Originally Posted by Kiwi Christian

How big do you think it needs to be? How much space do billions of human souls, fallen angels & devils take up??

Now THAT is a good question brother...
are we talking worm souls or full size human souls?

Forgive me Kiwi, you know I had to ask this...

[Brother Tim]

sort of depends on the size of the worm...

http://www.seasky.org/deep-sea/giant-tube-worm.html

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm..._worms02m.html

http://animals.jrank.org/pages/1689/...-ACCOUNTS.html

[Kiwi Christian]

Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish

Now THAT is a good question brother...
are we talking worm souls or full size human souls?

Forgive me Kiwi, you know I had to ask this...

It's probable that the soul, once it has left a man's body, takes on the exact shape and size of that man's body. In the case of damned souls, God may change their size & shape? I still think that "their worm" is referring to their soul, but whether or not it takes on the shape of an actual worm I do not know. Dr Ruckman thinks that their shape will degenerate into a form resembling their father the Devil, that old slithering serpent.

I've been thinking about the phrase Christ used three times in Mark chapter 9 "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched", and if this worm is another creature and not the soul itself, then the text is not teaching eternal damnation of the soul, but only teaching that the worm creature never dies? See what I mean, jellybean?

Originally Posted by Kiwi Christian

It's probable that the soul, once it has left a man's body, takes on the exact shape and size of that man's body. In the case of damned souls, God may change their size & shape? I still think that "their worm" is referring to their soul, but whether or not it takes on the shape of an actual worm I do not know. Dr Ruckman thinks that their shape will degenerate into a form resembling their father the Devil, that old slithering serpent.

Yep, it's in his commentary.
And like yourself, I am not sure about all this either brother.
Oliver B. Greene believed as you do, but he avoided any details.

Originally Posted by Kiwi Christian

I've been thinking about the phrase Christ used three times in Mark chapter 9 "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched", and if this worm is another creature and not the soul itself, then the text is not teaching eternal damnation of the soul, but only teaching that the worm creature never dies? See what I mean, jellybean?

I don't follow you brother, but clearly you have sucked me into this cursed worm debate once more (you rascal).

Okay let's see...

The word "damnation" does not appear anywhere in this chapter, however:

I see the UNQUENCHING FIRE no less than six times in that passage.

I see the word HELL no less than three times in there.

So, whether this worm is the human soul or a devouring maggot that never dies, it would have no bearing on the fact that there is severe and everlasting BURNING punishment implied.

I still think these are the supernatural worms of hell which cover Lucifer (Satan) in Isaiah 14:9-15.

Furthermore, I think the the rich man in hell appeared to Abraham as a MAN in flames. Abraham seemed to recognize this fellow as a human, for he detailed his life on earth and referred to him as a "son" not a degenerated worm without hands or feet, etc.

Food for thought, just food for thought.

[Kiwi Christian]

Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish

Furthermore, I think the the rich man in hell appeared to Abraham as a MAN in flames. Abraham seemed to recognize this fellow as a human, for he detailed his life on earth and referred to him as a "son" not a degenerated worm without hands or feet, etc.

That's true, but that was in "hell" NOT in the "lake of fire". Two different locations, one is a temporary 'prison' until the resurrection of the dead, and the other is their final and permanent destination, and that's the context of Isaiah 66:24 which Jesus was referring to.

Brings up an interesting point, those in hell will be resurrected before they are tossed into the lake of fire, so maybe they retain their human form until the resurrection and then begin their degeneration once in the lake!

Originally Posted by Kiwi Christian

That's true, but that was in "hell" NOT in the "lake of fire". Two different locations, one is a temporary 'prison' until the resurrection of the dead, and the other is their final and permanent destination, and that's the context of Isaiah 66:24 which Jesus was referring to.

Brings up an interesting point, those in hell will be resurrected before they are tossed into the lake of fire, so maybe they retain their human form until the resurrection and then begin their degeneration once in the lake!

Problem is, that would mean the human soul is a worm, and we have already covered that. These horrible creatures are not human souls, not degenerated former human-worms, not armless men, not maggot-men, not worm-boys, not homo-sapiens-worms, and not cute little wiggle-worms. The little book Ruckman preaches about called "Beyond Death's Door" by Dr. Maurice Rawlings gives a good description; they are big and nasty enough to be considered as "red snakes" by a patient who apparently died and saw them in chapter one. The description of that hellish vision convinced the atheist Rawlings to reconsider his position of "higher learning" and get saved. (the fact that the patient's hair was standing on end probably helped).

Let's review...

These creatures are made for a special purpose, they NEVER die, just like "the fire that NEVER shall be quenched." (Mark 9:43-48). These nasty worms are associated in scripture with hell and satan. (Isaiah 14:9-15).

God apparently used some unusual worms to devour Herod Agrippa in a matter of seconds (Acts 12:23), and we know God has used fiery serpents to torment and kill people (Numbers 21:6-9) so I have no problem seeing these as His instruments of eternal torment... just like the torment of those horrible flames.

To me the picture is clear; this means the child murderer who killed little six year old Adam Walsh and tossed his severed head in a Florida canal will not only BURN forever, he or she will be GNAWED UPON by worms, like rotten fruit for all eternity.

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by Kiwi Christian

But the location of Isaiah 66:23 & 24 is relating to verse 22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD". I'm not so sure there will even be a Dead Sea on the new earth? I believe that the current one will be melted up with everything else before the Lord creates the new heavens and earth.

2 Peter 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Matt, God gave Abraham and his seed a land grant that is eternal. Jerusalem and Israel, even in New Heavens and New Earth, will be in the same location. If the lake of fire is eternal it;s location is eternal.

But you know what? I'm gonna take everything you have said to me on the topic and study it. It's a little side study, but interesting as Sheol

Grace and peace to you

Tony

[Kiwi Christian]

Originally Posted by tonybones2112

Matt, God gave Abraham and his seed a land grant that is eternal. Jerusalem and Israel, even in New Heavens and New Earth, will be in the same location.

I'm not so sure that the new earth with be an exact duplicate geographically of this present one, I don't think the scripture necessitates it. Can you please post the verses you have in mind about this eternal land grant brother Tony?

Originally Posted by tonybones2112

If the lake of fire is eternal it;s location is eternal.

The lake of fire will not be burning until after the existing elements burn up and the great white throne judgment takes place, so technically it doesn't even exist yet!

[Kiwi Christian]

Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish

Problem is, that would mean the human soul is a worm, and we have already covered that.

It's not a problem as far as I'm concerned brother.

Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish

These horrible creatures are not human souls, not degenerated former human-worms, not armless men, not maggot-men, not worm-boys, not homo-sapiens-worms, and not cute little wiggle-worms. The little book Ruckman preaches about called "Beyond Death's Door" by Dr. Maurice Rawlings gives a good description; they are big and nasty enough to be considered as "red snakes" by a patient who apparently died and saw them in chapter one. The description of that hellish vision convinced the atheist Rawlings to reconsider his position of "higher learning" and get saved. (the fact that the patient's hair was standing on end probably helped).

I'm highly sceptical of these near-death/clinically dead experiences that people have written about, especially when they go into much detail about hell and it's inhabitants. A good example is "23 Minutes in Hell" by Bill Wiese:

http://spiritlessons.com/DOCUMENTS/B...nHell_Text.htm

"Bill Wiese saw the searing flames of hell, felt total isolation, and experienced the putrid and rotting stench, deafening screams of agony, terrorizing demons, and finally, the strong hand of God lifting him out of the pit.
"Tell them I am coming very, very soon!" "

To me this nullifies faith, I don't believe God allows people to see & experience supernatural things that would cause them to believe in Him. Sure, in Old Testament times God worked that way, through dreams and visions, but not in this Church Age.

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish

Horror story, well I agree my brother...
Then again, what could be more horrible than billions of people burning for eternity? Does it sound like science fiction to you, well okay brother but have you ever read Ruckman's description of the New Jerusalem, the Great White Throne Judgement or the flying roll of Zech. 5?

The more I look at Isaiah 66, the less I am convinced it is teaching anything about the Dead Sea being the Lake of Fire or its distance from Jerusalem. Please forgive me guys, maybe it's there, but I'm just not seeing it.

Let's face it, Isaiah 66:22 sets the context as the NEW heavens and the NEW earth, if God wants to he can set up a system for all flesh to see them burning on the surface of some NEW version of a sun or sun-like creation, a great burning mass of fire, who knows. The sun---now THAT is one big lake of fire, (maybe 11000°F) and it's close enough that everyone on earth already sees it every day. The rich man in Luke 16 was able to SEE Abraham, even though there was a "GREAT GULF fixed" between them. Even with our primitive video systems we can see things in great detail that are far away right now.

Again, the context of Isaiah 66:22 sets the context as the NEW heavens and the NEW earth, so I'm not sure the passage in Isaiah 66 is teaching anything about the Dead Sea being the Lake of Fire, I guess to me that feels like speculation of men as well. But there is nothing wrong with that of course---after all, we are not discussing doctrinal foundations here.

The first setting of Rev. 20-21 is marked by a spiritual being with a key of the "bottomless pit" and a chain, where Satan is imprisoned. By the time we get to wherever and whatever the Lake of Fire is, (vs. 10-15) this burning thing is able to hold not only the devil and his angels for which it was prepared, it is also going to HOLD "DEATH AND HELL." This does not sound like a lake on earth to me with earthly fire, this seems more unearthly. Besides, the first earth has "passed away." This isn't Kansas anymore. (Rev 21:1, II Peter 3:10)

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think in this setting we will be witnessing and dealing with events and locations that are on a different physical and spiritual plane than we can imagine. Try as we might to grasp all this, the reality is that God has prepared some things that have not even entered into our hearts or imagination (1 Corinthians 2:9).

I didn;t mean to drag hell down to the level of a fictional story brother, I agree hell is terrible beyond human understanding.

Or is it?

The fire and the worms, yes, the real hell is being out of God's presence for all eternity, never knowing the ultimate Good, never resting, never a nanosecond's relief.

Isaac Asimov once write a story called HELLFIRE where a highspeed film was taken of a nuclear explosion, when the film was played at normal speed the face of Satan was seen, course the worldly image of Satan: Van Dyke beard and the horns on the forehead.

The idea hell is a star, pardon the pohrase, inspires me to develop a story for my scifi collection. Think I'll call it A STAR NAMED GEHENNA.

Grace and peace brother Parrish

Tony