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  #81  
Old 05-04-2009, 04:51 PM
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George George is offline
 
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Default Re: " Factual errors in the Epistle to the Hebrews?"

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Originally Posted by Greektim View Post
"Aren't you making the Greek NT the final authority if you run to the Greek? The reason I say that is because I do go back to the Greek - always (unless I am reading the OT ). I try to be as honest with the text as possible making it my authority. Hopefully that can be respected even from a KJVO perspective."

Greektim,

You said: "I do go back to the Greek" - WHICH "GREEK"? You know as well as I do that there are numerous "GREEK TEXTS" (Nestles {alone} had 25 "Greek Texts" before it was joined with the UBS "Greek Text"); when you speak of "the Greek" - WHICH ONE are you referring to?

If you are referring to the Textus Receptus as your "FINAL AUTHORITY" - WHICH ONE is your favorite?

Is it your "Final Authority" in ALL matters of faith and practice, WITHOUT EXCEPTION?

And what about the "MAJORITY GREEK TEXT"? Do you reject that as your "Final Authority"?
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  #82  
Old 05-04-2009, 05:13 PM
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Greektim Greektim is offline
 
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I use the UBS as my standard, though I don't always agree w/ their reading (i.e. Mark 16:9-20).

I have a TBS TR. It was my grandfather's so it kinda is my favorite TR.

"it" refer to the favorite TR or "The Greek"? I would say no. The GNT does not make up the Bible. You need the HOT as well.

Not at all. I think the MT is good.
  #83  
Old 05-04-2009, 06:42 PM
peopleoftheway peopleoftheway is offline
 
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Greektim

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Do you believe that God was saying through the Apostle Paul, to study the "texts" or to study the Book that he promised in Psalms 12:6,7

Psalms 12:6-7 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

I hold those Preserved words in ONE BOOK the HOLY BIBLE containing 66 Books from holy men of God who spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. Infallible, inerrant preserved in English in the KJB
(not scattered manuscripts or any "dead" language, IN ENGLISH)

Psalms 119:89 For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.

This does not refer to "The Originals" that is just a smokescreen from scholars and theologians who have "NO FINAL AUTHORITY" or any faith in a Sovereign God who is powerful enough to preserve his words on earth.

Isaiah 30:8 Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever:

Isaiah 40:8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.

Isaiah 59:21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

Jeremiah 30:2 Thus speaketh the LORD God of Israel, saying, Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book.

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

John 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


All these verses testify that God Almighty, is Omnipotent enough to preserve his word, without error in at least One Book, they are all his promises to give us today, you and me a Holy Bible that contains all his words without error, is that so hard to grasp? Is God the author of confusion? No, he said he would preserve his words and you know what? I BELIEVE him.
Refering to Psalms 12:6,7 "Purified seven times"
Now I find it no coincidence that the KJB is the 7th Major English Translation

1: Wyclif's Bible (1382),
2: Coverdale's Bible (1535, using Tyndale's New Testamentfrom 1525),
3: Matthew's Bible (1537),
4: The Great Bible (1539),
5: The Geneva Bible (1560),
6: The Bishop's Bible (1568)

And the 7th English Translation purified without error available for every Born again man woman and child to study, read and understand without any need, nor requirement to "Go to the Greek" to know exactly what God said, because, it is right there before our very eyes in the Language we speak, ENGLISH.

The study of manuscripts seems to be the primary occupation of many of scholarly types like yourself and I feel saddened, and I mean that in all Christian sincerity, I feel saddened that you cannot Hold up Any Bible as perfect, that you don't believe God in all his unchangeable wisdom hasn't in these last days left us One Book that contains all his words. Thankfully and Praise the Lord, the Majority of this forum does believe that promise and he has delivered it to us in the King James Bible.
The trend is for those who don't have a final authority to question, ever question those who do and claim that the KJB contains errors, but you know what Brother, IT DOSENT, not one claim of error in the Book by scholars, theologian, correctors has been proven and EVERY claim has been refuted.
The questioning of Gods words, the casting doubt on Gods words all began way back in Genesis 3:1
"Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?"

And since that day satan has questioned, cast doubt on, added to and subtracted from Gods word.
He has his own apostles
2 Corinthians 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

He has his own Prophets
2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

His own messiah
John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

His own trinity
Revelation 13:

His own bride
Revelation 17:

SO......WHY cant he have his own Bibles? Answer:
He does and how he has used them to his advantage, attacking the Godhead, attacking the virgin birth, removing the precious blood of a risen Saviour, removing the words of eternal life, causing confusion among churches and brethren, boy ohh boy the list goes on.
What I am trying to get at here Brother is this, and I am not much older than yourself (34)
WE ARE IN A WAR, plain and simple! spiritual wickedness in high places is ravaging the body of Christ, satan is in his last throws of attack on God, his people and more importantly the validity of HIS WORD. Get your head out of "The Greek" take a sharp sword (One Book stands alone) and the whole Armour of God and stand and fight, or simply go to the back row and cower down with the Greek and pretend Gods word dosent serve to be defended just mocked and changed.

2 Corinthians 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds
2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

1 Timothy 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
  #84  
Old 05-04-2009, 09:41 PM
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tonybones2112 tonybones2112 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greektim View Post
I use the UBS as my standard, though I don't always agree w/ their reading (i.e. Mark 16:9-20).

I have a TBS TR. It was my grandfather's so it kinda is my favorite TR.

"it" refer to the favorite TR or "The Greek"? I would say no. The GNT does not make up the Bible. You need the HOT as well.

Not at all. I think the MT is good.
Tim, how many people on the planet, under heaven, read Koine, or the Classical Greek of Vaticanus? The Biblical Hebrew is not the street Hebrew of Jerusalem or Tel Aviv, according to my friends in IDF. 10,000, 100,000, out of over 6 billion?

Which version of Kittel's do you read? The early ben Chayim or the corrupted ben Asher?

The issue is not HOTS and GNTs for the Christian on the street and in the front lines, the issue is the inspiration of the Scriptures we hold in our hands in our language, not six dead languages.

Grace and peace

Tony
  #85  
Old 05-05-2009, 07:11 AM
Tandi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George View Post
Tandi,

...... WHY didn't you stick with our "agreement"? I did!
George, I had no idea that you were never going to talk to me again on this forum. I thought your “peace” related to that one topic only.

So, according to the gist of the multiple posts of VARIOUS PEOPLE .........

If I say nothing, I "cannot defend my convictions.”

If I say something, I will violate “I suffer not a woman to teach....”

If I see Sabbath in the inspired Greek word Sabbatismos, it is my private interpretation and I should turn a blind eye to the sequence of letters.

If I take the inspired KJV word “rest” to mean 7th day Sabbath rest, I am advocating the bondage of the law by taking a day off once a week for some spiritual and physical R&R. How dare I advocate going down by the river side (Acts 16:13) and thanking the LORD for the beauties and wonders of nature that He created (which is one of the reasons to observe the Sabbath according to Exodus 20.....to acknowledge God as Creator).


So I have a dilemma. To post or not to post, that is the question.

Maybe I will take a time out on the sidelines before I get in too much trouble.

Shalom,

Tandi
  #86  
Old 05-05-2009, 10:16 AM
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Greektim Greektim is offline
 
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I want to respond to this quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tandi
“Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today, and forever” is the refutation of Dispensationalism! For those of you who believe God has different standards for different dispensations, what do you do with this verse??
The way I handle it is by letting the verse explain itself (that and I would have to know what you understand Dispensationalism to mean). This verses says that Jesus is the same not the programs/economies/dispenstaions of the world are the same. It doesn't mention His methods. We know that God changes His mind. So if we compare Scripture with Scripture, we have to assume that Heb. 13:8 is speaking of the person and character of Christ is unchanging.
  #87  
Old 05-05-2009, 10:24 AM
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Tandi,

Since you have made several references to your blog, I went there and I can see right off the bat that you seem to be heavily focused on the Sabbath. The link to Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi's book "Sabbath to Sunday" is particularly telling.

Tandi, like I tried to explain before,
we can't cherry pick the Law like a salad bar, choosing to keep only the parts we like.

Please read the verses below carefully and pray about this...

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. Romans 11:6

"Wherefore the law WAS our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are NO LONGER under a schoolmaster."--Gal. 3:24-25

"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." --Gal 3:10-14
  #88  
Old 05-05-2009, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish View Post
Tandi,

Since you have made several references to your blog, I went there and I can see right off the bat that you seem to be heavily focused on the Sabbath. The link to Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi's book "Sabbath to Sunday" is particularly telling.

Tandi, like I tried to explain before,
we can't cherry pick the Law like a salad bar, choosing to keep only the parts we like.

Please read the verses below carefully and pray about this...

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. Romans 11:6

"Wherefore the law WAS our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are NO LONGER under a schoolmaster."--Gal. 3:24-25

"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." --Gal 3:10-14
Also
Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. (Exodus 31:14-17)

But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou. And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day. (Deuteronomy 5:14-16 )

And Solomon sent to Huram the king of Tyre, saying, As thou didst deal with David my father, and didst send him cedars to build him an house to dwell therein, even so deal with me. Behold, I build an house to the name of the LORD my God, to dedicate it to him, and to burn before him sweet incense, and for the continual shewbread, and for the burnt offerings morning and evening, on the sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the solemn feasts of the LORD our God. This is an ordinance for ever to Israel. (2 Chronicles 2:3-5 )

And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them. Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them. (Ezekiel 20:11-13)
Of course the convenient way to get around this is to say the church has replaced Israel.
  #89  
Old 05-05-2009, 01:14 PM
Bro. Parrish
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That might be convenient, but it's not sound doctrine.
  #90  
Old 05-05-2009, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish View Post
That might be convenient, but it's not sound doctrine.
Pr 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Pr 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Tandi, one of the first messages I responded to of yours had your statement in it about "...keeping Torah...", something over and above just having a nice day in the park with the trees and flowers and chirping birds, on whatever day you have designated as a "sabbath". The seventh day sabbath of the Scriptures is on Jerusalem time, not Eastern Daylight here in the midwest. That was pointed out to you with much labor on our parts but seems to have had no effect on you since doubtlessly we are antinomians in your heart.

One Man kept the Law, we can't. The slack in OT times was taken up by bulls and goats for that time as a figure of things to come. We live in an age now never prophesied, and in denying His grace to us with every sabbath kept and every vain attempt in our flesh to keep the Law, we crucify Him afresh. You also missed the real purpose in your friend and his atheistic attack on the book of Hebrews: This purpose was not to get him to believe anything, it's purpose was to get you to read Hebrews and see just what I have just said, just what brother Parrish has said to you, just what the rest have said.

Grace and peace to you Tandi

Tony
 

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