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#31
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I could say the same for just about ANY translation of the inspired Greek and Hebrew......
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#32
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The truth is that the KJV translators were not receiving direct revelation from God as the original writers were. They were TRANSLATING scripture. If they were receiving direct revelation from God like the original writers they wouldn't have needed any manuscripts to translate from. They wasted their time consulting manuscripts if God was speaking to them directly on what to translate. And they wouldn't have included alternate readings in the marginal notes. They collated manuscripts and analyzed the Greek, Hebrew, and other languages to know how and what to translate. When they came to the words "ma genomia", they did not translate them literally because it would have been an awkward rendering in English. Ma genomia is literally "let it not be". But they recognized this was a Greek idiom. And when dealing with idioms you don't translate them literally unless that same idiom exists in the target language. You translate the expression. And in this case the expression was "never, never". And in English the KJV translators determined that the strongest words to convey that expression were "God forbid". End of story. That was the point. But you'll never get it in a million years because you have already crossed the threshold of twisting scripture in order to support your racist ideology of pushing Anglo Culture upon the whole world in order for them to be saved, which is a racist ideology and would never work anyways. Quote:
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Here's the facts: 1. When God spoke His words to the original writers, He did not speak in English to the Apostles and Prophets. He spoke in Hebrew and Greek. 2. He promised to preserve these original words, which were given in Hebrew and Greek. 3. Notice he promised to preserve WORDS, not manuscripts, not ink and paper, which accounts for why we do not have the Original Autographs. We don't need them anyways because... 4. God preserved these Inspired words (yes Inspired means God-breathed, if it they aren't God breathed than these words are dead words) by providentially guiding His people (Ps. 78) to tirelessly copy His words over and over again and pass them down from generation to generation. 5. God not only preserved His inspired words through the constant copying of Greek and Hebrew manuscripts but also... 6. ...the TRANSLATING of those original Greek, Hebrew, and yes some Aramaic (do your homework) words into other languages, such as Latin, Syriac, Gothic, etc. 7. In 1602-1611, God providentially guided the KJV translators to culminate these different preserved manuscripts into an English translation - the KJV. 8. In the late 1800s, Scrivener took Beza's 5th edition of the Greek NT (TR), which was the primary Greek text used by the KJV translators, and edited it in only 190 place. For these 190 places, he collated 18 different editions of the Textus Receptus to find readings that mirrored the exact wording of the KJV. 9. Therefore, what Scrivener produced was a Greek New Testament that is an exact Greek representation of what the KJV says in English. In regards to the Hebrew Masoretic text, one only needs to see the articles by Dr. Waite, provided on this website by the Diligent to see the meticulous care of copying God's words in the OT by the orthodox Jews. My point is that God promised to preserve His words. Today the prominent Bible that He has placed His stamp of approval upon when it comes to perfection is the KJV. But before 1611, those same Inspired, Preserved, Infallible words in other languages (just as God promised - Ps. 12:6-7). And you can see those words represented in Greek in Scrivener's text, and in Hebrew in the Masoretic text. The point is that God did not wait until 1611 to fulfill His promise to preserve his words, because according to Ps. 12:6-7 His promise was to preserve His words in EVERY generation. Quote:
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#33
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#34
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"God forbid," translated verbatim into Spanish, wouldn't make any sense. Therefore, since the Bible should at least make linguistic sense in the receptor language, it is simply ignorant to think that forcing the Spanish language to say something that makes no sense to a Spanish-speaking person is going to do any good.
I think I almost fully agree with Hmo. Rodriguez; the KJB translators used dozens of different versions and translations to bring about the Bible, and though they were operating under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, He still used those different sources. Ignoring any trustworthy source while translating when facing such a difficult barrier as language is foolhardy. In Spanish that's not an issue as God has already provided His word in that language, even before the KJB was finished, but any language being translated into anew must invariably use all sources, and be subject to the direct leading of the Holy Spirit, in order to be considered trustworthy. Another thing: the Bible is given by inspiration, not inspired. There's a difference there. |
#35
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Hi Folks,
While the conversation is a bit heated, and would be nice to be toned down, there are two factual tweakings I'd like to make. It is common to call the language of the OT Aramaic (sections in Daniel and Ezra) and the NT texts Syriac (eg. Peshitta and Old Syriac MSS). Even the OT Peshitta I think is called Aramaic while the NT Peshitta is called Syriac. With Aramaic possibly being a subset of Syriac in language theory, the terms do have a lot of overlap. I'm not saying this necessarily is sensible, but it is scholarly language consensus and has nothing to do with e.g. recognizing the usage of Hebraisti == Hebrew in the NT. I can't see anything wrong with referring to "sections of Daniel and Ezra being in Aramaic" since that is what their Chaldee dialect is often called. Since Aramaic is used today, culturally in some lands as the main language, and by Orthodox Jews in studies and by Eastern Christians in their Bible text, there is no warrant to insist on banishing the word. As for Scrivener's Greek text being an exact representation of the King James Bible, "exact" is a bit too strong. The Johannine Comma is not a counter-example, as Scrivener's italics was only in his Cambridge Paragraph Bible, a different work. However I have seen a couple of cases where English King James Bible information may not be in the Greek text. "Almost exact" - fine. The word "exact" is rarely applicable across languages. Shalom, Steven |
#36
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#37
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If the KJB is perfectly the text (readings) and translation (sense), and the Word of God cannot be perfectly rendered by the above two criteria in other languages, then clearly our long term goal should be to get people to learn English and use the KJB. You certainly are not going to get a perfect text and translation even by using all the sources including the original languages in concert. Since you are going to get an imperfect foreign Bible, why not move toward teaching the natives English and give them the perfect Bible? |
#38
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Hi Folks,
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Shalom, Steven Avery |
#39
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In this response, I aim to present things which would be edifying/instructional to the general reader. Note, “KJB” means King James Bible. I do not say “KJV” as though it is only one of many versions in the world to be used. I say “KJB” because I think it is the Bible for everyone in the world.
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You know full well that only half the Bible was on earth when Psalm 12 was written, so you cannot say that God’s perfect Word existed on Earth in the days of King David. The only perfect Word that existed was what had been written to that time. And even if there was a text-perfect single collection of scrolls of the OT, we know that the entire Bible was never perfect in one form until 1611, nor was the single perfect OT library accessible for many years (e.g. after 70 A.D.) Yet we had many faithful copies, wherein were scattered the true readings, which required a process of gathering, as is shown by the Bomberg printing and by Protestant Bibles, and finally by the KJB. I believe that the Gomez Spanish Bible is Scripture and is part of God’s provision, etc., but I think that the KJB is overtaking and replacing it. And it is really not wise to try and make new foreign versions now, but to shift focus onto having the KJB as international standard (a long term goal, perhaps not immediately viable in many cases). Quote:
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You are assuming that the margin notes render the actual text of the KJB as imperfect. You are allowing that there are other possible and valid translations WHICH STILL PERSIST. I am showing that the last time there was a possible valid English translation outside the KJB was when the Geneva Version was still being used by some poor Christian. That must have been over two centuries ago. Quote:
[quote]translate the expression. And in this case the expression was "never, never".[/[quote] No that is not the perfect Word of God. That might be a possible translation, but it is imperfect. It also constitutes an error, because if you believe the KJB is perfect, you would not allow “never, never" to be Scripture in English. And you are writing in English using English words here. Persisting in wanting to allow “never, never" as a form of Scripture in English, as though that was what Paul was really (or could be) saying is a dangerous doctrine. Quote:
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[quote]all of a sudden I'm not a true Bible-believer[quote] To be KJB-only means you believe it is a perfect text and that it is a perfect translation. You might believe the Scripture, but it is not “King James Bible only”. If it is not KJBO, then you do not have a final knowledge of every reading, because readings vary between versions, and it cannot be final knowledge of the translation/sense, because any word outside the KJB has a different meaning, and with other languages, many times slight variations in meaning are there because the other language is not identical to English. Quote:
“But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.” (Job 32:8). Inspiration must mean “spirit in”. God must have put His words through His spirit in the man [see postscript], and the process of writing out the Scripture was by this being present in the penman. This can be seen where the prophet spoke and the scribe wrote, or where the apostle wrote the letter with his own hand. At the end of the inspiration process, the written words were inspired, and the Bible in English retains this nature in its words today. [quote]I asked: Do other good foreign translations have the degree of perfection as is found in the very use of the spelling, punctuation, words and grammar of the KJB? Answer: If they don't, they can. That's what TRANSLATING is all about.[quote] Of course no translation is perfect like the KJB is, but the point is that we cannot make another perfect translation. The Gomez has faults. Therefore, it must be better to encourage people to learn English, and to teach them English, so that they can use the perfect KJB. Quote:
2. Where is the perfect Bible or testament in Hebrew or Greek that has exactly the right readings, and the right meaning associated to words, so that the word for lapwing is not said to be a hoopoe, or the word for Easter is not said to be passover, etc. Answer: NO WHERE. 3. Since the Word of God is perfectly preserved in English, why would God still need to retain the Hebrew and Greek where there is no certain presentation of the perfect Word of God in exact extant form? Answer: NO NEED TO GOD. 4. Why would Christians need Hebrew and Greek for their doctrine, teaching or Bible study (other than to prove that the KJB is right)? Answer: NO NEED TO US. 5. Did God fail to get His word into the language of the Gentiles > English perfectly, so that He has to keep Hebrew and Greek as a failsafe/back up/repository of His “real” Scripture? Answer: NO. 6. Would God be failing His promise if He was preserving the Scripture perfectly in English for the world? Answer: NO. Quote:
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Is my “the Gospel = the Word” statement error? Quote:
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[quote]Notice he promised to preserve WORDS, not manuscripts, not ink and paper, which accounts for why we do not have the Original Autographs. We don't need them anyways because...[quote] Yes, and we have many translations made, e.g. in the Reformation. [quote]God preserved these Inspired words ... by providentially guiding His people (Ps. 78) to tirelessly copy His words over and over again and pass them down from generation to generation.[quote] But there was a point where single manuscripts were not perfect. However, if taken collectively, the perfect Word could be discerned, which was a process which manifested especially between 1517 and 1611. The KJB being supersuccessionary to the Bomberg and TR editions. Quote:
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[quote]The Bible does not teach that the Great Commission is to promote Anglo-phone culture and teach English. The Great Commission is to preach the Gospel.[quote] The Bible does allow for Anglo-Protestantism to be promoted, and using English to preach to the KJB to the world fulfils that part of the great commission. However, nations need to be taught, and this means having a model. Clearly, elements from Anglophone culture are going to be the best to use, while every nation yet retains its own identity. (We are not banning chop sticks because we think cutlary is better.) Quote:
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The Lord said to pray for labourers, so don’t call the millions of harvesters a “fantasy”. We are entering into the times of restitution. Why let the spirit of antichrist have all the power today? “Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.” (James 5:7). “Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.” (1 Peter 2:12). “And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.” (Rev. 14:16). This is not just a Tribulation prophecy, it is also pre-Tribulation Historicist. “So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.” (Isaiah 59:19). That standard is the KJB for all nations. These are just some of the verses showing the “restitution supersuccessionary doctrine”. Having the KJB for all is in line with that. Quote:
2. The Scripture said it generally would happen, and God is not a liar. 3. Specific verses show it, e.g. “All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.” (Psalm 22:27). Don’t explain away prophecy by saying “in the Millennium”. Quote:
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POSTSCRIPT: I would venture that most foreign translations do not rightly divide between the "spirit" of God and the "Spirit" of God. Furthermore, would the Spanish version specifically be altered in 1 John 5:8 to change "Espíritu" to "espíritu"? Last edited by bibleprotector; 12-06-2008 at 10:26 PM. |
#40
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Also, I'd be careful with Bro. Gomez' Bible...not only did he incorrectly and somewhat underhandedly use the Reina Valera name to apparently give his Bible more credibility, but he's also changed it multiple times as other Spanish-speaking missionaries and translators found error with it. One instance of error in the RVG (ugh!) is that he changed "salúd" in Psalms to "salvacíon." "Salúd" means "good health" or something along that line, while "salvacíon" means spiritual salvation. While at face value that seems to be a good change, remember that David thought his soul and his body were the same thing, and he had no idea that he needed spiritual "salvacíon." This is a blatant doctrinal error that would have never happened if they had stuck with the 1865 TRUE Reina Valera. Last edited by MC1171611; 12-07-2008 at 05:54 AM. |
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