[chette777]

BABB,

Italicized words are quotes from your post

Doesn't a dispensation refer to a deployment of God's grace towards mankind?

In Paul’s use of the word dispensation has the meanings of dispensation which is God dispensing to him the Gospel of grace for mankind today. But as you say next they are also categorized as periods of time. In our case 24/7 time was established in Gen1:3-5 and we could establish that before Gen1:3-5 is eternity or a dispensation that predates our current 24/7TQ. so Dispensations are also divisions of time. in this case division of the 24/7 from eternity.

2Tim 2:15 says to ...rightly divide. When we do we divide things into sections. Any one who divides scriptures is a dispensationalist. But remember dispensation is not limited to God dealing only Grace with man but also deals with how God does other things such a create. So dispensation is also divisions of time periods. In the case Dispensation used in dividing Eternity from the current 24/7TQ is neither wrong nor unbiblical

The dispensations get cataloged by periods of time in relation to events that affect and involve men, however they are not specifically periods of time. They are defined by changes in God's dealing with mankind.

Dispensations are not limited to just involve men but all of creation. In Larkin’s charts “The Ages as Viewed from Different Standpoints” you will see he called Eternity “the Ages of Ages” here we can see two distinct periods separated by our 24/7TQ. 1) A period before the six day creation (Gen 1:1, Prov 8 22-24) and 2) a time period at and after the new heaven and new earth (Rev 20:11-chapter 22). Now God and Eternity are currently present around us. But we have no way of measuring it accurately because God limited us to 24/7.

I've never ever heard of anyone refer to eternity (E.past nor E.present: if such a thing can exist) as a dispensation.

For lack of a better term and in a way you can understand it today we call Eternity Past and Eternity future dispensations. Or periods of un understood time I call the eternal TQ. To get an idea of it Peter and the Psalmist both tell us the a day IS AS 1,000 years. They are not saying it is equal but they are just trying to give us an understanding to something we do not understand clearly Eternity. Eternity Past is pre Gen 1:3 and eternity future is post Rev 20:11 I am not the only man to use those terms for eternity. But what it represents is that outside our 24/7Time measurement or Time quantum TQ.

IF there was a gap at all, mankind wasn't there, therefor it can't be called a dispensation.

Dispensations are not limited to man kind. When we use dispensations as an understanding of divisions of scriptures. God has always given grace towards men you will find grace through out scripture in God dealing with men and his people. But it is not limited to that meaning alone. As noted above. Dispensation deal with God creation as well. So when God created the Heaven, the earth, the Depth (deep) and Water when was that before or after Genesis 1:3-5? That was in a different time measurement from the creation of 24/7, the making of the firmament, plants and animals, the sun, moon planets and stars, dividing the water and land, and the creation of man.

It makes perfect sense that Satan's fall occurred INSIDE time, hence all the verb tenses used in the scriptures when describing that event.

I have tried to explain but the reason Lucifer’s fall ( No where in scripture is it said Satan had fallen). We associate the verse of Lucifer as used to described the King of Babylon with Satan because we know that the king of Babylon never fell from heaven. And we associate the anointed Cherub with Satan because we see him described in a perfect state, and we associate the Garden of God in Eden with the Garden God made east in Eden. But where is Eden? Eden was God’s name for the earth. It was not a single location of a certain country or land.

Now God’s word does not detail very much on Lucifers life. Why? Because he was not created during the 24/7TQ. Everything in the Bible that has to do with things outside our current TQ whether Eternity past, present or future, are never fully detailed. Take a tour in the Bible and search all those verses and you will see. Things like Lucifer, the desolation and empty earth (Gen1:2); The Seraphim, cherubim (Gen 3, Eze1,10); angels, the chariot wheeled throne of God( Ezk 1, 10Isa 6); the great white throne of God (Rev 20); the stones of fire, the mountain of God (Ezk 28); the creation of the earth, the depth, water (Gen 1:2, Pro8), the day the sons of God present themselves before God (Job 1) just to name a few. All of these have very little details and that is because they were created and made prior to Gen 1:3.

How could Lucifer/Satan exist in eternity in both his perfect state and his fallen state at the same 'time'?

You will have to seek God and his word, as scriptures do have Lucifer/Satan existing in Eternity. Remember he was created in the Eternal TQ therefore his concept of time measurement is not limited to our 24/7 though he understands it.

This concept of eternity past, present and future utterly contradicts what eternity is, turning it into simply a self-serving extended time line to fit events one doesn't want to believe that occurred inside time.

Please explain to us what is Eternity. You will be limited in doing so. I have not created anything nor turned Eternity into a self serving time line. I merely use our current time TQ and divide the 24/7 from Eternity (2Tim 2:15). I use past for that which was before Gen1:3. and I use future for that beyond Rev20:11. And I can use Eternity present concerning today in our 24/7 i.e. Jesus sitting at the right hand of the father is in eternity present. God’s word says to rightly divide and I have, am and will continue to do so.

Its far more plausible, and scripturally supported, that Satan came into our time frame from eternity, after the perfect 6-day creation, and beheld mankind, being made a little lower than the angels, and becoming proud in himself, willing that man should worship him instead of God. There's the iniquity that was found in him, inside the garden.

It wouldn’t have been Satan but Lucifer but you did say it right. Satan did come into our time frame (Established in Gen 1:3-5) as a fallen being. Which took place in eternity before Gen1:3. Beheld mankind and was jealous for God had made something uniquely like himself. Satan was never made like God, so he sought to kill the man and his wife.

Now I want you to rethink of what you said. For you just added to God word . He never asks Eve to worship him. Satan never desired, asked nor hinted that Eve or Adam should worship him. Nor do the scriptures say he was in the Garden when he fell. You have made two clear private interpretations of Gods word.

I believe he was perfect in the garden, harbored pride while observing man during the Age of innocence (a real dispensation) and then rebelled and tried to claim God's position in relation to man for himself.

Here again God says in his word Lucifer fell not because of jealousy but because he lifted his throne and tried to usurp God's throne in Heaven that is why he was fallen from heaven Isa 14. Again you are some what making a private interpretation of God’s word. when you separate the eternal events from the 24/7 events then you will get a clearer picture of what took place prior to Gen 1:2. the earth has always been called Eden by God. the Eden of the Gen 1:1 was just a planet that had been made then God created a deep and placed the planet there, later created waters and used them to flood the original Eden of which Lucifer defiled.

I propose that there was no dispensation at all until mankind was created.

You limit dispensations of time to the 24/7. Ok but that does not mean that there is no dispensation (division of time) prior to Gen1:3 and after Rev20:11.

[chette777]

Winman,

your words in italics

And that is what really gets my goat about this gap theory. It simply contradicts so much scripture. For instance, and I think this is very important, the gap theory contradicts 1 John 3:8

First of all Winman, again you limit the beginning to be Gen 1:3 because creationist view is that the beginning of Gen 1:1 was the following verse of creation. But look very carefully in Gen 1 that earth was not created any where after Gen 1:2 And Pro 8 tells us the beginning was before the earth, the depth and the water, and all those things are in Gen1:2. The earth was created according to Prov 8 before the water. Thereby no water covered it in it’s original form. and no water (seas) will cover it after Rev21

God only created two things in Gen1:3-31 Whales and men. I wonder why that is. Everything else he established or made. Semantics at best I know. But the words are different and “things that are different are not the same” PSRuckman.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
This gap theory claims that God has already destroyed some plan of Satan to set up his throne on the earth. But the Bible teaches that the very purpose of Jesus coming in the flesh (was manifested) that he might destroy the works of the devil.

The works of the Devil is not his throne but the sin he brought into God’s created 24/7 for his throne he tried to exalt was already destroyed before the fall of man. Second, our gap theory claims that Lucifer was commissioned of God in eternity past to build a throne on Eden (earth) and he created a grand one at that. It was then his heart was lifted up. He claimed the throne for himself and then tried to usurp God’s place. That is when iniquity was found in him and God wiped out his throne and all those who had helped him and all that he had made on the earth. Third, our view does not claim he created or made any reptilian beings, animals or monkey men. All fossil records found are a result of the flood of Noah.

We have never taught that is goes against 1 John 3:8. By the way which dispensation would you put the book of 1John?

So, to me, this is not some harmless difference in opinion.

We have never gone against any scriptures in anyway we only disagree with your interpretation of it

And Satan and the angels were created. They have not been in all eternity.

the earth and heaven were created in eternity what makes you think that Angels, Cherubim, Seraphim, sons of God in Job 1 were not?

You can't find a single verse in the Bible, without changing the word of God, to show when these beings were created. Why? because they were not created after Gen1:3

Col 1:16 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Now there is no way out of this verse. This says all things in heaven whether they be visible or invisible, whether they be thrones, dominions, or principalities, or powers were created by him, and for him. And we know these terms apply to Satan and the other rebellous angels.

I somewhat agree, but you have Eternity mixed with 24/7TQ. we only rightly divide to find that in eternity God created the heaven and the earth. And Col is one of those verses that does not go into details as to when he created the thrones, dominions, principalities, powers of angelic beings or his own. You would have God throne created after the 7day rest of Gen 2:2. Unless he had it already from Eternity. so these things are the fallen state of these devils, which they are not only eternal beings understanding eternal TQ but they have been put into this Firmament which is limited to the 24/7 also. these were established here after the fall of man. Possibly because of the treachery of the serpent inthe Garden.

Now as far as God created the thrones, dominions, principalities and powers of men we can trace through history and have A Bible verse that says he ordained these governing authorities and powers of men.

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Again when were these created? When did God create rulers of darkness(when?) and spiritual wickedness? You would have God to be a God of evil and he is not. Some of these things were established before Gen 1:3 and after Gen1:1 by God's foreknowledge. Just like your being in Christ Eph 1:4 (in Him)

And the gap contradicts the Lord when he told the disciples of the great tribulation.

Our Gap theory does not contradict scripture just your, Hovind’s, Mooris’, Geologist, interpretation. As a matter of fact we use many of the same scriptures (only rightly divided) that support our theory.

but the great tribulation will be worse that the Noah's flood but God wont allow it to destroy everyone because of Israel, which is the recorded history found in the Bible Jesus is not talking about anything outside the 24/7TQ for we have no detailed knowledge of those things. only bits and pieces.

Matt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved:

Again as I just responded this is the beginning of this current 24/7 TQ of recorded history. The desolation with water of the earth (that was made before there was water Prov 8) of Gen 1:2 does not record that history because it didn’t take place during the 24/7TQ but before.

The gappers claim the whole world was utterly destroyed. This is worse than Noah's flood where 8 persons were left alive, all the animals, and sea-life.

“The gappers” - you see your bigoted prejudice has all who believe in a gap lumped into one group. I differ on many point with the other five Gap theories out there and with the two non-gap known young earth views. So you better rightly divide us into our correct groups don’t lump us all together. it would be a misrepresentation of Me and others who agree with our view.

And no I don’t believe there was any animal, men or sea life on the Eden at the time of Gen1:2 that is another theory not mine. You try and cloud the issue of the Gap to BABB by blending the different theories into one. Shame on you. BABB there are five different Gap views and there are two I know of non gap young earth creationist views that differ with each other. Winman wont tell you that.

If the gap theory is true, this destruction (the ruin) is even worse than the great tribulation Jesus spoke of, for some will come through the great tribulation alive.

No it would not be as worse. For there were no men and again Jesus spoke of was since the 24/7 TQ not before. See the remarks above that answer this point already

So, this is not a harmless theory, it contradicts God's Word in many points.

No it does not contradict scriptures that are rightly divided only contradict yours, Hovind’s and others non gap and gap theories. You see Hovind and Morrise have the firmament as the cloud massed sky that didn’t produce rain until Gen 7. What a crock of beans. The word of God says in Gen2 that no rain only a mist went up and that is linked to the fact that no man was made to till the ground. Both Adam and Cain were tillers of the ground after their creation it rained.

The firmament is the container that hold in the darkness (we see at night) and the sun, moon and stars are placed there. You misuse words like you did host as you made host of Gen 2 to mean angels and it never means angels (so you change God word to fit your desire) it means a great number of men, stars, animals, and angles.

Conclusion:
The throne was actually a place for God’s Son our Lord Jesus Christ and the original purpose of the earth will be fulfilled in Rev 21 and for a ll of Eternity(still future to our 24/7) that throne will be here. This has been the purpose of the earth from the beginning Prov 8, Gen 1:1even before man is on it. Man was created to serve the Lord. Our current position in Christ was a mystery until it was revealed to Paul. And we are for the glory of the Son.

[Winman]

First of all Winman, again you limit the beginning to be Gen 1:3 because creationist view is that the beginning of Gen 1:1 was the following verse of creation. But look very carefully in Gen 1 that earth was not created any where after Gen 1:2 And Pro 8 tells us the beginning was before the earth, the depth and the water, and all those things are in Gen1:2. The earth was created according to Prov 8 before the water. Thereby no water covered it in it’s original form. and no water (seas) will cover it after Rev21

No, Proverbs 8 tells us wisdom and understanding were with God before the creation of the world.

Prov 8:1 Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?
2 She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.
3 She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.
4 Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.
5 O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.
6 Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.
7 For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.
8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.
9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.
10 Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.
11 For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.
12 I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.
13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.
15 By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.
16 By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.
17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
18 Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.
19 My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.
20 I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:
21 That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.
22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was

God is speaking of possessing wisdom and understanding before the earth was.

The beginning clearly includes those things created in Gen 1:1- 31

For Jesus himself said

Matt 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

Notice Matt 19:4 says "that he which made them" and does not use the word created. But we know Adam and Eve were created. So much for your insistance that "created" and "made" mean different things in Gen. 1

Matt 19:8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

Jesus clearly includes Adam and Eve in "the beginning".

Mark 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.

Mark 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

Adam and Eve were "in the beginning" and so was Satan's iniquity.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

Chette I could go on and on showing verses that contradict your convoluted gap theory. Obviously no amount of scripture will convince you.

[chette777]

oh my Dear Winman,

There is a chronological order to Gods creation laid out there if you cant see it. Prov 22-31 is a preserved chronological order of things. God before all and then a listing of things he was before when the LORD possessed our Lord. Yes there is an understanding of God's wisdom but it is not the only thing revealed in Proverbs 8.

I have often said that the establishment of the 24/7TQ Gen1:3 and the following verses of Gen 1:3-31 are clearly laid out for all to see the chronological historical events concerning man(many young earth and others say that Gen 1:3-31 is about creation but God only created two things in those scriptures whales and men). And that in God's word for those who want to know more they will have to search deeply to find that God reveals a chronological order that concerns Himself. and without every bringing it up in any of my writings (nor have I revealed all the points of our Gap theory we are still arraigning it) God himself led you too the only verses that lay out in scriptures the historical chronological order of things concerning Himself up to and through Gen1:1.

But seeing you changed Host to mean angels, I can safely assume you have changed other words to mean something other that it is. And I could equally assume God has blinded you for changing his word. Generally if a person does it once they have done it many times. and I have seen men blinded to his word for changing the meaning of word to fit their own agenda. and often they are very argumentative.

Again you fail to rightly divide, listen and understand. there are two beginnings concerning God found in the Scriptures you are blending the two to make it one event. Rightly divide brother rightly divide.

Prov 8 22 describes a beginning before any thing was made, Gen 1:1 describes a beginning after certain things were created. Heb 1 would describe this event

the Beginning of Mark 10 is from Gen 1:27 not Gen1:1. Adam and Eve were not there in the beginning of "His Way" of Prov 8:22 you are privately interpreting that to support your view. so your statement that "Adam and Eve were in the beginning" is nothing more than a distortion of truth.

the Beginning of Mark 13 is since our 24/7 was ordained in Gen1:3 not before.

the Beginning of John 8 would be from Gen 3 when serpent led Mrs Adam astray. Unless you want to say he murdered some beings before Genesis 1:27 and Chapter three? But then again why would Jesus mention murder of angelic beings anyway it had nothing to do with or in this 24/7. so obviously it is reference to Gen three and four at best.

Acts 15 is a pre Gen 1:1 for Acts is speaking of something before Gen 1:1 supported by, Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Hebrews 1 is a Gen 1:9 and is after the establishing the 24/7TQ reference as the word heavens, a Plural is used and lines up with Gen 2:1 not Gen 1:1. Why does it say heaven in Gen1:1 and Heavens in Gen 2:1? because there is a gap.

you can go on and on to show verse that are not rightly divided my friend not that there is a contradiction. I don't need convincing from you. your the one arguing over a non essential issue and wont let up.

[chette777]

Sorry everyone that this thread has gotten way off course from Pipes and Tabrets.

[Winman]

I have often said that the establishment of the 24/7TQ Gen1:3 and the following verses of Gen 1:3-31 are clearly laid out for all to see the chronological historical events concerning man(many young earth and others say that Gen 1:3-31 is about creation but God only created two things in those scriptures whales and men). And that in God's word for those who want to know more they will have to search deeply to find that God reveals a chronological order that concerns Himself. and without every bringing it up in any of my writings (nor have I revealed all the points of our Gap theory we are still arraigning it) God himself led you too the only verses that lay out in scriptures the historical chronological order of things concerning Himself up to and through Gen1:1.

No Chette, God did not just create the whales and man in Gen chapter 1. You twist God's Word. God had more than one word for create.

Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Here God says he created the heavens. Then God says he "formed" the earth, and "made" it, and "established" it. But this is all creation. And God being much wiser than those who attempt to twist his scriptures then says he "created" it.

And God created both the light and darkness

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Again, God shows that form, create, and make all mean the same thing.

In Gen 1:7 the Bible says, "God made the firmament", this is creation
In Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also

Here God uses the word made, but it means the same as created. Just as when God said he made the earth, formed it, established it in Isa 45:18 it shows he "created" it.

It is you that plays with God's Word.

See Chette, I don't just ramble on about things nobody can find in the Bible like your 24/7TQ. I provide scripture from God's Word. It is not I that wrests the scriptures.

You yourself say you are still arranging your theory. It is fine to have theories as long as they agree with God's Word. Your theory doesn't. I have shown numerous verses of scripture that clearly contradict your theory belief. Each time you twist scripture to make your theory work. Quite frankly, most of it is pure gobbilty-goop that nobody can understand.

Then you have the nerve to imply that you understand the scriptures better than others, and even accused BABB of adding to God's Word.

Tell me, where is this 24/7 TQ you constantly refer to in the Bible? Show me some scripture that any honest believer could easily comprehend. You don't have scripture for this, or many other points in your theory.

I don't claim to completely understand your theory, you haven't even completed it yet, who could understand something incomplete?

But I see it like this if I understand you.

Chette's Gap Theory

The beginning = Gen 1:1, then your Gap, then God restores or re-creates the destroyed Earth.

This would be two seperate creation events seperated by a gap.

But the Lord Jesus himself includes Adam and Eve at the beginning.

Matt 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

Matt 19:8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

Here the Lord Jesus shows that "at the beginning" and "from the beginning" mean the same thing to prevent those who would twist and wrest his words.

And Satan is included in the same time frame as Adam and Eve.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

So, there you have it, Adam and Eve were from the beginning, and Satan was a murderer from the beginning.

It is plain and simple to those who can see.

[chette777]

Gen1:3-31 as I posted - Bold Italicized words are mine and plain bold words of God plain Italicized are quotes from winman.

Isa 48 doesn't mention man it only records something that took place before Gen1:3 RIGHTLY DIVIDE!

Quote from Winman: See Chette, I don't just ramble on about things nobody can find in the Bible like your 24/7TQ...Tell me, where is this 24/7 TQ you constantly refer to in the Bible? Show me some scripture that any honest believer could easily comprehend. You don't have scripture for this, or many other points in your theory.

Ok here is the scripture proof you are asking for, now read slowly and comprehend the verses of Gen1:3-5 if you cannot see this then you are blinded to God's word.
3 ¶ And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day (12hours), and the darkness he called Night (12 hours). And the evening and the morning were the first day. Henceforth the FIRST 24 hour day. the establishment of a 24/7TQ
If your can't see the first 24/7 day you are truly blinded to God's word.

quote from Winman: No Chette, God did not just create the whales and man in Gen chapter 1

You claim God did not create whales and man in Gen 1. who are you kidding, do you think anyone will believe you that God did not create whales and Man in Genesis chapter one? see the following bold words Which are all the times the word create is used in Genesis Chapter One from verse 3-31 as I said in my last post. you just like to argue. try studying for a while before you stick your foot n your mouth again.

6 ¶ And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 ¶ And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
14 ¶ And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
20 ¶ And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
24 ¶ And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29 ¶ And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31 ¶ And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

thing that are differnt are not the same a good rule to follow. establish, made, et al..., and if you will remember what I said(which often you fail to show) Semantics at best.

[chette777]

Ge 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

As we all know the day after the seventh is called the first day of the week. (no need to list the scriptures we all know they exist)

This verse completes the first 24/7 week which I had called a time measurement or time Quantum (quantum means measurement) abbreviated to 24/7TQ.

but from Gen1:14-19 the 12 hour day is mentioned and the 12 hour night is mentioned and the Sun was made to rule the day and the moon was made to rule the night and the stars are the lights in the firmament to give light also during the night. these are said to be for days-24 hour period of time 24/7 TQ.

I use what God has established to study with. I can divide what took place before the 24 hour day was started from what took place afterwards. throughout the word God mentions many things that took place before the 24 hour day was established and even some events in prophecy that will take place after the 24 hour day is done away with. They are known by the fact that not much detailed information is given. like what is going on in heaven with the church after the rapture. lots of silence we know we get new bodies (takes place while the 24/7 is still in place), we know we will be judged (but we don't know how long that will take) it is not mentioned where we will live but it does say ever more to be with the Lord.

you can claim ignorance to God's word if you like but the 24 hour day was established in Gen1:3-5 and the week was completed by Gen2:2 henceforth the 24/7 TQ you live in everyday for 24/7.

[BornAgainBibleBeliever514]

You know, I was really very interested in the Gap Theory for the last year or so. I earnestly wanted to find the answers. Before I even got into reading about it on this forum, I found all the scriptural answers required to soundly and irrefutably disprove this theory. Then, with interest I have watched this comedy, but now its disintegrating into a lopsided tragedy.

quote from Winman: No Chette, God did not just create the whales and man in Gen chapter 1

You claim God did not create whales and man in Gen 1. who are you kidding, do you think anyone will believe you that God did not create whales and Man in Genesis chapter one? see the following bold words Which are all the times the word create is used in Genesis Chapter One from verse 3-31 as I said in my last post. you just like to argue. try studying for a while before you stick your foot n your mouth again.

I wouldn't have guessed anyone could actually have an appetite for foot, but you have just eaten another yet pair of sneakers by accusing Winman of something you actively did right there ^^
Winman said that God didn't just (only) create whales and mankind (ie, He created everything else as well). You misread him and assumed he claimed something obviously absurd. Six-year-olds know that God created more than just whales and man in those six days. How can you say he should study a while, when he has consistently given rock-solid scriptures over and over, from every angle, disproving the gap theory? Clearly someone able to provide more than plenty scriptures that refute the gap theory has evidently read Genesis more than a few times and wouldn't make a silly mistake like what you accuse him of.

If your can't see the first 24/7 day you are truly blinded to God's word.

As it has already been stated at least twice before, Gen 1:1, 1:2, 1:3, 1:4 and 1:5 are ALL LINKED by use of the word "And", therefor, the statement in verse 5 that this was the first day clearly includes everything from verse one. This pattern also continues throughout the entire first chapter, establishing this to be a chronological pattern that over-zealous theories attempt to break apart, shouting "Rightly Divide! Rightly Divide!" when there is no need for it to be divided at all.
And if thats not clear enough, verse 1 has the begining of time recorded plain to see: "In the beginning...".
God's Book doesn't start like all the others, with a "once upon a time..", but it starts with the very origin of time, In the beginning.

thing that are differnt are not the same a good rule to follow. establish, made, et al..., and if you will remember what I said(which often you fail to show) Semantics at best.

Aren't semantics important seeing as how every word of God is pure? Those two passages in Isaiah 45 are very good to open understanding of the words used in the creation process, and demonstrates clear parallels in the meaning of words, from the best dictionary in the world.

Stating that someone who patiently provides rock-solid scriptural proof backing up every aspect of this debate in a clear, concise manner, with no guile of difficult-to-understand concepts is argumentative is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. I barely have enough time to read the new posts on this forum, or sort through and re-read the disjointed and fragmented sentences that are the signiature of someone on a rant.

There is definately some blinding going on here. Why even have a gap theory if not to accomodate another certain unBiblical theory? There is zero doctrinal advantage to it, there is no scriptural support for it. I hesitate to even mention adding and wresting, for I myself was mislabelled that way once, and I honestly don't think you are conciously trying to do that. I know you love God's Word, and you want to know the truth, but when something is refuted so well, there comes a time to sit back and see if you could be wrong and in need of change.

Now Chette, I really want you to know that I don't harbor any hard feelings or consider you any less of a student, servant or child of God. Clearly you are willing to fight for what you beleive, and that is very commendable. But like Winman's other post about a fist-fight that turned into a friendship, there comes a time when the wiser one must cease, and allow the aggressor a chance to rethink. This can often be the moment when one can shift gears and see things more clearly.
I experienced that exact scenario in high-school once, and the other guy and I ended up best friends, and something like that just happened to me tonight. A neighbor came to my door yelling and screaming about his backyard, threatening me and swearing at the top of his voice in front of the neighborhood. After he had a chance to calm down, I went down and offered to help him clean up his yard. I got a fence-board thrown directly into my face. I continued in peace and grace with him, and ended up cleaning up his junkyard of a backyard together. It ended with him trying to offer me drinks and dope (which I cleverly refused), and after another hour of talking, he went inside and came back out to present me with a literal trophy for being the best neighbor on the block.
He's one of the toughest guys on the block, but tonight the groundwork was laid to perhaps present the gospel to him soon.

Anyways, that's off-topic, but what I'm trying to say is that I think we need to give the gap theory a rest. The argument/evidence tennis game has gone on long enough. Its time to share a popcicle in the bleachers together, and perhaps see things in a different light.
I was confused about the gap until I got down on my knees and earnestly asked God to show me truth of the matter, and eventually it came.
His peace only comes when we yeild and submit to Him, and only in that state have I ever had truths revealed to me.



I wonder is CKG's original question about the pipes ever got answered?

In Christ,
~Brian.

[geologist]

Originally Posted by chette777

Sorry everyone that this thread has gotten way off course from Pipes and Tabrets.

So am I, because this subject is getting interesting. So let's get this back on topic, please.

I am finding three (3) different Hebrew meanings for the word "pipes" in the KJV:

Examples:

1 Kings 1:40 And all the people came up after him, and the people piped with pipes, and rejoiced with great joy, so that the earth rent with the sound of them.

Hebrew: chaliyl khaw-leel' -a flute (as perforated):--pipe.

This same Hebrew word also appears in Jeremiah 48:36. Both verses are a reference to musical instruments.

Zechariah 4:2 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:

Hebrew: muwtsaqah moo-tsaw-kaw' -properly, something poured out, i.e. a casting (of metal); by implication, a tube (as cast):--when it was cast, pipe.

A similar Hebrew term is used in verse Zechariah 4:12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?

Hebrew: tsantarah tsan-taw-raw' - a tube:--pipe.

Both of the above verses reference a tubular device or structure, not a musical instrument. Then we come to the Anointed Cherub:

Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Hebrew: neqeb neh'keb -a bezel (for a gem):--pipe.

Whooo! Stop the presses! This is a fitting for a jewel, not a musical instrument.

There are at least three (3) definitions for a 'bezel' in the English language:

1. A slanting surface or bevel on the edge of a cutting tool, such as a chisel.

2. The upper, faceted portion of a cut gem, above the girdle and below the table.

3. A groove or flange designed to hold a beveled edge, as of a watch crystal or a gem.

Now, since the word "pipes" (bezel) appears in the context of jewels and coverings, this (and the Hebrew meaning) rules out that 'pipes' in Ezekiel 28:13 are music producing.

Having said that, we still have the word 'tabrets' to deal with. The word 'tabrets' appears in five (5) verses in the KJV (1Sa*18:6, Isa*24:8, Isa*30:32, Jer*31:4, Eze*28:13). In ALL five cases the Hebrew word is the same: toph tofe -a tambourine:--tabret, timbrel.

So that particular word DOES associate the Anointed Cherub with some form of music generating capacity. Somewhat like a tinkling, percussive sound.

WHY? I stumbled across this while researching the "stones of fire" mentioned in Ezekiel 28:14 and 28:16:

"stones" in Hebrew: eben eh'-ben - through the meaning to build; a stone:--+ carbuncle, + mason, + plummet, (chalk-, hail-, head-, sling-)stone(-ny), (divers) weight(-s).

This is NOT a reference to natural stones or rocks. This is related to a structure or building or something designed.

"fire" in Hebrew: esh aysh - a primitive word; fire (literally or figuratively):-- burning, fiery, fire, flaming, hot.

The implication here is of a flaming structure. Could this structure have been some sort of temple of fire? Since the Anointed Cherub's covering of jewels were very similar to stones of the Priest's breastplate (See Exodus 28), could this not indicate that this Anointed Cherub was some sort of priest of some temple of fire? That would tend to indicate he was leading worship.

A temple of fire? Why not! We are told in our Bible that there are horses and chariots of fire:

2 Kings 6:17 And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

What think ye?