Just cause many here don't follow Calvin or his buddy Augustine (the father of the Catholic church) doesn't make us lost. Perhaps you are not one of the elect. How do you know - since you never made a personal choice to trust Christ? At least those who come to Christ the way the Scriptures command us to have that Biblical assurance when we have done so.

God's Plan vs. Man's

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Election is based on God's foreknowledge. we are called unto obedience

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

System of Grace

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

We are predestined to be like Christ when saved.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

We are chosen to be holy.

Ephesians 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

predestined to the praise of His glory. not predestined to salvation.

Ephesians 1:11-13 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Summary

Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

Why did the Jews not attain? because it was by works and not faith. why do they reject the truth?

Romans 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear) unto this day.

God's predestined plan of salvation is by grace not works. God's election is to service. God's predestined plan is to save by mercy not works.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

RE: the total depravity of man.
Scripture teaches us that fallen man has no righteousness that is acceptable before God and that even man's claimed righteousness is as filthy rags. Although, what does the Bible say about man's will or his ability or inability to respond to God's grace?
It's true that no sinner naturally seeks after God. Although that is not to say that he cannot believe the gospel when it is offered to him in the context of God's enlightenment,

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

conviction,

John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

and drawing,

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Good stuff, Beth!

God's Plan vs. Man's

Quote:
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Election is based on God's foreknowledge. we are called unto obedience

Quote:
1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Only the elect are called unto obedience and the new covenant blood gives that obedience to the elect as a gift..

ezk 36:

23And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

24For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


Look at all that Sovereignty, awesome nothing is left to freewill..The obedience of the elect is ordained by God..

rom 6:

17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

God should be Thanked when we obey, because its a result of His will not mans freewill..

Originally Posted by beloved57

Only the elect are called unto obedience and the new covenant blood gives that obedience to the elect as a gift..

The elect are those that trust in Jesus Christ and are saved. The Body of Christ, that God foreknew would be members of the Body of Christ.

The elect are those that trust in Jesus Christ and are saved.

Yes they are but you just have everything backwards, they trust because they are saved, they are born again..Its the nature of a new born nature to trust in its proginator..so trusting is resultive of being born of God..

The Body of Christ, that God foreknew would be members of the Body of Christ.

Foreknew means foreloved, he loved the elect who had been chosen in christ before the world began..

Jesus does not foreknow everyone that way sorry..

here is proof matt 7:

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

He never knew them, he never loved them intimately as he did those he elected, or choose..

God did not foreknow or love easu in the same way..

rom 9:

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Originally Posted by Beth

The elect are those that trust in Jesus Christ and are saved. The Body of Christ, that God foreknew would be members of the Body of Christ.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beloved57
Only the elect are called unto obedience and the new covenant blood gives that obedience to the elect as a gift..

I see you are disregarding the efficasiousness of the covenant blood and all the references I showed you of Gods I wills..

You have nothing to comment on those great truthes, why not ?

Originally Posted by beloved57

Yes they are but you just have everything backwards, they trust because they are saved, they are born again..Its the nature of a new born nature to trust in its proginator..so trusting is resultive of being born of God..



Foreknew means foreloved, he loved the elect who had been chosen in christ before the world began..

Jesus does not foreknow everyone that way sorry..

here is proof matt 7:

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

He never knew them, he never loved them intimately as he did those he elected, or choose..

We must reconcile the following scripture:

John 2:24-25 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

"foreknowledge" is a word that means simply that God foreknew what would happen or to know beforehand, (foresee). It is the Greek word "prognosis". The Calvinist will try to redefine "foreknowledge" into "foreordination". It is the same basic Greek word that is translated "foreknowledge" in 1 Pet. 1:2, which says the believer is "elect according to the foreknowledge
of God."

Originally Posted by beloved57

God did not foreknow or love easu in the same way..

rom 9:

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

The example of Esau and Jacob does not refer to election pertaining to personal salvation but to election pertaining to nations in God's
overall program. Romans 9:12 makes this clear. "It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger." The promise of God to Rebecca was about
the elder son serving the younger, not about their personal salvation. and of course Edom did serve Israel.

Genesis 25:30 And Esau said to Jacob, Feed me, I pray thee, with that same red pottage; for I am faint: therefore was his name called Edom.

Genesis 36:9 And these are the generations of Esau the father of the Edomites in mount Seir:

The passage you bring up has to do with how God sovereignly chose Christ's lineage.

Originally Posted by beloved57

I see you are disregarding the efficasiousness of the covenant blood and all the references I showed you of Gods I wills..

You have nothing to comment on those great truthes, why not ?

It is true God is sovereign. It is His sovereign plan of salvation by grace. He receives all of the glory for the saving of man from the wage of sin.

We must reconcile God's sovereignty and the responsibility of man. That is what some of us are attempting to do. All scripture is God breathed and scripture is the Word of God, all of it true.

The example of Esau and Jacob does not refer to election pertaining to personal salvation but to election pertaining to nations in God's
overall program

I have did a whole study on romans 9, there is nothing you can teach me about that chapter, for it is definitly about salvation..

foreknowledge" is a word that means simply that God foreknew what would happen or to know beforehand, (foresee).

Nope, you wish it did, but the scripture could have said fore saw, but thats not the emphasis, its forelove..to know in a intimate way..

also the word foreknowledge is used twice..

acts 2:

Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

1 pet 1:

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Never does it denote a just seeing in advanced..

strongs definition:

1) foreknowledge

2) forethought, pre-arrangement

Just like in acts, the death of christ was a pre arrangement by the determinate council of God..

The elects obedience is by the same, the determinate counsel of God..

The non elects disobedience is by the determinate counsel of God..

1 pet 2:

8And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Gods foreknowledge and determinate counsel determines everything..

eph 1:

11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

So your definition of foreknowledge is corrupted, it does not mean foresaw..sorry..