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  #71  
Old 05-04-2009, 08:09 AM
peopleoftheway peopleoftheway is offline
 
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Posting on this forum is like stepping into a minefield. If words are not phrased a certain way, or paragraph breaks don't come at the right time, the sharks circle and heresy hunting begins in earnest
Where in my reply about you "correcting" by inserting the "greek" word over the "english" word did I label YOU a heretic?
Why would we here in this forum wish to discuss the meaning of the Greek words when we have all the words of God in the Bible preserved in english?
I am not a smart or educated man by any means, I cannot read or write in Greek nor can I read or write in Hebrew but I do KNOW that I have no need to revert to Greek nor Hebrew to understand what God has preserved for me in English. To do so and imply "The Greek" says this or "The Greek" means this would make me a "Bible corrector" and as the Lord allows me to live and breathe in this life I will never "correct" what he has preserved for me IN ENGLISH!
Call me a shark circling indeed if you wish to pursue correcting or questioning the English with "The Greek" for I will vehemently defend Gods preserved word in English against anyone who try's to change or challenge the meaning of "one" word via "The Greek".

Again please show me exactly where I, labeled YOU a Heretic?
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  #72  
Old 05-04-2009, 08:40 AM
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Diligent Diligent is offline
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Originally Posted by Tandi View Post
I would have liked to discuss the word sabbatismos and how it only appears once, while all the other words translated "rest" are a different Greek word, but apparently discussing the inspired Greek text is close to heretical?!
Two things:

If you run to the Greek every time you disagree with what the King James Bible says, you are your own final authority, and there is no way to resolve anything with you.

You say you want a discussion, but you have yet to directly answer the questions I have asked you. A discussion goes two ways.
  #73  
Old 05-04-2009, 12:42 PM
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Hello Brandon,

Quote:
You say you want a discussion, but you have yet to directly answer the questions I have asked you. A discussion goes two ways.
Do you mean these questions?.......

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diligent View Post
.....

Who says our works won't be judged? What are you implying?....

Phrase it how you like. Have you ever built a big boat? No? You mean those commands were for Noah? Aren't you "taking away" from the words? What about God's commandment to Adam to eat from the tree of life? Do you follow that one? For that matter, did Adam follow it all his life? No? You mean you and Adam had to determine which commandments apply when?

Sorry, I thought these were rhetorical questions. I will attempt to answer them when I get a chance.
  #74  
Old 05-04-2009, 12:57 PM
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Default Re: "Factual errors in the Epistle to the Hebrews?"

TANDI > 05-01-2009 > Factual errors in the Epistle to the Hebrews?> Post #65
Quote:
Thank you all for helping me resolve doubts about Hebrews even if I do not have all the answers about seeming discrepancies....yet. I’m still working on it. : )

And, by the way, “there remaineth a keeping of Sabbath to the people of God” according to Hebrews 4:9. God preserved it very clearly in the Greek with the word “sabbatismos.” KJV translators were probably constrained from translating it too literally and chose the English word “rest” but the meaning is preserved in the underlying text.

A topic for another day....if open to discussion.


Shabbat Shalom,
Tandi the Harmonizer

Thank you for a label I can wear, George! Now if only I can find fellow Harmonizers to be in like-minded fellowship with. Any here?

More after Shabbat.....during which time I will carefully and prayerfully study all of these recent posts. Thank you all once again for your input
.”
Tandi,

I guess you haven’t learned NOT to “let sleeping dogs lie”!

We have had our “differences” and “squabbles” in the past – and if you will notice I haven’t replied to your Questions - Questions? – Always “QUESTIONS” (and DOUBTS) since I promised to “let sleeping dogs lie”:

George’s Post: General Chit-Chat > My Avatar > Post #50 > 03-21-2009
Quote:
Aloha sister Tandi,

”You said: "I tried to make peace." As far as this matter is concerned, or any more comments about this matter coming from me, and directed at you - you shall have "peace".

I have stated my position as clearly as I possibly could. I am willing to "let sleeping dogs lie" - no pun intended.”
For over a month I kept my part of our “bargain” - but it is obvious from your “snide remark” and “cheap shot” above (“Thank you for a label I can wear, George!) that you haven’t learned that it’s not wise to kick an old dog – he still can bite!

I have observed your misinformed remarks & comments for over a month now and have not replied because I was willing to let by-gone’s be BY GONE! But obviously you can’t – or, more likely, WON’T!

And so now is the time for me to review some of your numerous Questions - Questions? – Always “QUESTIONS” (and DOUBTS). And you can be sure that I am going to be “direct” – you told brother Tony that: ”I like your direct approach. No problem there.

Your latest foray into “intellectual sophistry” is typical of those people who profess to believe the King James Bible – EXCEPT where it runs contrary to their own opinions!
Quote:
And, by the way, “there remaineth a keeping of Sabbath to the people of God” according to Hebrews 4:9. God preserved it very clearly in the Greek with the word “sabbatismos.” KJV translators were probably constrained from translating it too literally and chose the English word “rest” but the meaning is preserved in the underlying text.
So, if I understand you correctly: The “meaning” is NOT preserved in the King James Bible? Is “the underlying text” your FINAL AUTHORITY in this case? Do you know what it is to have a “double heart”? [Psalm 12:2]; or to be “double minded”? [James 1:8, 4:8] you cannot have it BOTH WAYS – Either the King James Bible is your FINAL AUTHORITY in ALL matters of faith and practices, or it isn’t. And you have proven by your numerous Posts that if the King James Bible “crosses” your private interpretations, you will not hesitate to toss it out for whatever preferred authority agrees with your opinion! James 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways. {This verse applies to women also.}

You have the Christian “liberty” to believe whatever you want to believe – God has given you that choice. But, on the other hand, when you continually keep pushing your private beliefs and convictions in this Forum, someone has to “take you to task” for the misinformation that you are trying to spread and the obtuse and unenlightened private opinions that you continually try to defend.

You have intimated that you are like the Bereans of old who “. . . . . received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so”; but your Posts betray what you really do – which is: you “received the word of theChristianCommentators with all readiness of mind, and searched theChristianCommentators daily, whether those things were so!” Your heavy reliance on the "Christian" commentators to answer your numerous questions {Questions - Questions? – Always “QUESTIONS” (and DOUBTS)} reveals a lack of spiritual discernment on your part.

I shall have more to say about some of your Posts shortly, suffice it to say – by your own testimony (i.e. your own “words” in your Posts) you have demonstrated, for all to see, that your interests lay in the “intellectual pursuit” of “Christian” doctrines, and not in the truth of God's Holy word. And that you are indeed a Gentile JUDAIZER, straining at gnats, and pursuing HEBREW precepts and principles (Ordinances & Laws meant only for Israelites under the Law) and are attempting to persuade us to put ourselves back - under the Law (which you have done).

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:


Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Galatians 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Galatians 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in
Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But
Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Paul said about those who were seeking to put themselves back under the Law: "I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain." [Galatians 4:11]

Questions - Questions? – Always “QUESTIONS” (and DOUBTS) When it comes to this issue - you have nothing to teach us. As a matter of fact, as a woman, you shouldn’t be trying to instruct us - especially about something you are in such serious error over, and know so little about.

1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

1 Timothy 1:7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

More to come - LATER.
  #75  
Old 05-04-2009, 01:24 PM
Tandi
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Brother George,

Why do you assume I was making a snide remark, or that I have ulterior motives for posting here, or that I am trying to put anyone back under the Law??

I may not agree with everyone here, but I am a very simple, straightforward person who loves the KJV. I came here as a friend, not foe, with questions, not doubts.

The spiritual atmosphere is becoming like a grand inquisition. I feel like I am walking on eggshells and I doubt I am the only one who feels this way. Brandon asked me to answer his questions, but if I say more about my beliefs I will be accused of trying to put people under the law! As if I would have any influence with anyone here! You can tell from my blog what my beliefs are. If I am not welcome here, just let me know and I will go away. It is not easy to determine the boundaries of acceptable dialogue.

I do not have huge blocks of time to spend on forums, so I may not answer everyone's point or question or have time to clarify every remark I make.

I wish we could all just believe the best about each other.

Honestly, George, I like the label "Harmonizer" and I am going to continue to use it and recommend it to my Bible Chronologist friend. He associates as a Seventh-Day Baptist but has doctrinal disagreements with that fellowship as well. The Seventh-Day Baptists are a very old denomination. Do you consider them brethren? What about the Waldensians and other groups in past centuries who continued to keep the Sabbath?

I did not come here to promote Sabbath observance. If I should not mention it again, just let me know. I did not enter the fray when the other guy brought up the topic when I saw the reaction. I don't blame him for not returning to the discussion.


Friend, not foe....

Tandi
  #76  
Old 05-04-2009, 02:15 PM
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Default rE: " Factual errors in the Epistle to the Hebrews?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tandi View Post
Brother George,

Why do you assume I was making a snide remark, or that I have ulterior motives for posting here, or that I am trying to put anyone back under the Law??

I may not agree with everyone here, but I am a very simple, straightforward person who loves the KJV. I came here as a friend, not foe, with questions, not doubts.

The spiritual atmosphere is becoming like a grand inquisition. I feel like I am walking on eggshells and I doubt I am the only one who feels this way. Brandon asked me to answer his questions, but if I say more about my beliefs I will be accused of trying to put people under the law! As if I would have any influence with anyone here! You can tell from my blog what my beliefs are. If I am not welcome here, just let me know and I will go away. It is not easy to determine the boundaries of acceptable dialogue.

I do not have huge blocks of time to spend on forums, so I may not answer everyone's point or question or have time to clarify every remark I make.

I wish we could all just believe the best about each other.

Honestly, George, I like the label "Harmonizer" and I am going to continue to use it and recommend it to my Bible Chronologist friend. He associates as a Seventh-Day Baptist but has doctrinal disagreements with that fellowship as well. The Seventh-Day Baptists are a very old denomination. Do you consider them brethren? What about the Waldensians and other groups in past centuries who continued to keep the Sabbath?

I did not come here to promote Sabbath observance. If I should not mention it again, just let me know. I did not enter the fray when the other guy brought up the topic when I saw the reaction. I don't blame him for not returning to the discussion.


Friend, not foe....

Tandi
Tandi,

1. WHY did you mention my name?

2. WHY didn't you stick with our "agreement"? I did!

3. WHY, when people call you down on something you say, do you become a "victim" and the "oppressed" one (the refuge of one who cannot answer a legitimate criticism)? No one is "picking on you", but if you are in error - we are going to point out where you are wrong.

4. WHY do you avoid answering the questions or the points that are made against your opinions and seek refuge in: "It is not easy to determine the boundaries of acceptable dialogue." Your refusal to deal with our criticisms of your "private interpretations" demonstrates that you cannot defend your "convictions".

I didn't say that you were: "trying to put anyone back under the Law" I clearly said that you: "are attempting to persuade us to put ourselves back - under the Law (which you have done)."

You have this "knack" of dramatizing, twisting, or expanding on the words that are written (by others) and turning them into something other than what was said!

If you want to continue to call yourself "Tandi the Harmonizer" - have at it; be my guest; it's no skin off of my nose! The ONLY command in the entire Bible in regards to study says: "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, RIGHTLY DIVIDING the word of truth." [2 Timothy 2:15] If you insist on HARMONIZING the Holy Scriptures it's fine with me, I'm not your husband nor do I have any authority over you whatsoever. But on the other hand, God has COMMANDED us to "RIGHTLY DIVIDE" His Holy word - NOT HARMONIZE it.

What are you going to say to God Almighty when you are presented with this verse (and your refusal to OBEY it) because you "preferred" to HARMONIZE the word of truth rather than OBEY God's command to "RIGHTLY DIVIDE" it? Many Christians are going to be "ashamed" at the Judgment Seat of Christ because they failed to obey God's Commandment in regards to the study of His Holy word. {Now there's ONE COMMANDMENT that you should be concerned with.}

I cannot judge who in the Seventh-Day Baptists, Waldensians, or any "other groups in past centuries who continued to keep the Sabbath" was saved, and who was NOT saved (anymore than I can determine who in the Baptist, Evangelical, or Pentacostal (Charasmatic) churches (that DON'T "observe" the Sabbath) are saved and who is NOT!). I have no way of knowing these things since only God knows the hearts of men (and women). I do not concern myself with these matters, because I have no way of determining the answer.

Stay or leave - it's up to you; but be assured of one thing, since you brought my name back up (after I was circumspect in avoiding a confrontation with you) I am going to comment on many of your comments that are clearly in error and unscriptural!

Last edited by George; 05-04-2009 at 02:21 PM.
  #77  
Old 05-04-2009, 03:02 PM
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Greektim Greektim is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Diligent View Post
Two things:

If you run to the Greek every time you disagree with what the King James Bible says, you are your own final authority, and there is no way to resolve anything with you.

You say you want a discussion, but you have yet to directly answer the questions I have asked you. A discussion goes two ways.
Aren't you making the Greek NT the final authority if you run to the Greek? The reason I say that is because I do go back to the Greek - always (unless I am reading the OT ). I try to be as honest with the text as possible making it my authority. Hopefully that can be respected even from a KJVO perspective.
  #78  
Old 05-04-2009, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Greektim View Post
Aren't you making the Greek NT the final authority if you run to the Greek? The reason I say that is because I do go back to the Greek - always (unless I am reading the OT ). I try to be as honest with the text as possible making it my authority. Hopefully that can be respected even from a KJVO perspective.
No, she is not making the Greek NT the final authority. If she were, she would be using that and not selectively going to "The Greek" when she wants to return us to the bondage of the Sabbath, and the KJV just doesn't quite "cut it" to that end.

If the "The Greek" is your authority, use that. Be my guest. I'll even avoid the whole "which Greek" argument. But if you pick and choose between the KJV and "The Greek" to find whatever supports your argument best, then you are your own final authority, just as someone who studies out of the Amplified (multiple choice) Bible and picks whichever word suits their fancy at that particular moment.
  #79  
Old 05-04-2009, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Diligent View Post
No, she is not making the Greek NT the final authority. If she were, she would be using that and not selectively going to "The Greek" when she wants to return us to the bondage of the Sabbath, and the KJV just doesn't quite "cut it" to that end.

If the "The Greek" is your authority, use that. Be my guest. I'll even avoid the whole "which Greek" argument. But if you pick and choose between the KJV and "The Greek" to find whatever supports your argument best, then you are your own final authority, just as someone who studies out of the Amplified (multiple choice) Bible and picks whichever word suits their fancy at that particular moment.
Curious, but why refer to the GNT as "The Greek" or "which Greek" as if to say it does not exist? Or are you indicating that it is something you do not agree with - even the TR GNT?
  #80  
Old 05-04-2009, 04:25 PM
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Fredoheaven Fredoheaven is offline
 
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Default Just to Clarify a Matter

Good day Tandi:

I would like to clarify my matter and I know you missed my point. First, I don't seem to have any problem with the EBTS because afterall they point to the KJV as their official and only translation of the Holy Scriptures used by their Church and all of its ministries. Clearly the textual line of the Hebrew and Greek manuscripts supports the scriptural teaching of biblical preservation. . I'm in no way a Scholar/Expert in the Hebrew and Greek and to say least English but herein is my point

The phrase "this day". When I said "God did not preserved his words in the Greek but in English", I have to clarify what it meant and I said,"The New Testament was written in Greek language and were preserved to us this day in English. see# 67. Today, we have an English version of the Bible(KJV) translated and preserved to us. By the way, do you have for now in hand a complete Bible in Hebrew and Greek? I would like to have one if you can give me free of charge but frankly and literally, I cannot used them in my study. And so, I have to stick in the old KJV. In your other post, you said you love the KJV and i quote (post #75)

"I may not agree with everyone here, but I am a very simple, straightforward person who loves the KJV."

Truly if you love the KJV, then please do not replaced its "word". You should have let the text as it is and if you have some doubts or question about it then there is really no a problem. Friends and brethren here in this Forum will be very glad to be of service alway. You may also comment on it as well, as everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion or interpretation. Here is God's Word said as compared to what you said.

KJV said:

Hebrews 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

You said:

And, by the way, “there remaineth a keeping of Sabbath to the people of God”

Hope you won't misunderstand me...


For God's Glory...

Last edited by Fredoheaven; 05-04-2009 at 04:30 PM.
 

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