There is never any mention of a “Second Coming” in the Bible. The nearest to a “Second Coming” is Hebrews 9:28:
“So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.”
This was directed to the Jews of the beginning Church era, those Jews who were going through the first tribulation, the “Baptism of Fire. Christ would appear the second time to them that look for Him. That was an exclusive group of Jews, the believers — the remnant of Paul’s day, who remained faithful to Christ in spite of all the wiles of the devil — they endured to the end.

Christ appeared only to those who looked for Him. It would be a time of salvation for those Jews who overcame, who endured to the end. The first time He came, He bore the sins of many. The next time He came, there would be no sin to bear, only salvation for the remnant.

Right after Jesus pronounced doom upon the nation of the Israel, the “house of the Jews,”
Matt. 23:38 “Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.”
He said,
Matt. 23:39 “For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.”

He wasn’t speaking to us; He was giving those people of that day and time an ultimatum: “If you want to see me when I come back, then believe on me, believe who I am. When He came that second time, He appeared only to them who looked for Him. That was about the year of AD70.

The words of Jesus in Luke 21:22 are clear: All things that are written shall be fulfilled. He didn’t qualify the things that were written. ALL things means ALL things. Many promises weren’t fulfilled to the Jews — to their liking. But they were fulfilled, one way or another, because the covenants were NOT unconditional.

cpmac
www.tribulationhoax.com

Originally Posted by cpmac

Jerry:
The Great Tribulation was prophesied by Jesus in Matthew 24. But many say that it is yet future. To which generation was that supposed to happen? What do you say?

The context is pretty clear that it will be the last generation before Christ's return - the generation of Israel that will see His return. Also, in the context, it refers to Israel coming together as a nation - through the figure of the fig tree.

Matthew 24:29-34 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

The Bible is pretty clear that Jesus is going to return, and THEN REIGN FROM JERUSALEM FOR 1000 YEARS. No matter your theology - it is pretty obvious that Jesus is not reigning from Jerusalem yet.

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Jerry:
Give me one example anywhere in the Bible where "this generation" is some future generation, and not the generation being addressed.

The Bible is pretty clear that Jesus is going to return, and THEN REIGN FROM JERUSALEM FOR 1000 YEARS. No matter your theology - it is pretty obvious that Jesus is not reigning from Jerusalem yet.

I'm not too familiar with the Bible. Where does it say that?


cpmac
www.tribulationhoax.com

Jerry: is this past or future?

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

cpmac
www.tribulationhoax.com

Question: When was (or will be) Satan cast out of heaven?

cpmac
www.tribulationhoax.com

Jesus' 1000 year reign from Jerusalem is prophesied in Revelation 20 - and the context is after the Tribulation and the battle of Armageddon. There are other passages that speak of the Messiah ruling.

Romans 11:26 is referring to the return of Christ, when all Israel shall see the Messiah face to face and be saved. That verse refers to it as a mystery. Revelation 10 (which I believe occurs near the end of the Tribulation period) speaks of that mystery being ended.

Satan already fell from Heaven - but Revelation 12 teaches he has yet to be cast out of Heaven. He still has access to accuse the brethren before the Lord - until the midpoint of the Tribulation period when he is cast out.

Jesus' 1000 year reign from Jerusalem is prophesied in Revelation 20 - and the context is after the Tribulation and the battle of Armageddon.
There are other passages that speak of the Messiah ruling.

Romans 11:26 is referring to the return of Christ, when all Israel shall
see the Messiah face to face and be saved. That verse refers to it as a
mystery. Revelation 10 (which I believe occurs near the end of the
Tribulation period) speaks of that mystery being ended.

Satan already fell from Heaven - but Revelation 12 teaches he has yet to
be cast out of Heaven. He still has access to accuse the brethren before
the Lord - until the midpoint of the Tribulation period when he is cast out.

Jesus' 1000 year reign from Jerusalem is prophesied in Revelation 20 - and the context is after the Tribulation and the battle of Armageddon.
There are other passages that speak of the Messiah ruling.

First, the "thousand years" are not necessarily 1000 years but an unknown multiple
of 1000. In Strong's Concordance, the Greek word is "Chilioi; plur. of uncert. affin;"
meaning it could be a multiple of 1000, like 2000, or 3000, etc. The thousand years
is undoubtedly the length of time the Church is to be on earth, because just afterward
Satan is loosed out of the bottomless pit, and released for a short time to cause chaos
upon the earth. Since the Bible is seldom precise, and we are still near to the
2000 year mark, we could be in the last years of the Church Age, the world as we
know it. However, there are no other positive indications, so we cannot know.

Dispensational Bible scholars, of course, would argue that "when God says 1000, He
means 1000, and because it it repeated six times in this chapter, the one thousand
years is definitely a literal 1000 years. But what they never mention in this
argument is Revelation 2:10

"Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer:
behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried;
and ye shall have tribulation ten days..."

Would you like to see how some of the futuristic scholars interpret the "ten days?"
The late Dr. J. Vernon McGee writes: "There were ten intense persecutions by ten
Roman Emperors..." Ht then lists ten Roman Emperoros, "Nero, Domitian, Trajan,"
etcetera, and gives the number of years that each ruled, which totaled up to
about 71 years. Read it in (Thru the Bible, vol. 5, page 906) In chapter 20, a
"thousand years" must equal a literal 1000 years, but in this chapter, 10 days
could be as long as 71 years! How's that for literal interpretation?

If one must be a literal 1000 years, then the other must be a literal 10 days,
we simply can't choose to be literal only when it suits our agenda. The best we
can surmise is that one represents a long period of time, the other represents
a short period of time.

The theory that Revelation 20 happens after the Tribulation is conjecture of
the wildest sort, because that future seven year Tribulation is not mentioned
in Scripture. It is fabricated from several unrelated, and badly misinterpreted,
Scripture verses. That it happened after the Tribulation is true, but that
tribluation happened in the past, ending about AD70. It was the Tribulation
spoken of by Jesus on Matthew 24. God used Satan as the Great Deceiver of nations
to gather all nations (the nations which made up the Roman Empire) together
to judge the wicked unbelievers of Israel. Revelation 20 began just after that:

V1 "And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit
and a great chain in his hand." There being no such thing as a literal "bottomless
pit," and no literal chain can hold a spirit being like the devil, these are
obviously symbolic. V2 "And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which
is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, V3 And cast him into the
bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive
the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that
he must be loosed a little season."

That tells the present-time story of the devil. He is not able to decieve the
nations any more until the end of the Church Age. That doesn't mean he can't
cause trouble for Christians in the meantime.

Andwhile Satan is incarcerated, the following is going on:

V4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:
and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and
for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image,
neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they
lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
V5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

This is the first resurrection.

What is the "first resurrection?" All of the above!

Verse 4 and 5 speak of three separate groups of people.

The first group:
John saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given unto them.

The second group:
John saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and
for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image,
neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they
lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The third group:
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

The first group, I would suggest, is the Church. Revelation 5:10 "And hast made
us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."

The second group is obviously in heaven. John only saw the "souls" of them. They
reign in heaven with Jesus Christ. These, I am sure, survived the first tribulation,
the Baptism of Fire, which ended just before the great tribulation began. The beast
was the devil, in the form of the Roman Empire.

Just who the third group, the "rest of the dead" are is still a bit of a mystery
to me. Which people are they the rest of? I would guess that they are the deceased
from the first group, the Church. Being part of the Christian Church, they reign
on earth, pass on, and are replaced by other Christian. This goes on throughout
the "thousand years."

Anyway, they are dead, and will remain dead throughout the Church Age. I think
that they will be part of the general resurrection at the end of time.
V6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the
second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and
shall reign with him a thousand years." The "first resurrection" is, without a
doubt, acceptance of salvation in Christ. It is a spiritual resurrection. Every
Gentile is born dead in sin, and brought to life by Christ.

Romans 11:26 is referring to the return of Christ, when all Israel shall
see the Messiah face to face and be saved. That verse refers to it as a
mystery. Revelation 10 (which I believe occurs near the end of the
Tribulation period) speaks of that mystery being ended.

Rom. 11:26 "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall
come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:"
Rom. 11:27 "For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

The dispensational interpretation of this passage is a cataclysmic disaster. It
leaves millions hanging in mid-air, wondering just who is "all Israel." As the
theory is taught, there is no intelligent answer. "All Israel" means All Israel.
Futurists refer to the present day Israel as "Israel." In the future, there will
be a "remnant" of Israel, so they say. But today, and ever since the house of
David, meaning the nation of Israel, has been desolated, the vast majority of
"Israelites" have been in unbelief. Can they somehow be saved? One might hope
so, but I see nothing like that written in Scripture. Some scholars, apparently
struggling with this same problem, have concluded that God has a different
covenant with Jews, and they are saved without the need to believe in Christ.
This is the kind of god-awful heresy futurism has spawned. The Bible plainly
states that "Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: but
he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also" (1John 2:23). The Bible
was written by the Jews, to the Jews, and for the Jews. So that verse applies
to the Jews as well as the Gentiles. Yet, many scholars prefer to ignore it,
rather than admit a contradiction in their doctrine.

Paul says that "There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn
away ungodliness from Jacob:" Dispensationalists, those "literal interpreters,"
are looking for this at Christ's Second Coming. That is another ungodly doctrine,
and heretical to the bone! They all fail (deliberately, I think) to see that Paul says,
"...as it is written..." So he's quoting an Old Testament prophet, who wrote that
several hunbdred years before the Deliverer came out of Sion. But fools and heretics
would give Christ no credit for accomplishing on the cross exactly what He came to do,
bring salvation and righteousness to Israel. Just because Israel, for the most part,
did not accept it, doesn't mean it didn't happen. To say that Jesus must come back
to save Israel is saying that He failed the first time to take away their sins.

If the dispensational teaching is true, and all Isreal, even unbelieving Israel,
is saved when Christ returns, then logically, everyone who ever died in sin will
be saved in the future. So, be prepared to move over and make room for Hitler,
Stalin, and Osama Bin Laden --- if dispensational teaching is true.

Satan already fell from Heaven - but Revelation 12 teaches he has yet to
be cast out of Heaven. He still has access to accuse the brethren before
the Lord - until the midpoint of the Tribulation period when he is cast out.

According to Scofield, Satan fell from heaven even before the six days of Creation,
which is quite a trick, because the Bible says he was created on a certain day.
But Scofield was an evolutionist. If Satan fell from heaven, but is yet to be
cast out of heaven, who let him in that he has to be kicked out again? It doesn't
make sense.

Revelation indeed speaks of Satan being cast out of heaven, but by what magic has
any dispensationalist been able to establish that time as the "mid-point" of the
Tribulation? If we stay away from future-minded Bible expositors, and stick with
the Bible, we can find out when Satan was cast out of heaven, when the Great
Tribulation started, when Old Testament Israel was taken into heaven, and when New
Testament Israel was raptured; sort of killing four birds with one shotgun blast,
as it were.

DANIEL 12:
V1 "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for
the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never
was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people
shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book."

According to Dispensationalists, the Tribulation begins, and Michael stands up,
but he doesn't do anything. I suppose he stands up to get a better view of the
Antichrist whipping the tar out of the children of Daniel's people, the first
century Jews.

Not quite. Michael stands up for a definite reason, as we shall see. And it was
at this time that all the Jews who were found written in the book, were delivered.
And at that same time all Old Testament Israelites were resurrected, both good
and bad:

V2 "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to
everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."



One of the clues as to the timing is given in this verse:
V4 "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the
time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased."
The book of Daniel was to be sealed until the time of the end. If we say that
Christ came to earth about the time of the end, we won't be far off. He quoted
from the book of Daniel in Matthew 24, and meant all who heard to understand,
so the book of Daniel was unsealed at that time.

Revelation 12 clinches the time:

V7 "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon;
and the dragon fought and his angels,"
V8 "And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
V9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and
Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and
his angels were cast out with him."
Now we know why Michael stood up.

Here is the clincher:
V10 "And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and
strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the
accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God
day and night."

"Now is come salvation..." This obviously happened after the cross, and actually
just after the first Tribulation. The kingdom of God was set up, and Christ received
all the power in the universe (Romans 1:4).

That "loud voice" must have come from the Jews in heaven. They talked about the
"accuser of our brethren." He would no longer have access into heaven to accuse
the Jews.

So, Satan is not accusing anyone today, at least not before the heavenly throne.
He's been in the bottonless pit for hearly 2000 years now.

According to the Bible, and not to dispensational teaching...

There is no future "seven year Tribulation."
All Old Testament Jews are in heaven, the twelve tribes are ruled by Jesus Christ
and His disciples.
All the believing New Testament Jews have been raptured into heaven.
Salvation came to all of Israel. It was free for the taking. Some didn't take it.
The kingdom of God was set up.
Satan was cast out of heaven for the first and last time.
After AD70, there is no future for Israel.
In fact, there is no Israel, as far as Scripture is concerned.
All "Jews" today are psuedo-Jews.

Wow - there is no arguing or debating with someone who refuses to take the Bible literally and at face value. Whatever anyone says and shows from the Bible on the subject, you will explain away again. These are my last words in this debate with you - as it is pointless. I will gladly debate with someone who cares about God's Word and is willing to debate what it actually states - not symbolizing it and explaining it away.

[Easy E]

Ditto on the "wow".

I guess my question is: If Jesus is reigning right now, why is he doing such a horrible job?

That is the point of the 1000 reign, correct? Or did you not get that when you read verses like Zecariah 14:9, Luke 1:32,33 and Jer 3:17, etc. Etc. ETC? and Guess What - Those aren't the only ones.