[stephanos]

Originally Posted by chette777

whats with all the Latin?

Latin is a key to where the solas come form. Interesting point though

Yeah, pretty much. Most of the folks behind those Solas are ex-latin-using baby sprinkling pagans. Not that I disagree with the solas, but I am not a fan of those folks out there that use fancy sayings in other languages to sound spiritual or what have you.

Peace and Love,
Stephen

[PB1789]

Originally Posted by Gord

1 Sola scriptura ("by Scripture alone")
2 Sola fide ("by faith alone")
3 Sola gratia ("by grace alone")
4 Solus Christus ("Christ alone")
5 Soli Deo gloria ("glory to God alone")

Never having studied anything on the reformation, I was under the impression that the 5 solas were all part of the split. Was this introduced by Calvin or another of the reformers? To me the solas have scriptural grounding.

I was wondering as Calvin took his T.U.L.I.P. 5 points that brother George has so graciously given us his edification on this, showing us the variances and lack of scriptural grounding, so I was googling to try and find the correlation if there is one.

If this is not the right spot for this question Brandon please feel free to move it to a new topic.

Gord --- Hello. Here are three links for you and anyone else who wants to look at some information pertaining to what you posted.

http:/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Solas With several links in the margin.

http://www.monergism.com/directory/l...ry/Five_Solas/

http://www.fivesolas.com/ look in the Margin links.

No need for anyone to be afraid of Latin. It is and was the language of learning. Theology, and also many other fields such as Law, Medicine, Flora and Fauna ( oops another couple of Latin words - as in plants and animals.)

The Solas were written in Latin because the teachings and sermons of the Protestant Reformers were in various countries with their own native tongues. Czechs/Swiss/Germans/Bohemians/Austrians/English/Scots/Netherlanders/Flanders and Flemish (Belgium)/ French/Swedes/Danes/Norsk/Fins/Poles/Italians/Spanish and Portugese... But, because Latin was the Language used by all the colleges/Universities--- and all the Pastors had been trained and taught in Latin, thus it was the easiest way to get out the message to the various places in Europe of the Biblical Gospel of God's Grace, instead of the Vatican method of following what the Pope and Cardinals said.

Another thing. This Thread is called "Calvinism" and several folks are thinking that John Calvin wrote the "T U L I P" as they are trying to insult "a wilting flower"... Calvin wrote "The Institutes of the Christian Religion" in the 1500's. TULIP was penned as a REPLY to the attacks of the ARMINIANS (not armEnians---they live near present-day Turkey) in the 1600's in The Netherlands, where students of Jacob Hermann (Jacobus Arminius-his Latinized name) a professor -- taught the very things that most of the "Free-Will" folks on this website hold to... but don't even know that they are just doing what Arminius' students did centuries ago in Holland when they attacked the Biblical Doctrine of God's Sovereign Grace, and His All-Knowing/All-Seeing/Omni-Presence with the publication of the "Remonstrance".

Gord --- I strongly encourage you to look at the links above and then go to the public Library in your town/city and check-out Calvin"s Institutes of the Christian Religion". There is a paperback 1 vol. for sale and a 2vol. hardback if you wish to purchase. There are websites that have the Institutes on the Internet for free. Read what Jean Calvin wrote himself. Look at his commentaries on various Bible books. Read his sermons. Enjoy! Feast!

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/institutes.html

Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God. Amen! Ps. 90:1,2

[George]

Aloha all,

This is in reply to PB1789’s Post #72 - part of which follows:

“Another thing. This Thread is called "Calvinism" and several folks are thinking that John Calvin wrote the "T U L I P" as they are trying to insult "a wilting flower"... Calvin wrote "The Institutes of the Christian Religion" in the 1500's. TULIP was penned as a REPLY to the attacks of the ARMINIANS (not armEnians---they live near present-day Turkey) in the 1600's in The Netherlands, where students of Jacob Hermann (Jacobus Arminius-his Latinized name) a professor -- taught the very things that most of the "Free-Will" folks on this website hold to... but don't even know that they are just doing what Arminius' students did centuries ago in Holland when they attacked the Biblical Doctrine of God's Sovereign Grace, and His All-Knowing/All-Seeing/Omni-Presence with the publication of the "Remonstrance"."

First of all, I want to apologize to those members on the Forum who may have been offended by misspelling “Arminian” - Armenian some of the time. Although I didn’t misspell it wrong all of the time, I did misspell it 2 or 3 times – My deepest apologies!

After a quick review of my Posts on Calvinism, I can find no place where I ever attributed the famous acronym “T.U.L.I.P.” to John Calvin. The acronym is a well known part of Calvinism though, since today’s “Calvinists” still use it (400 years later) in defense of their heretical doctrines.

The following statements (made by yours truly) are the EXACT reproductions of my introduction to each of my Posts. Please note that each time I said: “Calvinists state:” (NOT John Calvin said!)

My Second Post - Post #3:

And now on to T.U.L.I.P. {the famous acronym associated with Calvinistic beliefs}

T = “Total Depravity” (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)

The very first thing to note is: The words “DEPRAVE”, “DEPRAVED”, or “DEPRAVITY” cannot be found in the Holy Bible. This is always a “Red Flag” for me, since so much of False Doctrine (Psychiatry/Psychology for example) is associated with “words” not found in the Bible.

Calvinists state:

My Third Post - Post #9:

T.U.L.I.P. {the famous acronym associated with Calvinistic beliefs}

U = “Unconditional Election”

{The word “election” is Scriptural - The Phrase “Unconditional Election” cannot be found in the Bible! As a matter of fact – the words “conditional” and/or “unconditional” do not appear one time in Scripture!}

Calvinists state:

My Fourth Post - Post #45:

We are now ready to examine the third main tenet of Calvinism in the light of God’s Holy word:

T.U.L.I.P. {the famous acronym associated with Calvinistic beliefs}

L =“Limited Atonement”(also known as Particular Atonement)

Calvinists state:

My Fifth Post - Post #67:

T.U.L.I.P.{the famous acronym associated with Calvinistic beliefs}

I = “Irresistible Grace”

Calvinists state:

And now on to PB 1789’s Post:

“Another thing. This Thread is called "Calvinism" and several folks are thinking that John Calvin wrote the "T U L I P" as they are trying to insult "a wilting flower"... Calvin wrote "The Institutes of the Christian Religion" in the 1500's. TULIP was penned as a REPLY to the attacks of the ARMINIANS (not armEnians---they live near present-day Turkey) in the 1600's in The Netherlands, where students of Jacob Hermann (Jacobus Arminius-his Latinized name) a professor -- taught the very things that most of the "Free-Will" folks on this website hold to... but don't even know that they are just doing what Arminius' students did centuries ago in Holland when they attacked the Biblical Doctrine of God's Sovereign Grace, and His All-Knowing/All-Seeing/Omni-Presence with the publication of the "Remonstrance".”

For the record - This thread is titled: “CALVINISM : Sound Doctrine?”

For the record – I am not trying to “insult” anyone. I am trying to examine the doctrines of Calvinism in the light of the Holy Scriptures – if someone is insulted because of the comparison of Scripture with the doctrines of Calvinism, I cannot help it, and to tell the truth, I really don’t care whether their “feelings” are hurt, or not. Let the chips fall where they may!

For the record – Please note how a Calvinist (PB1789) goes about labeling (“the "Free-Will" folks on this website”) those of us who disagree with his “precious doctrine”, and placing us in the "ARMINIAN" Camp, just exactly as I said most Calvinists do, in my introductory remarks to this Thread!

My exact quote:

“Firstly - I do not accept the premise that: “There are two mains camps of theology within Christianity in America today: Arminianism and Calvinism.”

There is a “THIRD CAMP” (that most Calvinists refuse to recognize), of which I am a member. I will not let anyone “classify” me (or what I believe) in ONLY ONE of two possible camps, simply because they do not believe that a “Third Camp” exists – or because they refuse to recognize it. And herein lays my first “problem” with Calvinism (or more properly – with some Calvinists): When there is a disagreement amongst Christians (over doctrine or issues of importance), the ability to “DEFINE” the issues cannot be controlled by only one of those parties!”

For the record – PB1789’s statement:

“No need for anyone to be afraid of Latin. It is and was the language of learning. Theology, and also many other fields such as Law, Medicine, Flora and Fauna ( oops another couple of Latin words - [IMG]file:///G:/DOCUME%7E1/GEORGE%7E1/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image001.gif[/IMG] as in plants and animals.)”

LATIN may be many things, but there is one thing it definitely is NOT – the language that God chose to Preserve His Holy word in! LATIN may be the language of “THEOLOGY”, but it’s NOT the language that God has chosen to teach the common man His Holy word!

LATIN “IS the language of learning”? Where has PB1789 been for the last 100 years? Scientists and “Theologians” may use some Latin words to make their discoveries, theories, and beliefs sound intellectual, brainy, highbrow, and “scholarly”, but other than that, I have news for PB1789 – LATIN IS A DEAD LANGUAGE; and has been for centuries (except for a handful of smug, arrogant scholars & scribes {mostly Roman Catholic} who think that they are better and smarter than all of us “dumb” folks.)

For the record – PB1789 stated:

“Latin was the Language used by all the colleges/Universities--- and all the Pastors had been trained and taught in Latin, thus it was the easiest way to get out the message to the various places in Europe of the Biblical Gospel of God's Grace, instead of the Vatican method of following what the Pope and Cardinals said.”

The “training” and teaching and use of Latin didn’t prevent ALL of those Colleges and Universities and ALL of their students (pastors) from eventually apostatizing and becoming reprobate – did it? I wonder if the problem could have been that they were getting “out the MESSAGE (Calvinism?)”, INSTEAD OF PREACHING AND TEACHING THE HOLY WORDS OF GOD – is it possible?

For the record – PB1789 stated:

“Calvin wrote "The Institutes of the Christian Religion" in the 1500's. TULIP was penned as a REPLY to the attacks of the . . . . in the 1600's in The Netherlands, where students of Jacob Hermann (Jacobus Arminius-his Latinized name) a professor -- taught the very things that most of the "Free-Will" folks on this website hold to... but don't even know that they are just doing what Arminius' students did centuries ago in Holland when they attacked the Biblical Doctrine of God's Sovereign Grace, and His All-Knowing/All-Seeing/Omni-Presence with the publication of the "Remonstrance".”

So we, (us “Free-Will Folks”) are teaching the “very (same) things” that Jacob Herman (“Arminius”) and his students taught way back in Calvin’s day and we - “don't even know that they are just doing what Arminius' students did centuries”. We don’t even know what we are doing? Am I copying what those students said many years ago? I trow not! Then I must be “psychic” or just plain ignorant, since John Calvin and his writings are to be “revered” as the end all, to all “theological” discussion and debate!

And all this time I thought that the King James Bible is our FINAL AUTHORITY in all matters of faith and practice (NOT John Calvin). Do I detect just a tad bit of “arrogance” on the part of our Calvinist brother, PB1789?

For the record – PB1789 stated:

“Gord --- I strongly encourage you to look at the links above and then go to the public Library in your town/city and check-out Calvin"s Institutes of the Christian Religion". There is a paperback 1 vol. for sale and a 2vol. hardback if you wish to purchase. There are websites that have the Institutes on the Internet for free. Read what Jean Calvin wrote himself. Look at his commentaries on various Bible books. Read his sermons. Enjoy! Feast!”

If I ever honor or revere some man, or his writings, as our brother PB1789 has just done in the preceding quote, I want some of the men on this Forum to come to Broken Arrow and kick my "you know what"! FEAST!??? – On a mere man’s WRITINGS? When the Holy Scriptures say:

Job 23:12 Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food.

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

FEAST? On the writings of a mere man who lived 500 years ago, and who was clearly “OFF” in his doctrine? Give me a break! If any one wants to “FEAST”, rather than dine on the dried up husks and chewed up “bones” offered by Calvin and his followers, I recommend that Christians everywhere “FEAST” on the Holy words of God, and leave the "scraps" and “leavings” to the scholars and the scribes!

SWEET ‑ PSALMS 119:103How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth!

HONEY – PSALMS 119:103How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth!
WATER– EPHESIANS 5:25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

MILK – 1 PETER 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

MEAT - HEBREWS 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

“FEAST”? On John Calvin’s writings – when you can “FEAST” on God’s Holy word? Thanks, but NO THANKS!

For the record – Please take note: PB1789 doesn't bother to refute the points I have made (from the Scriptures) exposing the errors in Calvinism; he just ridicules and labels some of us, and the then extols the "virtues" of John Calvin and his doctrine (i.e. Calvinism).

If PB1789 cannot, on his own, refute the points that I have made (using Scripture) exposing the errors of Calvinism, he should be ashamed of himself. If PB1789 believes so strongly in Calvinistic doctrine, he should at least, be able to defend his beliefs (with Scripture) - without resorting to the writings of John Calvin or other Calvinists.

I haven’t resorted to any man, or any man’s writings in exposing the errors of Calvinism, PB1789 should be able, on his own, to take the Holy Scriptures and demolish my reasoning, point by point. If I am wrong in my beliefs, at least I won’t be wrong because I am following a mere man. If I am wrong in my beliefs, it will be because I failed to “rightly divide the word of truth”, NOT because I followed some man’s writings!

I am interested in the Truth; the whole Truth; and NOTHING but the Truth. I have proven, with Scripture, that John Calvin and the doctrine of Calvinism doesn’t measure up to the Truth. Why should anyone rely on him or his writings, if a nobody, like me, can demonstrate (over and over again) the errors, failings, and shortcomings of his “doctrine”?

WHY would I settle for second (or third, or fourth, or fifth best) when I have God’s perfect word that I can rely on ALL OF THE TIME?

PSALMS 119:105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

PS.ALMS 119:160Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

ISAIAH 40:8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.

John Calvin and CALVINISM don’t even come close!

[PB1789]

George my post above was to Gord. It is obvious that you have your mind made up already. You are invited to click on any one of those free sites to access information though.

I did not mention you by name for a reason. The Thread that you started and your "Amen" corner on this website tend to drown out anyone that doesn't follow the writings of the guy from Pensacola. Someone else (one of your fans) wrote the line about TULIP being a wilting flower. I know you read all the "attaboys" that they post. With each one of their approval smiley faces, you are recharged and go on for another anti-Calvinism post.

It was someone else that spelled armEnian rather than Arminians... typical of the anti-Reformation crowd. Many folks buy whole-hog the Arminian "Remonstrance" yet don't even know that it was written before the TULIP.

BTW- Please do read the Word of God. But, this time while reading John's Gospel please do not skip over John 6, John 10 or John 17. Calvinism starts at Gen. 1:1 and goes all the way through the Bible... without using a meat cleaver to cut the parts that don't fit into the worldview of the Free-Will folks.

Gord: --- If you are reading this please: Click on the links I posted. I was simply trying to give you an answer to your post without taking up a whole page of bandwidth. "Great is the Lord - and greatly to be praised!

{oops- the wikipedia link should have had another / in the address }

[George]

Originally Posted by PB1789

"George my post above was to Gord. It is obvious that you have your mind made up already. You are invited to click on any one of those free sites to access information though.

I did not mention you by name for a reason. The Thread that you started and your "Amen" corner on this website tend to drown out anyone that doesn't follow the writings of the guy from Pensacola. Someone else (one of your fans) wrote the line about TULIP being a wilting flower. I know you read all the "attaboys" that they post. With each one of their approval smiley faces, you are recharged and go on for another anti-Calvinism post.

It was someone else that spelled armEnian rather than Arminians... typical of the anti-Reformation crowd. Many folks buy whole-hog the Arminian "Remonstrance" yet don't even know that it was written before the TULIP.

BTW- Please do read the Word of God. But, this time while reading John's Gospel please do not skip over John 6, John 10 or John 17. Calvinism starts at Gen. 1:1 and goes all the way through the Bible... without using a meat cleaver to cut the parts that don't fit into the worldview of the Free-Will folks.

Gord: --- If you are reading this please: Click on the links I posted. I was simply trying to give you an answer to your post without taking up a whole page of bandwidth. "Great is the Lord - and greatly to be praised!

{oops- the wikipedia link should have had another / in the address }"

To PB1789,

My address was to ALL (on the Forum - including you) and, the last time I checked, I'm still free to express my comments here (whether you like it, or not).

"George my post above was to Gord."

The reason I bothered to reply to your Post, is because of your off-hand remarks that cast aspersions on not only me, but others on this Forum. I would have left well enough alone, had you refrained from making your disparaging comments.

Please note:

Your snide remarks, insinuating comments, and innuendo are fairly typical of the "feminized" American Christian man. Instead of standing up (like a real man), and calling a spade, a spade - through innuendo, implication, insinuation, and imputation you "hint" at many people, and cast aspersions, without ever coming out (like a real man) and just say what you mean. Too bad, but that's you're problem - it certainly is not mine!

It seems to me that we both have our minds "made up" - the only difference being that, while I have backed up my beliefs by specifically quoting dozens of verses from the Holy Bible and making application, you have referred to men; and instead of "quoting" verses and applying them, all you have done is cite verse references without any application, i.e.:

"BTW- Please do read the Word of God. But, this time while reading John's Gospel please do not skip over John 6, John 10 or John 17. Calvinism starts at Gen. 1:1 and goes all the way through the Bible... without using a meat cleaver to cut the parts that don't fit into the worldview of the Free-Will folks."

Citing verses in support of a doctrine (Calvinism), without making any application, doesn't PROVE anything, except the fact that you, yourself, may be unable to defend your beliefs, and so you depend on other men to do your thinking for you.

I reviewed several of our encounters since you joined the Forum last May, and was reminded that we have "clashed" in the past (Over the King James Bible issue and Calvinism), and that each time you fail to back up what you believe, so it is no surprise to me now that you "skinny out" again with the lame excuse that: "your "Amen" corner on this website tend to drown out anyone that doesn't follow the writings of the guy from Pensacola."; "I know you read all the "attaboys" that they post. With each one of their approval smiley faces, you are recharged and go on for another anti-Calvinism post."

I don't know - HOW you know, how I feel when I read other people's Posts, but maybe you are clairvoyant. If I didn't know better though, I would suspect that there might be just a tinge of jealousy there, but that couldn't be possible - could it?

Your quote:

"It was someone else that spelled armEnian rather than Arminians... typical of the anti-Reformation crowd. Many folks buy whole-hog the Arminian "Remonstrance" yet don't even know that it was written before the TULIP."

I've got "news" for you. My "Remonstrance" is NOT Arminian, and it was NOT written BEFORE T.U.L.I.P.! I just wrote it this year - without referring once to other men (especially that guy in Pensacola!). My "Remonstrance" comes from comparing Scripture with Scripture and then comparing those Scriptures with Calvinistic doctrine.

Your weak attempt to "classify" and "label" all of us who disagree with you and your beliefs as the "the Free-Will folks", is the "last refuge" of a man who is unable to defend what he believes, and ends up calling people names! SAD!

The Title of this Thread is "Calvinism: Sound Doctrine?". I have asked the question - Is Calvinism sound doctrine? I have compared what Calvinists have said in defense of their doctrine, and have demonstrated (from the Scriptures) that much of Calvinistic doctrine is contrary to the Holy Scriptures. It is up to the people on this Forum to examine (for themselves) whether what I have presented is true or not. Ultimately it is up to each of us to: "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." [2 Timothy 2:15]

The commandment is to Study the Scriptures; Read the Scriptures; Search the Scriptures; NOT Study, Read, and Search the Writings of mere MEN! I urge everyone on this Forum to obey God's commandment and do their own reading, studying, and searching, and not rely on Men {and that includes me!}.

Psalms 118:8 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

[Luke]

Why is it PB1789, that whenever you have to defend the "doctrines of grace", you point to Calvin's institutes, the westminster confession or some other confession, and rarely to the Bible.

John 6 is in the Bible. John 17 is in the Bible and so is John 10. Yet Calvinism is not taught in any of them. God's drawing is taught, but God's drawing is not regeneration, and there is nothing to suggest a man cannot resist the drawing of God in John 6:44. In John 17, Jesus Christ also prays for those who will believe on him after hearing his word through the apostles.

Now, PB1789, since you are so bent on correcting minor spelling mistakes, will you stop referring to the written word as deity? The Bible is the word of God. Jesus Christ is the Word of God. The Bible even makes this differentiation.

Furthermore, just because Calvin didn't "invent" the five points doesn't mean he didn't believe them. Also, calvin wrote this in his institutes:

We must realize that at whatever time we are baptized, we are once for all washed and purged for our whole life. (4.15.3)

[Forrest]

Hello Brother George. I agree with the sound Biblical teaching in your posts. So, I guess we are of the "same mind" and that puts me in the corner! I hope you are planning to put this entire teaching on your website so I can direct others to it.

[Gord]

Originally Posted by PB1789

Gord --- Hello. Here are three links for you and anyone else who wants to look at some information pertaining to what you posted....

Thank you I have those book marked, but I am looking for (if any) the direct relation of the solas to Calvin. I will keep searching and reading.

[Gord]

Originally Posted by stephanos

Yeah, pretty much. Most of the folks behind those Solas are ex-latin-using baby sprinkling pagans. Not that I disagree with the solas, but I am not a fan of those folks out there that use fancy sayings in other languages to sound spiritual or what have you.

Peace and Love,
Stephen

To understand the freedom you have to day, I at least am curious as to how those ex-latin-using baby sprinkling pagans" (the folks who had the courage to defy the roman catholic church) as you call them, came to begin to understand then, under the "rule of the roman church" the glen of light and truth that today afford us the freedom in Christ we can now understand and enjoy. I prefer to be curious to understand, rather then pigeon holing a group of people at the faults of others.

[Gord]

Originally Posted by George

...

WHY would I settle for second (or third, or fourth, or fifth best) when I have God’s perfect word that I can rely on ALL OF THE TIME?

..

and hence my question on the solas to try and understand the courage of the reformers to get us to this point. My original question as to it there was any link of Calvin to the solas still tweaks my curiosity.