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  #51  
Old 04-12-2009, 01:29 AM
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Pr 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

If we follow the verses sequentially or chronologically I would have to say you have discovered verses that shows the Beginning (Gen 1:1) and that the earth was before there were were Depths (the deep) in Gen1:2 and before there was water abounding Gen 1:2. So water abounding came after the earth and the depths. So water being found on the earth that was made before water was, so one can deduce that water found in Gen1:2 was a result of some event that took place that left it desolate, empty and covered in water.

Now here dividing the set of verses dispensationally vs22-24 are eternal TQ and verses 25-31 are 24/7TQ. So what God is saying the Lord was from before the beginning and before the current 24/7. All of that from vv22-24 was in eternity past or eternal TQ, and vv25-31 was in this current 24/7TQ

Great job Winman verses that support a Gap between Gen1:1 and 1:2

Last edited by chette777; 04-12-2009 at 01:41 AM.
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  #52  
Old 04-12-2009, 05:32 AM
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Fredoheaven Fredoheaven is offline
 
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Default Well, well, well I realized...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winman View Post
Are you saying that it is impossible for God to create Satan? And not supported in the scriptures?

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The Bible clearly teaches that all things were made by Jesus, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The Bible says Lucifer was perfect in his ways from the day he was created. But Lucifer (Satan) had free will just as you and I do. Lucifer chose to sin of his own free will.

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

What? do you think that Satan is from everlasting as God is?

And saying that someone who disagrees with you is not rightly dividing the word does not make it so. Have you ever considered the possibility that it is you who is in error?
Good day bro. Winman,

I think we all are entitled to our own opinion. You maybe right and I am wrong or vice versa. What i think is not what you think and vice versa but I just think that it is you who think of the answer of your own question.(Magulo....) OK then....

God bless you,

Jude 25
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  #53  
Old 04-12-2009, 03:02 PM
Winman Winman is offline
 
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First, a joyous Easter to all.

Verses to show angels are created beings and have not been with God from everlasting.

Psa 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.

Psa 148:1 Praise ye the LORD. Praise ye the LORD from the heavens: praise him in the heights. 2 Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts. 3 Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light. 4 Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens. 5 Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created.

And Chette, I believe Proverbs 8 supports the six day creation.

Prov 8:29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

This to me could easily mean the third day when God made the dry land to appear. It certainly does not match Gen 1:2 when the whole world was covered with water. Notice it says sea (singular) which perfectly matches Gen 1:9 where God commanded the waters to be gathered together unto one place.

Now compare to Job 38

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

In these verses we see the phrase "foundations of the earth". In Proverbs 8:29 it is strongly implied that this was when God commanded the seas to be gathered together so that dry land appeared. So easily, without contradiction, the angels could have sang together and shouted for joy when God made the dry land appear.

Gen 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

Last edited by Winman; 04-12-2009 at 03:29 PM.
  #54  
Old 04-12-2009, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
In Proverbs 8:29 it is strongly implied that this was when God commanded the seas to be gathered together so that dry land appeared.
I want to correct my own statement in post #53, I should have said this is where God commanded the "waters" (not seas) to be gathered together so that dry land appeared.

This is important because Prov 8:29 only mentions "the sea" which is singular. To me this easily points to the earth when it was entirely covered with water, there would be only one sea in this condition.

The point being, if the phrase "foundations of the earth" applies to when God made the dry land to appear, then in Job 38 when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy would be the 3rd day of creation and would contradict the gap theory.

And further evidence that Proverbs 8:29 is specifically speaking of the 3rd day is the word "sea". This word is not found until Gen 1:10 for the very first time where God calls the gathering together of the waters "Seas". Before this they are simply called "waters".

Last edited by Winman; 04-12-2009 at 03:56 PM.
  #55  
Old 04-12-2009, 04:11 PM
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despite the obvious chronological events of which God reveals in proverbs 8. prayerfully go back through the verses, divide them rightly into the two dispensations and meditate on what God has revealed in his words. it is better to trust God than men and to give up on the teaching of men.

Go back to my post and see the division of Eternity and the 24/7 TQ's

vs 29 is speaking of Gen1:9 I have no doubt and I never said it didn't (go back and reread my post) it is divided as such(24/7TQ) I never said you weren't correct about verse 29

Ps 33 speaks of Gods word speaking into existence the atmosphere and the cosmos with it's stars and has no relevance to the subject at hand. Host is used not just to mean angelic beings but also stars and animals, and a large number of men. the verse actually is speaking of stars not angels (rightly divide brother rightly divide).

You will notice in Psa33 it says Heavens not heaven as in Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. why does it say heaven in Genesis 1:1 and heavens is Genesis 2:1? because there is a Gap

Genesis 2:1 it is not speaking of angels but of all the creations in and of the earth. Host here represnts the dryland and plants, the fish and birds, the animals and insects and man. no where in Genesis chapter one or the recap of it in Genesis 2 ever does it speak of angelic beings being created (clear revealed verse please not assumptions of men).

You are making the word host always to mean angels and it does not (again rightly divide brother rightly divide). As a matter of fact very few times out of the 179 times host is found in the Bible it is refering to angels.

Ge 21:22 And it came to pass at that time, that Abimelech and Phichol the chief captain of his host spake unto Abraham, saying, God [is] with thee in all that thou doest:
here host means an army of Abimelech

Ge 32:2 And when Jacob saw them, he said, This [is] God's host: and he called the name of that place Mahanaim.
Here is God's Angelic army

Ex 14:4 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I [am] the LORD. And they did so.
Here host means not just his army but all the people of Egypt

Nu 2:4 And his host, and those that were numbered of them, [were] threescore and fourteen thousand and six hundred.
Here host is the Men of the camp of Judah when Moses was told to count the men of the tribe of Israel.

De 2:14 And the space in which we came from Kadeshbarnea, until we were come over the brook Zered, [was] thirty and eight years; until all the generation of the men of war were wasted out from among the host, as the LORD sware unto them.
Here host is of all the men of war of Israel.

De 4:19And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, [even] all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.
Here host of heaven is the Multitude of stars and planets not angelic beings.

De 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshiped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;
Here again host represents the stars and plantes in the cosmos

1Ch 12:22 For at [that] time day by day there came to David to help him, until [it was] a great host, like the host of God.
Here host represents the armies of David which are men. Compared to the armies of the Lord which are angelic beings.

Lu 2:13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,
Here host represents not just angels but men (OT Saints) as well

My point is it is about 4 to one (maybe even more) that host represents a great number of men. Host means a large number or quantity of men, stars, or angels. Host never means Angels, stars or men but a great number.

So the word host must be interpreted by the context. in every case where it is used and more often than not it is used to refere to men, secondly in most uses it is stars and planets, and thirdly and least used is for angelic beings.

Last edited by chette777; 04-12-2009 at 04:37 PM.
  #56  
Old 04-12-2009, 04:13 PM
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remember if you have water made before the earth then you have God's preserved chronological order out of order. So when was water made?

Obviously the earth was made before the heaven was made deep and then water was made and it did not originally cover the earth when the earth was first made. if God's preserved chronological order can be trusted.

there was a foundation of the earth when it was originally made before the deep was made and before the water was made. that is the foundation at which they rejoiced when it was first placed in the depth (deep) water came later and it was used to make the earth without form and void or desolate and empty which is and are the only two Bible meanings are in the whole of Scripture.

the foundation you are speaking of is not the original and Proverbs 8 preserved chronological order shows that clearly.

Stop fighting the obvious. You have ridiculed me and poked fun at our view. and God has led you to the verses preserved to show the chronological order of all creation that the Lord was before and you still want to believe in the teaching of men over God's clear revelation. That's ok by me.

Rightly divide Prov 8 22-31 into the correct dispensations of Eternity TQ (pre 24/7 of Gen1:3-5) vv22-24 and the 24/7TQ vv25-31 and you will see Gods Gap between Gen1:1 and 1:2.

Last edited by chette777; 04-12-2009 at 04:40 PM.
  #57  
Old 04-12-2009, 06:08 PM
Winman Winman is offline
 
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Quote:

Rightly divide Prov 8 22-31 into the correct dispensations of Eternity TQ (pre 24/7 of Gen1:3-5) vv22-24 and the 24/7TQ vv25-31 and you will see Gods Gap between Gen1:1 and 1:2.
That's pure nonsense. I see nothing whatsoever in these verses to support your gap theory.

Perhaps you would like to explain in detail how Proverbs 8:22-31 supports your theory. I would love to see you explain that.
  #58  
Old 04-13-2009, 02:39 AM
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come now are you telling me you know not how to divide these scriptures into the right dispensation?

when was water made before or after Gen 1:3?

When was the deep established before or after Gen 1:3?

when was the earth created before or after Ge 1:3?

what is described in Gen 1:3-31 is not the creation of the earth but the making of all the things on the earth.

Gen 1:3 is the creation of the current time measurement of 24/7. Things before this verse are in Eternity things after this verse are n the 24/7TQ current age.

If you can't divide these simple scriptures into 2 dispensations of eternity and the 24/7 current age (which my 10 year old daughter can see and do). what makes you think you can divide any scriptures correctly?

Once divided then compare scripture with scripture you will see.

But then again you don't want to see it and that willingly. 2Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, . . .

Last edited by chette777; 04-13-2009 at 03:04 AM.
  #59  
Old 04-13-2009, 09:51 AM
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BornAgainBibleBeliever514 BornAgainBibleBeliever514 is offline
 
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Doesn't a dispensation refer to a deployment of God's grace towards mankind? The dispensations get cataloged by periods of time in relation to events that affect and involve men, however they are not specifically periods of time. They are defined by changes in God's dealing with mankind.
I've never ever heard of anyone refer to eternity (E.past nor E.present: if such a thing can exist) as a dispensation.
IF there was a gap at all, mankind wasn't there, therefor it can't be called a dispensation.
It makes perfect sense that Satan's fall occurred INSIDE time, hence all the verb tenses used in the scriptures when describing that event.
How could Lucifer/Satan exist in eternity in both his perfect state and his fallen state at the same 'time'?
This concept of eternity past, present and future utterly contradicts what eternity is, turning it into simply a self-serving extended time line to fit events one doesn't want to beleive that occured inside time.
Its far more plausible, and scripturally supported, that Satan came into our time frame from eternity, after the perfect 6-day creation, and beheld mankind, being made a little lower than the angels, and becoming proud in himself, willing that man should worship him instead of God. There's the iniquity that was found in him, inside the garden.
I believe he was perfect in the garden, harbored pride while observing man during the Age of innocence (a real dispenssation) and then rebelled and tried to claim God's position in relation to man for himself.

I propose that there was no dispensation at all until mankind was created.
  #60  
Old 04-13-2009, 03:37 PM
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Excellent points BABB514

And that is what really gets my goat about this gap theory. It simply contradicts so much scripture. For instance, and I think this is very important, the gap theory contradicts 1 John 3:8

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

This gap theory claims that God has already destroyed some plan of Satan to set up his throne on the earth. But the Bible teaches that the very purpose of Jesus coming in the flesh (was manifested) that he might destroy the works of the devil.

So, to me, this is not some harmless difference in opinion.

And Satan and the angels were created. They have not been in all eternity.

Col 1:16 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Now there is no way out of this verse. This says all things in heaven whether they be visible or invisible, whether they be thrones, dominions, or principalities, or powers were created by him, and for him. And we know these terms apply to Satan and the other rebellous angels.

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

And the gap contradicts the Lord when he told the disciples of the great tribulation.

Matt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved:

The gappers claim the whole world was utterly destroyed. This is worse than Noah's flood where 8 persons were left alive, all the animals, and sea-life.

If the gap theory is true, this destruction (the ruin) is even worse than the great tribulation Jesus spoke of, for some will come through the great tribulation alive.

So, this is not a harmless theory, it contradicts God's Word in many points.
 

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