[Luke]

I'll be quick... It's probably already said, but I have never heard of any hyperdispensationalist claiming that baptism saves, and if you aren't baptised, you aren't saved. Hypers or Grace Believers don't even recognise baptism as an ordinance.

you may be thinking of Landmarkists, which are close to Church of Christ in practice.

[Winman]

The worst someone can do is post a reply. Without the force of moderation I don't see how anyone can bully someone else here. All they can do is what you can do -- post what is on their mind. They can not make you reply and they can not silence you.

You do not have to respond to anything you don't want to. You are not expected or required to provide personal details and information if you don't want to. There is only one forum moderator here: me. I do not require people to post details about themselves. But just as you don't have to, others are free to ask for those details and question why someone doesn't want to provide them.

That being said, I think it's ridiculous to imply uncertainly about salvation based on how much (if any) personal information someone is willing to provide on a public internet forum. It is equally absurd to imply uncertainty over someone's salvation because they don't divide the book of Acts the way someone else does. This is a digital place; the rules of engagement are not the same here as they would be in a "real life" setting like a church.

And the complaints about moderation on this forum come from all sides. A few days ago someone called me on the phone (yes, really) and complained that Bibleprotector is "running the forum." Someone else went off in a huff because Bro. Parrish is running the forum. And others complain that George is "the forum." The common theme here is that some people complain about forum moderation when they don't get what they want and the person "running the forum" is the person they are in a tizzy over.

I'm not some babysitter. I have my limits on what I will allow and I do ban when I think it is warranted, but I generally don't want to get in the way of adults talking with each other. There are lots of forums on the net. You might be able to find one that is moderated exactly the way you like -- and if not, you could always start one yourself.

Brandon, thanks for your reply. But I am a little tired of Bro George and Chette especially attacking people here. I don't see how anyone can consider this Christian behaviour. It's not Christian behaviour. And you will know them by their fruits.

I have lost respect for Bro George. He thinks he knows everything and is the only person who understands scripture. I would absolutely disagree with him, I think his post on Rightly Dividing the Book of Acts is FULL of error. And I have posted many scriptures that clearly contradict his false teaching. But you know, I know these self-righteous types, nothing you can say or do will get through to them. They are so full of themselves, so arrogant and sure of themselves, that even the scriptures will not convince them of their errors.

To say a person does not need to understand scripture is so ridiculous as to be absolutely absurd. I cannot believe any intelligent person would say such a thing.

Why are we instructed to STUDY the scriptures? Why are told to compare scriptures? So we can understand them of course.

And to say we have no need to listen to teachers is also absurd. I got saved because I heard a preacher who understands salvation explain to me as a little boy how Jesus died for me on the cross and rose from the dead, and how I could pray to Jesus and ask for forgiveness and everlasting life.

1 Cor 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.


I don't even know why I am writing this, I know that absolutely nothing I or anyone else can say or do will reach these pompous self-righteous people. They are so incredibly self-deceived and do not realize it.

I have been here about six months. I have probably seen at least half a dozen people get banned, and most because they had a run in with Bro George. Many times Bro George was correct, but many times he was wrong. He cannot see that. He cannot conceive or allow himself to believe he is capable of error. He can look at a verse like John 7:37-39 which absolutely destroys his teaching (not what the scriptures really say) on Acts and completely ignore it. You aren't going to help someone like that.

I've said my piece, I don't know if I'll be back or not. I cannot stand these constant attacks on people who disagree with Bro George or Chette. You are right Brandon, people don't have to post, people can move on. And as long as you have these two here, that is going to be frequent.

[peopleoftheway]

Originally Posted by Winman

Brandon, thanks for your reply. But I am a little tired of Bro George and Chette especially attacking people here. I don't see how anyone can consider this Christian behaviour. It's not Christian behaviour. And you will know them by their fruits.

I have lost respect for Bro George. He thinks he knows everything and is the only person who understands scripture. I would absolutely disagree with him, I think his post on Rightly Dividing the Book of Acts is FULL of error. And I have posted many scriptures that clearly contradict his false teaching. But you know, I know these self-righteous types, nothing you can say or do will get through to them. They are so full of themselves, so arrogant and sure of themselves, that even the scriptures will not convince them of their errors.

To say a person does not need to understand scripture is so ridiculous as to be absolutely absurd. I cannot believe any intelligent person would say such a thing.

Why are we instructed to STUDY the scriptures? Why are told to compare scriptures? So we can understand them of course.

And to say we have no need to listen to teachers is also absurd. I got saved because I heard a preacher who understands salvation explain to me as a little boy how Jesus died for me on the cross and rose from the dead, and how I could pray to Jesus and ask for forgiveness and everlasting life.

1 Cor 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.


I don't even know why I am writing this, I know that absolutely nothing I or anyone else can say or do will reach these pompous self-righteous people. They are so incredibly self-deceived and do not realize it.

I have been here about six months. I have probably seen at least half a dozen people get banned, and most because they had a run in with Bro George. Many times Bro George was correct, but many times he was wrong. He cannot see that. He cannot conceive or allow himself to believe he is capable of error. He can look at a verse like John 7:37-39 which absolutely destroys his teaching (not what the scriptures really say) on Acts and completely ignore it. You aren't going to help someone like that.

I've said my piece, I don't know if I'll be back or not. I cannot stand these constant attacks on people who disagree with Bro George or Chette. You are right Brandon, people don't have to post, people can move on. And as long as you have these two here, that is going to be frequent.

That above post is a disgrace. You stated in several recent posts how unchristlike you perceive Brother Georges responses to you to be, and yet here you are slandering the man, labelling him a false teacher, pompous, self righteous, deceived.
He has spent weeks showing you truth, you have spent weeks going round and round in circles, taking scripture out of context. taking offence at being admonished, you were never labelled pompous, self-righteous or a false teacher, you were simply put right on WHO was being addressed with scripture, you refused to see it, you refuse instruction, you refuse correction. I have seen several occasions where Brother George has been shown scripture in a different context and he has embraced it.

We are too study to show ourselves approved onto God, not harmonize to show ourselves approved unto men.

And to say we have no need to listen to teachers is also absurd. I got saved because I heard a preacher who understands salvation explain to me as a little boy how Jesus died for me on the cross and rose from the dead, and how I could pray to Jesus and ask for forgiveness and everlasting life.

It is NOT absurd at all, you were unsaved!! before the preacher explained the Gospel to you and you accepted Christ, you had no spiritual guidance nor understanding so someone HAD TO show you.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

when you were born again you received the Holy Spirit of God, you could open a Bible with GODS GUIDANCE and learn, of course we can learn from other people, but primarily we must be shown by GOD HIMSELF

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

We will all be put straight at the judgement seat of Christ on these matters,
Whether you post on these forums again is your own concern, I for one pray for you to seek quiet time with GOD and be shown scriptural truth by His Spirit. Sadly I think you are fully persuaded in your own mind that you are right.
Did you ever sit down and think that the reason you feel so offended in this or bullied by this is not because of Brother George or Brother Chette, but the FACT that the Holy Spirit of God is correcting you and you refuse to accept it.
Think about It, pray about it, many times I have been humbled and felt ashamed that my own opinion clouded my judgement on what the truth really WAS yet by Gods Grace he showed me the truth and I accepted it gladly.

[chette777]

What do you call any place where Christians and Non-Christians gather together? and is not a forum a place of virtual gathering? Are we being edified or edifying the body here?

I wasn't making any conclusions of anyone's salvation. but stated that if a person seems to fit into a category and we also hear or read their testimony you can put it together to see if that is anyone's problem in why they can't understand scriptures. it is not just salvation that is an issue in h not understanding the word grieving or quenching the spirit is another, out and out disobedience to God's word is another, and being a babe in Christ is another reason why some people don't understand the scriptures when they should be guided and lead by the Holy ghost to do so.

So after reading someone arguing for 300 plus posts, and if we read a testimony that is not Biblically correct one could conclude if someone is unsaved (not that anyone is), of if they shared on how they were rebuked by their pastor so they left off going to church. We could conclude that either this person is prideful or hurt or in disobedience to God's word. We are to discern these things. anyway that is all I was sharing with BroParish.

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by Winman

To say a person does not need to understand scripture is so ridiculous as to be absolutely absurd. I cannot believe any intelligent person would say such a thing.

I don't know if you're doing this intentionally or not, but it's clear to me what the meaning is -- for example, when we're discussing Bible versions, and someone says the "meaning" is preserved, the Bible believer says that the "words" are preserved. When we study Scripture, we should be concerned with what God says, not with what someone else says God "means." If you do, as you say, "cannot believe any intelligent person would say such a thing," perhaps your first step should be to re-examine your understanding of what is being said. Perhaps they aren't saying what you think they are.

I don't even know why I am writing this, I know that absolutely nothing I or anyone else can say or do will reach these pompous self-righteous people. They are so incredibly self-deceived and do not realize it.

Now, I can either assume you don't know what "self-righteous" means, or you are simply slandering people. Neither Chette or George has exhibited self-righteousness. My guess is you mean something else. Just because you can't convince someone of your position, or that person will not relent, does not mean they are "self-righteous."

I have been here about six months. I have probably seen at least half a dozen people get banned, and most because they had a run in with Bro George.

Now you are making stuff up. Name one person I have banned "because" they had a run-in with any particular person. After all, you are still here. Pam is still here. Bro. Parrish is still here. All of you have "had a run-in" with George at some point. Do you agree now that your claim is unreasonable? George is one of the most active posters here, and it is not surprising that many people who are banned get banned for things they have posted in threads George also posts in. But I do not ban someone just because they lock horns with some particular poster on the forum.

I've said my piece, I don't know if I'll be back or not. I cannot stand these constant attacks on people who disagree with Bro George or Chette. You are right Brandon, people don't have to post, people can move on. And as long as you have these two here, that is going to be frequent.

As I pointed out already, these kinds of attacks on my duties as a moderator come from both sides.... sigh.

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by Luke

I'll be quick... It's probably already said, but I have never heard of any hyperdispensationalist claiming that baptism saves, and if you aren't baptised, you aren't saved. Hypers or Grace Believers don't even recognise baptism as an ordinance.

you may be thinking of Landmarkists, which are close to Church of Christ in practice.

Luke, if I can inject a little levity into a somewhat strained thread, among the general population of "hypers", the fundamentalist groups, not the Bullingerite Universalists or Calvinist Stamites, but among the group I identify myself with none would ever say water baptism saves unless they are on LSD.

The Landmark/Bride churches are what I call Campbellite Baptists: You have to be visible, in a visible church, and baptized in their water with their church letter, otherwise you are not in the body of Christ as they teach the heresy of no "invisible church", that is, a group of plane crash victims in the Pacific on an island cannot be part of the Body if they read the Scriptures and get saved, well, there is no Brider among them them to carry on the "succession". They also teach the heresy that their Church was founded by John the Baptist, which is going to go over real well at the Judgment Seat Of Christ. I've known several ex-members of Dr. Ruckman's church who stated to me they are not Briders by profession but are by practice. This is part of Dr. Ruckman's bitter hatred towards Grace believers, as Briders pretty well have the Campbellite attitude towards any other church. So their attitude towards "hypers" is nothing to marvel at.

Grace and peace brother

Tony

Originally Posted by tonybones2112

I've known several ex-members of Dr. Ruckman's church who stated to me they are not Briders by profession but are by practice. This is part of Dr. Ruckman's bitter hatred towards Grace believers, as Briders pretty well have the Campbellite attitude towards any other church.

Again we see you attacking brother Ruckman on this forum.
I don't think Ruckman hates you. Just because someone has a problem with some of your rotten doctrine doesn't mean they hate you. Smarten up, Tony.

[Winman]

Bro George said

Now let’s see, you did say - ”Calling people names like "false teacher" is very reminicient of the Pharisees, not Jesus.” - DIDN’T YOU? I guess you are EXEMPT from your own condemnation? Hmmm? If I recall, there is a “word” in the Bible for people who SAY ONE THING – BUT DO ANOTHER, you wouldn’t happen to know it, would you?

Bro George, no, I do not think I am exempt. I did not enjoy saying all those things to you, I really did not. But I was trying to give you a little example of how you talk to people on this forum on a fairly regular basis. I could go back and find many posts were you rip fellow believers apart. In this instance, you did not criticize me, you criticized premio58. I don't know him/her, but I have seen you do this to others several times. It really bothers me to see a Christian (or any person) act like this. I had to say something.

And I do not think two wrongs make a right. But I almost laughed when a few here came to your defense. Did they ever criticize you when you went off on a fellow believer?

And I do think these types of posts are bullying. No, you can't really harm someone over the internet, but who wants to get a tongue lashing from you? It makes a person hesitant to speak their mind.

You see, I don't get all that upset when folks disagree with me, I expect it. People disagree, people have opinions. I can listen to others opinions without accusing them of not rightly dividing the word and other such criticisms. I just present what I think is the truth.

You can pick apart my words if you want to, it is just more of the same ill behaviour. The fact is, I have presented many scriptures that contradict your teaching.

For instance, John 7:37-39.

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

You have taught that the Jews in early Acts had to repent of killing Jesus and be baptized to receive the Holy Ghost.

In these verses, first, it is clear that they apply to Jew and Gentile alike "any man". Second, verse 39 makes it clear that the determining factor in receiving the Holy Ghost is believeing. "they that believe on him".

Now "believe on him" is the gospel. Do I really need to post half a dozen verses that show that we are told to believe on Jesus for forgiveness of sins and everlasting life?

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

This last verse really throws a wrench into your teaching, because Paul reveals what John the Baptist was preaching, that "they should believe on him which should come after him, this is, on Christ Jesus". That is the gospel.

And this was Paul preaching to Gentiles, and was showing that John the Baptist preached the same gospel to the Jews as he taught to the Gentiles.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

These verses are about having forgiveness of sins and receiving everlasting life, not the restoration of the kingdom.

So, John the Baptist was preaching the gospel of receiving forgiveness of sins and everlasting life if you can accept it. And premio58 was correct about Mark 16:16. If you only read the first half of the verse, then yes, you would believe it necessary to be baptized to be saved. But when you read the whole verse, it is made clear that believeing is the factor in salvation, not baptism.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Jesus did not mention baptism whatsoever in John 7:38. Now, if baptism were necessary to both have remission of sins and receive the Holy Ghost for the Jews (remember, these verses are addressed to "any man"), then Jesus left out a very important detail. However, if believeing only is required to receive the Holy Ghost, then Jesus did not leave out anything.

There, I have presented solid scripture that contradicts your teachings. You can respond any way you wish.

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish

Again we see you attacking brother Ruckman on this forum.
I don't think Ruckman hates you. Just because someone has a problem with some of your rotten doctrine doesn't mean they hate you. Smarten up, Tony.

"My" doctrine is not "rotten" because it does away with your sacrament, and you can discuss it with Christ at the Judgment Seat brother. Your slavish devotion to a man will also be discussed. I'm yet to quote Cornelius Stam, Richard Jordan, Baker, Darby, you don't have the Scriptural knowledge to "rebutt" me in the water baptism thread, or any thread for that matter, so you turn us over to Dr. Ruckman, some Pharisee named Walker, and Harry Ironside who's not here to get Scripturally scourged by moi'. Would you like a thread in this forum where I'll discuss Ruckman's commentary on Genesis 9? Or do you agree with it? Smarten up? Pfft!(Your and Ruckman's condescending dismissal, see your reply to me in the water baptism thread)
And don't rebuke an elder when he's not done anything to you except maybe expose your guru.

Grace and peace Brother Parrish, if you understand what either mean.

Tony

[chette777]

Tbones,

I do not agree with Ruckman 100% that is for sure some of his snipes and scholarship has left a bad taste in many's life.

but please slow down a bit with BroParish, I and others. I am reminded of Romans 15:1, 2 and it just might be what is needed here in dealing with him.

Our reason to be on the forum is to edify one another.