Bible Versions Questions and discussion about the Bible version issue.

 
 
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Old 12-01-2008, 08:12 PM
Bill Bill is offline
 
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Default "Alexandrian" Translations of John 2:1-10.

The first 10 verses of John, chapter two, record attendance at a wedding feast by Jesus and his mother, Mary. During the wedding Mary made an observation to Jesus that they were out of wine. Jesus's response was to declare a separation from Mary, addressing her as "woman," and saying that "Mine hour has not yet come." The NIV changes Jesus' statement to be a separation from the situation rather than Mary, which makes no sense because Jesus went on to miraculously make wine for the party. The RSV changes Jesus' statement to be a separation of Mary from Jesus. The NKJV, ESV, and NASB also change Jesus' staterment to be a separation from the shortage of wine situation." The suggestion by Mary, pointing out a need, seems to me to be the least assertive form of control that can be used, but Jesus apparently recognized the communication as a means of control and rejected it. His referral to Mary as "woman" shows that he considered the issue as between an man and a woman and not as a child and mother, showing that Jesus isn't the eternal mama's boy that the Roman Catholic Church represents him as; so completely under the control of his mother's suggestion that prayers can be addressed to Mary. The KJV also contradicts the Gnostic idea of a female goddess ruling over Jehovah. This seems to me to be a significant error introduced by using Alexandrian manuscripts and/or dynamic equivalence. Jesus' statement that his hour had not yet come appears to be a reference to the time of his execution, as this reference is made in other places in the Bible. While Jesus was on the cross he provided for his mother's welfare by assigning John as a son to Mary, which I think shows that when he declared a separation from Mary, it was not to indicate a rejection of responsibility for her welfare. I would appreciate any opinions on this subject.
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Old 12-14-2008, 05:24 AM
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PB1789 PB1789 is offline
 
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Hello Bill. Good Post. It is strange how many "hoops" that R.C.ism jumps through in order to place Mary on a higher pedestal than what Scripture teaches.

I sometimes watch the Roman Catholic TV channel (which is part of the Basic Cable Package up here.) and they have some smart men on there sometimes, who have some good things to say ( such as an elderly gent with a gray beard and glasses/wears the Grey robe)... BUT, they go along with this promotion/elevation of Mary that is a made-up thing.

Have they never read such verses as Matthew 12:46-50 ?

Or these; Luke 11:27,28 ?

Last edited by PB1789; 12-14-2008 at 05:36 AM.
  #3  
Old 12-17-2008, 11:00 AM
Tmonk Tmonk is offline
 
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Textus Recepticus - λεγει αυτη ο ιησους τι εμοι και σοι γυναι ουπω ηκει η ωρα μου

Westcott & Hort - λεγει αυτη ο ιησους τι εμοι και σοι γυναιουπω ηκει η ωρα μου

εμοι = I or me , first person pronoun
και = conjective , and, also , therefore...
σοι = second person singular, thou or you

Lit - me and you or I and you

This one is gonna get me banned for sure.
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Old 12-19-2008, 06:20 PM
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Thanks for the replies. To Tmonk: It appears to me from the greek you wrote that the Westcott and Hort has the same greek wording as the Textus Receptus text? Does that mean that the difference in wording is the result of translator judgement? Would you get a meaning other than the KJV's that would be consistent with the fact that Jesus did not separate himself from the "lack of wine" predicament but went on to make wine?
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Old 12-20-2008, 05:22 AM
Tmonk Tmonk is offline
 
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Yes, I see it as a translator judgment. Which is where the majority of any differences in versions come from.

I see it as Christ not wanting to get involved but Mary getting Him to do it anyhow. How could she do this? She is His mother and one must "Honor thy Mother and Father". Christ never at any time broke one of the 10 commandments, part of Him being sin free and all.

According to John 2:11 this was His first sign. And Christ might have considered it rude to grab the spotlight from the bride and groom. I cant see a separation from Mary being made at this time.
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Old 12-20-2008, 07:24 AM
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If you stick with the KJB, you won't get off into this "ever learning" (which includes speculations, private judgments and heresies).
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Old 12-21-2008, 06:20 AM
Tmonk Tmonk is offline
 
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So come out and say it.
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Old 12-22-2008, 07:27 PM
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Regarding Jesus's Hounour to his mother: Jesus adressed Mary as "woman" which showed that the relationship was now between a man and a woman and the methods of honouring would be compatible with an independent adult. The observation that this was Jesus' first miracle is significant because it was probably the time of transition from dependent to adult. I think this transition may have been harder for Jesus than for most of us because Mary was extremely righteous and the tendency to delay adult responsibilities would be at it's maximum, but Jesus leads us in facing temptation by taking on the most severe temptations himself.
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Old 12-25-2008, 05:46 AM
Tmonk Tmonk is offline
 
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You make a good point Bill. In order to determine what Christ is separating Himself from you must determine to usage and object of "thee". Is it a pronoun or a conjunctive in this case. What is the object, Mary or the preceding verses situation.
 

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