/devil supports a Gap.

thanks for that link. his view is different and much like mine.

Many Many Mahalao's
  #77  
Old 04-16-2009, 10:37 PM
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If there is not a Gap (not trying to change the subject but clarifying) and Lucifer was created to be the worship leader in heaven. and as some have surmised that Satan was created on or after day one of the 6 days. how many times did Lucifer lead worship (if that was what he was made for) of the Angels before he fell?
  #78  
Old 04-17-2009, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
If there is not a Gap (not trying to change the subject but clarifying) and Lucifer was created to be the worship leader in heaven. and as some have surmised that Satan was created on or after day one of the 6 days. how many times did Lucifer lead worship (if that was what he was made for) of the Angels before he fell?
Chette, Satan or Lucifer could have led worship numerous times. I am not saying that he did lead worship for a fact, but if he did lead worship, it could have been for years.

The Bible clearly teaches that God created the angels.

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

And we know the terms principalities and powers applies to angels.

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

We know Eph 6:12 is speaking of spiritual beings because it says "we wrestle not against flesh and blood". So this verse is clearly speaking of spiritual beings. And I believe "high places" refers to heaven.

We know Adam and Eve were created in the same time frame as Satan.

Mark 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

This brings up the question, what time period does "from the beginning" mean?

We know Lucifer was perfect when he was created.

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Satan must have rebelled against God after the six day creation, because God said every thing he had made (which would include Satan) was "very good" in Gen 1:31

And we see Satan as evil in Gen 3:1

So, Satan must have rebelled sometime during Genesis chapter 2. Gen 2:1 begins at the end of the sixth day, start of the seventh day.

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Again note how God tells us that "created" and "made" mean the very same thing in Gen 2:1!!

Things that are the same, are the same. Sorry, but I had to throw that in.

I personally do not believe Gen chapter 2 to be written chronologically as Gen chapter 1 (first day, second day, third day, etc.) I think Genesis chapter 2 simply supplies details about the creation. For instance, I do not believe Adam named all the animals in one 24 hour day simply because there are too many animals. If God brought an animal once per second to Adam to name, Adam could only name 60 X 60 X 24 which equals 84,600 animals in one single 24 hour day.

That may sound like an incredible number, but there are far more animals in the world today than that number. I got these numbers from a site that tried to roughly estimate the number of different animals on earth.

Quote:
Animals: estimated 3-30 million species
|
|--Invertebrates: 97% of all known species
| `--+--Sponges: 10,000 species
| |--Cnidarians: 8,000-9,000 species
| |--Molluscs: 100,000 species
| |--Platyhelminths: 13,000 species
| |--Nematodes: 20,000+ species
| |--Annelida: 12,000 species
| `--Arthropods
| `--+--Crustaceans: 40,000 species
| |--Insects: 1-30 million+ species
| `--Arachnids: 75,500 species
|
`--Vertebrates: 3% of all known species
`--+--Reptiles: 7,984 species
|--Amphibians: 5,400 species
|--Birds: 9,000-10,000 species
|--Mammals: 4,475-5,000 species
`--Ray-Finned Fishes: 23,500 species
Now these are numbers for the present. But in the past there were far more animals. We know of literally thousands of species that have gone extinct. So I really have a difficult time believeing Adam named all the animals in a single day as some believe. It may have taken him many days, perhaps even months or years.

There is no way to know how long Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden before they sinned. All we know is that after Adam and Eve sinned, and they were cast out of the garden, that Adam knew his wife Eve and she conceived and bare Cain. And then later she also bare Abel. I personally do not believe they were twins, but perhaps they were.

We can be fairly certain that Cain and Abel reached adulthood before Cain slew Abel because they both had occupations or livlihoods. So they were very likely at least in their early twenties when Cain slew Abel.

And we know after this that Adam and Eve bare Seth when Adam was 130 years old. And of course Eve would have been the same age.

So, if you take 130 and subtract at least 20 years for the birth of Cain and Abel, you have about 110 years available.

So Satan could have rebelled anytime after day 7 until roughly 100-110 years later. And he could have been leading service in heaven all this time.

Last edited by Winman; 04-17-2009 at 03:07 PM.
  #79  
Old 04-17-2009, 04:06 PM
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Winman, a little side-topic about your speculation of the vast number of animals that Adam named...
The huge 3-30 million species number may well represent the current figures after 4400 years of micro-evolution, that is to say, variations within a kind.
For example, today there are some ~300 breeds, (species) of horses, yet they are mostly all interferrable (can breed together), indicating that they could easily all have descended from one or possibly two kinds of horse on Noah's ark. This is true of just about every animal that carries the breath of life. This variation within a kind has also greatly inflated today's way of counting differnt animals, when in fact back at the flood there would have been a significantly smaller number.
Now, I agree many species may have gone extinct (as best as anyone actually knows, one can't actually prove extinction, many animals thought to be extinct have since been rediscovered somewhere else); however that number wouldn't be nearly great enough to offset the mushrooming numbers generated through variation.
If one of those 300 breeds of horse went extinct, then you still have a representative of the original kind of animal left.

Point is that Adam had far far less kinds of animals to name that what we have today through variation. Man's system categorizes animals based on species (usually miniscule differences within a kind), but at the point of origin, they were just the basic kinds, with the possibility to adapt through variations pre-programmed into their genetic code.

Also, Adam was only presented "every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air" to be named, leaving out all the aquatic life forms, and possibly things invisible to the naked eye.
This greatly reduces the number of creatures Adam had to name.
But granted, the Bible doesn't say he named them all in one day either...

Food for thought...

The Adam/Cain and Able/Seth time line is sound, and does indeed allow plenty of time for Lucifer to be perfect until iniquity was found in him.
  #80  
Old 04-17-2009, 04:27 PM
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BABB

You have made excellent points, and I had thought of that before. Yes, there are several hundred breeds of dogs, all called by different names, but when you ask a little child what they are, they simply say "doggie!"

So perhaps you are correct and there were only a few thousand different "kinds" as the Bible says.

On the other hand, "birds of a feather flock together". I do not know anything about breeding animals, but perhaps you could breed a robin with a bluebird?? But the birds themselves segregate themselves and only mate with a like species. Whether this was always so, I don't know.

I am sure Adam had amazing abilities and intelligence far superior to anything we know today, but I still have difficulty believeing he could name all the animals in a single 24 hour day, nor do I see the necessity of doing so. Gen 2:19-20 says nothing about time whatsoever. Perhaps Adam did name all the animals in one day, but we have no scripture to verify it either way.

Last edited by Winman; 04-17-2009 at 04:33 PM.
 

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