[greenbear]

I was also thinking about the idea on another thread about how the circumstances in people's lives when they come to Christ aren't always neat and tidy, they can be very troublesome and difficult. I realized that we are born into certain circumstances, maybe our family is Baptist, maybe Pentecostal, these are the people we know, and opportunities arise to serve the Lord within that organization. We're just born into this world the way it already is, we don't get to start everything from scratch the way we'd like it to be according to the perfect pattern. If a man is appointed as the head pastor of a mainline Baptist church, or any other denomination, and faithfully preaches the gospel of grace light on legalistic tendencies, or in the case of some denominations, they actually preach the gospel at all, and people get saved then Praise God! Nothing in this world is going to be done just the way we think it should be done and God can still work through imperfect circumstances. Anyway, just trying to be more reasonable and realistic. What I wrote before is what I believe things should be like, not necessarily the way we as individual christians find them to be in reality.

[PaulB]

Now that many of you have made it clear that we are not commanded to tithe it seems to paint a whole new picture to me in the realm of giving. If I tithe because I am commanded to do so I don’t really feel like I am giving out of the abundance of my heart but rather because it is expected of me. It is a bit like when a child is told to tidy his room (as you mothers will know!), if he/she does it to please you then you know that it is genuine (that is if they are not secretly seeking something in return that they know that you will give to them because they did it!). but if a child is under compulsion to keep that room tidy then genuine gratitude becomes all the harder to notice. It becomes a bit like a form of employment where we do it because it is expected of us rather than because we want to.

Jassy you make some very good points and I can see from your post that it has been a first hand experience for you. I have belonged to a couple of Pentecostal churches that have hammered tithing as a doctrine to the extent that you would have thought that you were sitting in a banking seminar for its staff.

I have experienced personal rebuke for being in debt with cc/loans (that is when I was in that position a few years ago with a wife and baby to provide for). I worked 6 days a week and spent many nights away from home often working 15 hours a day and sleeping rough at night because of my job. But what hurt me the most was the fact that after being personally rebuked for being in debt and then blamed for being in that position for “Not tithing” all of these ministers were living in luxury, going on expensive holidays and driving fancy cars. And to top if off – the stress on tithing was their way of dealing with the debt that the church had with the bank because of the massive building project that it had taken on.

They preached that you’ve got to have “faith” and that to be in debt was a sign of a lack of it, then they would batter us with the Malachi verses and just about everything else that they could use to get the offering back filled to the max. The churches where we encountered this were both brand new multimillion £££££$$$$$ complexes (one with a gymnasium and both with $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ spent on the development of the “music ministry”. If that wasn’t enough I don’t know how much was spent on them having trips paid for so that a number of them could go to Toronto in order to bring the “Toronto blessing” back to the UK.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ was spent on media advertising to push a self styled promotion known as the “JIM Challenge” (Jesus in me). It was all about buck and growth for bucks and popularity as I could see it. People didn’t matter, it was full auditoriums that counted. It was an awful time for us as a family and ended up in us moving on but the trouble was the church that we moved to was hardly any different.

Within one year we had to endure the same series preached twice on the Christians responsibility to tithe and what was worse was the fact that these sermons weren’t even the work of the pastor, he printed them off from one of these “church growth” websites (pastors.com) I think!

I also take Amanda’s point that these people will have to answer to God for the heavy burdens that they lay upon men’s backs and do nothing to lift it and that not all pastors are out to fleece their flocks. But you can see why I raised the question in the first place and why answers to questions like these are very practical and important to the common people.

Thanks for your responses

God bless

PaulB

Ps. Where is Fredoheaven? I haven’t heard from you in ages! Can you contact me on Paulonline@fsmail.net ?

[Amanda S.]

Bro. Paul,

I certainly can see why you would feel that way!

Everyone has baggage and experiences that cause them to form their ideas and make them wary and cautious. It is important to remember that when dealing with new Christians especially. Thank you for the reminder.

But I do feel however that after years of growing in the Lord we should try and put aside these fears in light of God's Word and even if cautiously do our best to obey the principles set forth in the Bible.

In my own life and dealings with people through the years I have learned to have more grace and mercy when dealing with these issues. It usually doesn't take very long to discern a soft heart wanting to do right (as you described you and your wife's situation above) and one who wants to use their liberty in Christ to live as they please. While I don't condemn, ostracize, scorn or any other such harsh words the latter, I do think it is futile to deal with them as their minds are made up and they will use the lack of Scripture to support their position. I personally have not come across too many of these people in church, however I am sure they are there.

If I tithe because I am commanded to do so I don’t really feel like I am giving out of the abundance of my heart but rather because it is expected of me.

Absolutely right.

Did you read the article I posted? What was your thoughts on that?

[CKG]

CKG original comment - Nowhere does it say Abraham was commanded to tithe

Brother Presswood - I agree, which confirms that tithing is written on the heart and not just the law.

Scripture mentions no such thing. If tithing is written on the heart then why is there no record of people like Noah or Isaac ever tithing?

CKG original comment - and he didn't tithe of all that he had; only of the spoils of the battle (Hebrews 7:4).

Brother Presswood - The account in Genesis says that he gave "tithes of all." The passage in Hebrews merely states that he did, indeed, give a tenth of the spoils, which were included in "all" mentioned in Genesis.

Genesis 14:20 states that he gave tithes of all. All of what? It doesn’t say. It doesn’t say he gave tithes of all of his possessions. How do we know what all he gave tithes of? By comparing scripture with scripture. Hebrews 7:4 clarifies this by stating it was all of the spoils of the battle.

CKG original comment - Jacob vowed a vow to tithe, but there is no scriptural record that he ever carried out the vow.

Brother Presswood - There certainly is no reason to believe that he didn't keep his vow.

We can only go by what the Scripture says. If a person wants to believe Jacob fulfilled the vow then that’s their opinion, but it can’t be substantiated with Scripture.


CKG original comment - It's interesting that twice (Romans 4 and Galatians 3) Paul (the apostle to the Gentiles, the one to whom was given the fullest understanding of the church) mentions Abraham as the main example for justification by faith, but when he talks about giving he never mentions Abraham's tithing to Melchizedek as an example for the church.

Brother Presswood - If you believe, as do I, that Paul is the author of Hebrews, then he did use Abraham as an example

Who authored the book of Hebrews certainly makes for an interesting topic, but since the Bible doesn’t say who it’s author is I don’t get concerned about it. I’m satisfied it is inspired by God and it’s authorship has no bearing on my understanding of it. As far as Hebrews 7 goes, that passage of scripture has nothing to do with tithing in the church age. Tithing is only mentioned as part of a comparison between Melchizedek and the Levitical priesthood. In Hebrews 8:1 the writer sums up what has been said:

Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens

This verse clarifies the writer's purpose for bringing up the subject of Abraham and Melchizedek—to show that we have a greater high priest. He wasn't teaching tithing to the church either directly or indirectly.

[Samuel]

Samuel, I hope you don't mind me borrowing your term "denominational monoliths" but it was really too good to pass up. I've never heard of Primitive Baptist churches.

Not at all I do that ever once in a while, come up with something different that is.

Not a lot of people do know about Primitive Baptists, There is really no organization. Each Church is autonomous, and some of them do not even associate with the others. It depends on their acceptance, of the other Churches by-laws. Sort like an every man for himself denomination, but they really do not consider themselves a denomination either, no Bible for that either. Its like if the Bible says it ok, if the Bible doesn't say it, then its not.

Its mostly a deep South Church, a lot of them right here in NC. Some have grouped together and formed a loose non official organization, and have a district meeting once a year.

[greenbear]

Samuel

Sort like an every man for himself denomination, but they really do not consider themselves a denomination either, no Bible for that either. Its like if the Bible says it ok, if the Bible doesn't say it, then its not.

Yeah, grew up in agnosic family, never considered Jesus as a real historical figure not once in my life, met a SDA at work, believed Jesus was an historical figure, read lots of EG WHITE, couldn't cut it, blood sugar issues require meat, always found a reason to buy something on Saturday, left SDA in defeat, went to Charismatic church, failed at speaking in tongues, slain in the spirit, given spirit of repentance, cried non-stop for two days, missed work, many other like experiences, finally prayed for understanding of Bible, shortly thereafter met husband, he taught me what's what from the Bible, actually started reading Bible and understanding Bible, realized KJV only one not corrupt, went to many different churches, all say different things, no 2 alike, not rocket science they can't all be right, most use corrupt bibles, decided to stick with Bible, not a lot of contact with Christians for 15 years, came on this forum, actually find some people we agree with on most things because they teach from Bible as final authority, find others that want me to believe them even if it's not in Bible, I don't believe them so I am not mature Christian, still learning fine art of getting along with christians they are so different.

[Samuel]

greenbear.

I can sympathize with the Charismatic experience. I was married to a woman for 20 years, who's whole family was Charismatic. I have been called the Devil, rebuked, and cursed so many times you would not believe.

As a result of that it has left me with a really critical spirit, sort of like a scar from an old cut. I have prayed about many times, but then again in today's world it might just prove to be a blessing, as long as I keep it under control.

As for getting along with all Christians "Good Luck", that is especially if you don't just accept every cockamamie idea that comes down the pipe.

[greenbear]

Samuel,

I understand your experience with charismatics. I believe my main hurt comes from the legalism of the SDA church, the years of torment believing I could not be saved. Then in the "real" churches seeing salvation by grace through faith alone offered with one hand while at the same time force-feeding works based religion with the other hand. And if you disagree then you are suspect. You are so right, though. A critical spirit is hypocrisy and keeps Christ's love from flowing through us. (I'm not speaking of you, but me, you have shown love.) We end up as devoid of love as a Pharisee. I can't seem to remember... I must keep my eyes on Christ.

In His love,

Jennifer

[Samuel]

greenbear.

My son had a friend who is mixed up in the SDA. In fact he has been convinced to go somewhere else several times, and attended a Baptist church for several years.

But now has reverted to the SDA again, I guess some people just can't accept Salvation unless it is filled with works, but the problem there is no Salvation by works.

He even brought me some DVD's here awhile back he wanted me to watch. I watched them, then told him what was wrong with them, he is still attending SDC.

[greenbear]

Samuel,

It is all about the heart. Can we admit that we are what God says we are? If we cannot, then we will believe there is something we can do to be like Him.