[Luke]

I would hesitate to call them pagans, as it implies that they were willfully rejecting the counsel of God. It would appear that they were more ignorant (remembering that Calvin did not have the infallible word of God, nor did Luther, only portions of it), than wilfully practising pagan traditions.

Alexander Hislop does outline the pagan origins of Rome in his book "The Two Babylons". Unfortunately today, those who still hold to these errors (infant baptism, baptismal regeneration, nicolatian doctrines (difference between laity and clergy), sacraments, transubstantiation etc), are pagan, as there is plenty of evidence against it, most of all the written word of God.

[stephanos]

Originally Posted by Forrest

Hello Brother George. I agree with the sound Biblical teaching in your posts. So, I guess we are of the "same mind" and that puts me in the corner! I hope you are planning to put this entire teaching on your website so I can direct others to it.

Yeah, I've been thinking the same thing. It would be nice to be able to link to a single html version of all this.

Also, George, thank you so much for taking the time to do all of this. I get dizzy thinking about doing this sort of work myself.

Peace and Love,
Stephen

[stephanos]

Originally Posted by Gord

To understand the freedom you have to day, I at least am curious as to how those ex-latin-using baby sprinkling pagans" (the folks who had the courage to defy the roman catholic church) as you call them, came to begin to understand then, under the "rule of the roman church" the glen of light and truth that today afford us the freedom in Christ we can now understand and enjoy. I prefer to be curious to understand, rather then pigeon holing a group of people at the faults of others.

The operative part of my statement was "ex". I don't think the founders of the Anabaptists were pagans, but they were for the most part "ex" Catholic pagans.

To answer your question, a lot of them could read Hebrew and Greek (like the edition put out by Erasmus, another reformation era Catholic). Granted, a lot of them did read the Latin texts, but those texts were (at that point in time) pretty corrupt (I think the Old Latin texts, which we now have only fragments of, were more in line with the TR). So, these reformers were able to piece together a more solid doctrinal position which led to their speration.

EDIT: I just had another look at my post and it does look like I was saying that they still are pagans. That wasn't what I was trying to say. Sorry for the confusion.

For Jesus' sake,
Stephen

[stephanos]

Originally Posted by Luke

I would hesitate to call them pagans, as it implies that they were willfully rejecting the counsel of God. It would appear that they were more ignorant (remembering that Calvin did not have the infallible word of God, nor did Luther, only portions of it), than wilfully practising pagan traditions.

Alexander Hislop does outline the pagan origins of Rome in his book "The Two Babylons". Unfortunately today, those who still hold to these errors (infant baptism, baptismal regeneration, nicolatian doctrines (difference between laity and clergy), sacraments, transubstantiation etc), are pagan, as there is plenty of evidence against it, most of all the written word of God.

I'm pretty sure Luther had it. I think his german translation includes all 66 books.

Peace and Love,
Stephen

[chette777]

I don't agree with Arminianism(SP?) or Calvinism. But my Calvinist friends call me a Arminian and my Arminian friends call me a Calvinist.

I agree with George on all the issues he has brought out on Calvinism. why is it we are labeled by these groups when we differ from their thought.

What are we then? OH Yeah BIBLE BELIEVERS! and proud of it!

[Forrest]

Brother George, you may have (probably) already addressed this, but I was wondering about the verse:

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

The argument that before a person can even believe, "regeneration" performed by God must take place. If you addressed this already, which post is it? If not, would you expound?

[George]

Originally Posted by Forrest

"Brother George, you may have (probably) already addressed this, but I was wondering about the verse:

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

The argument that before a person can even believe, "regeneration" performed by God must take place. If you addressed this already, which post is it? If not, would you expound?"

Aloha brother Forrest,

I believe I addressed the matter in my second Post (#3) – here is the Link:
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...59&postcount=3

The following excerpt comes from Post #3 (near the beginning):

According to the Bible - the state of all men and women born into this world is best described as being “SINFUL” – NOT “Totally Depraved”. All men and women are “Sinners” – NOT “Totally Depraved”. The Scriptures describe all men and women {without God} as “the NATURAL man” – NOT the “Totally Depraved” man [1Corinthians 2:14]. By describing all men & women as being“Totally Depraved” the Calvinists have changed the parameters (words) of the issue – making a man incapable of even BELIEVING unless he is “regenerated” FIRST! “God grants that we believe (Phil. 1:29)”; and “God appoints people to believe” (Acts 13:48); or as the “Center for Reformed Theology and Apologetics” puts it: “The unregenerate (unsaved) man is dead in his sins (Romans 5:12). Without the power of the Holy Spirit, the natural man is blind and deaf to the message of the gospel (Mark 4:11f). This is why Total Depravity has also been called "Total Inability”. The man without knowledge of God will never come to this knowledge without God's making him alive through Christ (Ephesians 2:1-5).” But, “what saith the Scriptures”? [Ephesians 1:13In whom ye also trusted, AFTER that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also AFTER that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,]

And herein is the first major difference between most Calvinists and myself. In their concern for men having absolutely NOTHING to do with EARNING their salvation, the Calvinist (through the doctrine of “TOTAL DEPRAVITY”) make it impossible for a man (or woman) to even BELIEVE – unless they are “regenerated” FIRST!

Now, I believe that there is NOTHING we can DO to EARN God’s Salvation; but there is SOMETHING that we MUST DO to RECEIVE God’s Salvation – WE MUST FIRST BELIEVE! THE QUESTION IS: . . .Sirs, WHAT MUST I DO to be saved? THE BIBLICAL ANSWER: And they said, BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. [Acts 16:30-31]

There is a huge difference between sinful men (and women) being unable (in the flesh) to DO anything to EARN their Salvation, and men and women first “BELIEVING” the Gospel (with their heart) in order to RECEIVE God’s Free Gift of Eternal Salvation!

Now the Calvinists (in their concern for man having NOTHING to do with his Salvation) cannot accept that we BELIEVE before we are “regenerated” (for, according to Calvinism, that would be a WORK on the part of man, and since Salvation is:“Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;” [Titus 3:5] then (according to the Calvinists) we must be “regenerated” before we can believe – since BELIEVING (according to Calvinists) is a WORK. But BELIEF is solely an operation and function of the HEART – NOT the flesh! “WORKS of righteousness” are done in the FLESH. The heart is our “faculty” where our will resides; the flesh is our “substance” that produces WORKS!

The following excerpt comes from my Post #3 (near the end):

The “WORK” of God (in this age) is to convince people (through His word) to “BELIEVE” the Gospel. The purpose of the Gospel is to bring people to the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation. IF God “gives” us our “BELIEF”, WHY does He have to WORK at it? If our “BELIEF” is a “gift” from God - where then is there any “WORK” on God’s part? According to the Scriptures, God is now working at getting people to “believe on him whom he hath sent.” [Acts 13:41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.] If our “BELIEF” is a “gift” from God, there would be no “WORK” involved at all (on God’s part). Why would God try to “convince” someone of the very same thing (belief) that He is going to “give” them anyway?

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

We obtained like precious "faith" (God's precious "gift" to us) by "believing" in our hearts, “after” we heard the Gospel of the Grace of God.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, AFTER that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also AFTER that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Please notice the “Chronological Order” that leads up to our Salvation: We TRUSTED, AFTER we HEARD the word of TRUTH (The Gospel). We were “sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise”, AFTER WE BELIEVED– NOT “BEFORE”! [Ephesians 1:13]:

Although faith is a “gift” from God (based on the Lord Jesus Christ’s finished WORK on Calvary), our “belief” in the Gospel of Jesus Christ is NOT a “gift” from God, but is instead an operation and function of our heart – God does NOT “BELIEVE” for us, or “FORCE” us to “believe” in Him!

From the very beginning of the creation of Adam, and up to the present time, God has wanted people to "believe" Him and obey Him. There have been different Dispensations; and God has required different things of people under the different "Covenants"; but the one constant thread running throughout all of the ages (Dispensations), and under all of the "Covenants" is God's consistent requirement that we "Believe" Him (His Holy words). He does not FORCE us, or MAKE us "believe" Him, but He "REQUIRES" it!

God has required of everyone under every Covenant and in every "age" that they "BELIEVE" His words {Oral or Written} and OBEY them. We are very fortunate that under the "New Covenant” - All we have to DO to get saved is to "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, . . . ." {When WE "BELIEVE" in Christ's death, burial, and resurrection and "RECEIVE" Him as our personal Saviour, we have done (obeyed) all that God has required of us (under the "New" Covenant) to get saved.} God never said that we are too “DEPRAVED” to believe Him – He has said that there is nothing we can DO (“WORKS”) to save ourselves {Romans 1:16; Romans 3:19-28; Galatians 2:16}. Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

To answer your question – I believe that Ephesians 1:13 settles the matter of the Chronological order of Salvation (in this age and under the New Covenant) for ever. According to the Scriptures presented - "Regeneration" (the "new birth") takes place AFTER we have BELIEVED - NOT BEFORE! {After all, the whole purpose of the Gospel is to get us to BELIEVE; why would God emphasize the Gospel and our BELIEVING it, IF He is only going to honor the promises within it, to those He "Regenerates" first? Wouldn't that be disingenuous?}
[Ephesians 1:13In whom ye also trusted, AFTER that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also AFTER that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,]

Calvinists have confused the “Chronological Order of Salvation, and in doing, so they have constructed “a system of biblical interpretation” and “theological formulations” based upon a FALSE PREMISE (Premises), resulting in a “doctrine” (doctrines) that is not only FALSE, but also extremely pernicious (clearly demonstrated by some of the Calvinists’ responses to my Posts on this Forum – adversarial, belligerent, arrogant, epithetical (name calling), insulting, and (most importantly) without any “SUBSTANCE”!).

Once someone truly BELIEVES in “something”, it is extremely difficult to change one’s heart (NOT mind) on the matter. I do not profess to understand the workings of the heart; I only know (from reading and studying the Holy Scriptures and personal observation) that true, genuine BELIEF (no matter in WHAT) is a sole function of the heart, and that when it takes place, there is a “Commitment” to that “BELIEF” (that takes place within the heart) that makes it extremely difficult (often impossible without the Holy Spirit convicting and convincing) to CHANGE! {Try to witness to Catholics, Mormons, JW’s, Seventh Day Adventists, Cambellites, Pentecostals, Baptist Briders, Hindus, Buddhists, Mohammedans (Islamists), Humanists, etc. and you will know what I mean. }

Well, the same holds true for Calvinists. A person who has accepted the doctrines of Calvinism is a “Calvinist”. A Calvinist accepts the “teachings” of Calvinism and believes (is convinced) in his/her heart that Calvinism is the ONE TRUE WAY (the ONLY WAY). Their faith in Calvinism mirrors our faith in God’s Holy word, the only problem being is, that they are placing their faith in a man and his writings – rather than Almighty God and His Holy word. {witness PB1789’s “reverence” for the writings of John Calvin – i.e. “FEAST”. }

Calvinists USE the Holy Bible (or corrupt bibles), as do ALL CULTS, to establish their pernicious doctrine, and IGNORE any and all verses of Scripture that are clearly contrary to what they believe. They think that, because they emphasize the “Sovereignty” of God, they can’t possibly be wrong. But the problem is, they, like their “Neo Orthodox” brethren (who supposedly emphasize the Person and Majesty of the Lord Jesus Christ), IGNORE THE TRUTH (i.e. THE SCRIPTURE – John 17:17) and in doing so, they construct “a system of biblical interpretation” and “theological formulations” that lead to erroneous “biblical interpretations” (leaven); dead orthodoxy; and eventually APOSTASY! {The unassailable historical record of Calvinism – in whatever churches it has been received and accepted. In other words - Calvinism = A DEAD END!}

Whenever Christians (or a church) abandon the Holy word of God and substitute “the tradition of men” in its place [Colossians 2:8], they are on the road to APOSTASY. It may take 40 years; it may take 100 years; it may take 200 years or more, but “leaven”, just a “little leaven”, ALWAYS “leavens the whole lump” (without exception). [1Corinthians 5:6; Galatians 5:9] I have personally witnessed on several occasions (within my lifetime) the destructive results of just " little leaven" in some of the churches I have attended.

[Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.]

[1 Corinthians 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
Galatians 5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.]

[stephanos]

Originally Posted by chette777

I don't agree with Arminianism(SP?) or Calvinism. But my Calvinist friends call me a Arminian and my Arminian friends call me a Calvinist.

I agree with George on all the issues he has brought out on Calvinism. why is it we are labeled by these groups when we differ from their thought.

What are we then? OH Yeah BIBLE BELIEVERS! and proud of it!

Yeah, my Mennonite friends are dictionary definition Arminians, and they still think that I'm a Calvinist, even after I told them I think it's the most destable heresy in the Church today. Some folks just can't get past pidgeon holing folks.

For Jesus' sake,
Stephen

[George]

Aloha all,

The following is the sixth Post on the Calvinistic doctrines of T.U.L.I.P. Again, I want to apologize for the delay, but these studies have taken longer than I anticipated (they always do ).

T.U.L.I.P.{the famous acronym associated with Calvinistic beliefs}

P = “Perseverance of the Saints”

Calvinists state:
“You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return.”

To begin with, the words “persevere” and “persevered” cannot be found in the Holy Bible. The word “perseverance” shows up only once in the Bible [Ephesians 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;] and has absolutely nothing to do with the Calvinist doctrine of the so-called “Perseverance of the Saints”.

WHY do all of the main tenets (premises) of Calvinism either misuse Biblical words (take them out of context or misapply them) or use words, to bolster their doctrines, which cannot be found in the Holy Bible? [1 Peter 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.]

Calvinists state:
“You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure.

Although the preceding statement is true (overall), the way it has been stated leaves a lot to be desired - because it is cleverly worded to emphasize Calvinistic doctrine, and avoids mentioning (leaves out) many important Scriptures applicable to the subject.

Let us carefully examine the statement (bit by bit): “You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected,” Is that the ONLY REASON why we “cannot lose your (our) salvation”? I trow not! I am always suspicious of religious people who only use those Scriptures that reinforce there pet doctrines and leave out the rest of the council of God on an issue.

We cannot lose our Salvation because the Holy Scriptures have PROMISED us that if we BELIEVE on/in His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, we will have (receive - possess) ETERNAL LIFE and NEVER PERISH!

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

The Calvinists conveniently LEFT OUT part of the “equation” {BELIEVE} – didn’t they? WHY? Why do Christians do that? Why not give us the “whole council of God”, instead of only those parts that support your “system of biblical interpretation” and “theological formulations”?

And please take note: Calvinists have a strong “personal preference” for the word “ELECT” and at the same time, seem to have an aversion to the word “BELIEVE”.

FACT: In the entire Bible there are a total of 27 verses with the words “elect”, “elected”, and “election” in them. Of those 27 verses with those words in them – 1 verse is in reference to the “elect” angels; 2 verses are in reference to the Lord Jesus Christ; 14 verses are in reference to the Jews (Hebrews); and 10 verses are in reference to Christians. {Check it out}.

FACT: There are approximately 302 verses with the words “believe”, “believeth”, “believed”, “believing”, and “belief” in them (better than 10 to 1 with “elect”, etc., and better than 30 to 1 when applied only to Christians). IF the Scriptures speak 10 times more (or 30 times more) about “believing”, etc., than “elect”, “elected”, and “election”, – WHY do some Christians keep on emphasizing “election”, etc., while practically ignoring “BELIEVING”? Hmmm? {It reminds me of some of our Pentecostal brethren (“Charismatics”) always over emphasizing “speaking in tongues” - after the Apostle Paul’s admonition: “Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.” [1 Corinthians 14:19] Our Calvinist brethren over emphasis on “elect”, “elected”, and “election”, isn’t quite that bad - but its’ bad enough, and out of order (i.e. balance).}

Is the sole reason why “You cannot lose your salvation” -the reason that Calvinists supply: “Because the Father has elected,” or is there more to it? I am not going to go over “election” again, except to say that I am highly suspicious of people (especially “religious” people) when they USE the Bible to support a “pet” doctrine, and only emphasize those verses in support of their beliefs, and conveniently fail to supply “the rest of the story” (the whole council of God).

According to the Holy Scriptures “election” is part of the reason we cannot lose our salvation. But the other part that is crucial to our not losing it, and the part that God emphasizes far more than “election”, is His PROMISES to us – that is - IF we BELIEVE!

[Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?]

[Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.]

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

1 John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

There’s more (a whole lot more), but why go on? The written "PROMISES" of God are sure, and they give us hope. The statement: “You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected” is only PART of the Scriptural testimony - the PART that Calvinists have chosen to emphasize to strengthen their doctrine, to the detriment of the testimony of the rest of the Scriptures dealing with the subject! Remember: “A text without a “context” is a PRETEXT”!

Calvinists state:
“You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure.

When Calvinists state: “The Son has redeemed”, they will get no argument from me or any other genuine Bible believer [Galatians 3:13]. Our salvation is based SOLELY ON: The Lord Jesus Christ’s life; His death; His shed blood; and His resurrection. Its’ ALL based on GOD’S GRACE - NOT OF WORKS! The ONLY thing that we must DO to receive this wonderful gift from God is – we must BELIEVE! [Acts 16:31]

The “simplicity” that is in Christ [2 Corinthians 11:3] is such, that even a child can receive it. Woe to the man (or men) that are guilty of “corrupting” that “simplicity”. [2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.]

Calvinists state:
“You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure.

I have looked throughout the Scriptures for the phrase “the Holy Spirit has applied salvation” (or something close to it). It may seem a moot point, but – WHY not USE “Scriptural Terms”, if you’re going to teach Bible doctrine? The following verses are the only verses that I could find, out of all the verses in the Bible, with the word “apply” or “applied” in them.

Psalms 90:12 So teach us to number our days, that we may apply our hearts unto wisdom.

Proverbs 2:2 So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding;

Proverbs 22:17 Bow down thine ear, and hear the words of the wise, and apply thine heart unto my knowledge.

Proverbs 23:12 Apply thine heart unto instruction, and thine ears to the words of knowledge.

Ecclesiastes 7:25 I applied mine heart to know, and to search, and to seek out wisdom, and the reason of things, and to know the wickedness of folly, even of foolishness and madness:

Ecclesiastes 8:9 All this have I seen, and applied my heart unto every work that is done under the sun: there is a time wherein one man ruleth over another to his own hurt.

Ecclesiastes 8:16 When I applied mine heart to know wisdom, and to see the business that is done upon the earth: (for also there is that neither day nor night seeth sleep with his eyes)

Every single verse has to do with men “applying” their hearts unto “something” (knowledge, understanding, instruction, wisdom, every work) – NOT “the Holy Spirit has applied salvation” unto men (or women). The statement is probably true, but the use of words and phrases that cannot be found in the Holy Scriptures opens up avenues for private interpretation; and it’s hard enough dealing with men privately interpreting the Scriptures – never mind having to deal with words and phrases that are foreign to the Bible.

The following are some verses (from the Holy Bible) describing the Holy Spirit’s work in our salvation. In addition to convicting and calling men (through God’s word) - AFTER we BELIEVE the Gospel - the Holy Spirit WASHES, REGENERATES, SEALS, SANCTIFIES, and RENEWS us. IF that’s what Calvinists believe when they say: “the Holy Spirit has applied salvation”, then that is satisfactory to a Bible believer.

Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

I believe that genuine Bible believers can accept the rest of the statement, made by Calvinists, as being true and doctrinally sound; although the use of 1 Corinthians 10:13 “hints” at Christians being UNABLE to FALL into sin – because of the so-called “perseverance” of the saints - a doctrine that would promote “sinless perfection”, with all of its defects and deficiencies.

“They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return.”

Personally, I do not like the term “perseverance of the saints”, which “hints” at men (the saints) having the power (within themselves) to “persevere”. I do not believe that Christian men or women have the “power” to KEEP their salvation for even one day! If it weren’t for God’s Grace; His Love; His Mercy; His Patience; His Long Suffering; and His PROMISE to KEEP and PRESERVE His saints – none of us would “persevere”!

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Psalms 31:23 O love the LORD, all ye his saints: for the LORD preserveth the faithful, and plentifully rewardeth the proud doer.

Psalms 37:28 For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.

Psalms 97:10 Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked.

Proverbs 2:8 He keepeth the paths of judgment, and preserveth the way of his saints.

1 Samuel 2:9 He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail.

Jude 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

I am done with my examination of Calvinism, or more specifically the Calvinistic doctrines known as T.U.L.I.P. I have tried to compare those doctrines with the Bible and I have found many of them to be contrary to the Holy words of God. You will notice that I have refrained from making any personal attacks on Calvin himself, or any of his followers.

If I have differed or disagreed with Calvinistic teachings, I have tried to remain within the confines of the Holy Scriptures in my rebuttal of their doctrines. I don’t profess to know everything, and neither do I think that I have all of the answers. What I do know is that, if someone like me, (without religious “training” or any formal Bible “schooling”) can refute these doctrines, (as I have from the King James Bible) then Christians should not be fearful of contending with Calvinists, just because they may be “educated” (schooled) and “well-versed” in their doctrines.

I may post another Post on this issue in the future, where I may examine the person of John Calvin himself; his background; his life; his “conduct” (his “conversation”); his “works”; and some of his other “doctrines”. I have yet to decide whether I will undertake that study or not. Suffice it to say that, from what I do know (and remember) from my studies of church history (back in the 70’s & 80’s), many of the people today, who have embraced John Calvin’s teachings and doctrines, would not have been quite so enthusiastic about the man or his doctrines if they had had to live under his oppressive ecclesiastical RULE!

Matthew 20:25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Mark 10:42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:
44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.
45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Luke 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
27 For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.

The Lord of Glory (God manifest in the flesh) set THE EXAMPLE for ALL of His servants to follow:

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

I am leery and suspicious of any Christian, (regardless of how “godly” he may appear) WHO sets about to “rule”, or “exercise authority”, or have “dominion” over other Christians; or WHO seeks to establish a “reputation” for himself. If the Lord of Glory didn’t seek these things while “serving” on this earth – WHY would ANY Christian think himself better than our Lord? Hmmm?

Matthew 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

WHY would any Christian “think” that he could “improve” on that? Or WHY would any Christian try?

[chette777]

Many blessings to our brother George for his thoughtful and tasteful exposition on the Calvinistic TULIP I am sure he is blessed as we are.