[Biblestudent]

Originally Posted by chette777

I take the meat and spit our the bones. but if the meat is poison I spit it out too.

Amen, Bro. Chette!

[Brother Tim]

A better option is to cut the meat away from the bones before putting it in your mouth. And if the meat is poisoned, don't stick it in your mouth to begin with. I'll leave it to the scholars among us to see the allegory.

[Just_A_Thought]

Originally Posted by atlas

Guys,


There is never a need to hide what any man believes on any issue.

You may hate me for this, but we need to expose false doctrine no matter who teaches it.

You all need to listen to this. This way I will not be accused of that I am taking him out of context.

http://sites.google.com/site/ruckmantruth/


Peter Ruckman teaches that life starts when a baby breaths open air out side of the mothers womb. This is not found anywhere in the Bible other than in the creation of the first man Adam, and God breathed into Adam. This has nothing to do with anyone of the birth of any person in the history of the world.



The Bible dose not say God breathed open air into Adam.

Now some of the folks here will not like me posting this link. I believe in the truth. I always have. if this is what Dr. Ruckman believes this why hide it. Why not post it for all to see.


Not one man on earth today or in the last 6000 years was made the 1st man Adam. Therefore Gen. 2:7 has nothing to do with when a man's life begins today. Gen. 2:7 has to do with Adam becoming a living soul. God did not make me out of dirt, he made Adam out of dirt. God did not breath into me the breath of life, no any other person alive on this earth today.

Dr. Ruckman is 100% wrong on this issue. I do not care if you like me or hate me for this post. If you are an honest man or woman you'll understand why I made this post any why I oppose Dr. Ruckman on this issue 100%.

I made this post on the topic, " When does a person become a living soul? " I am posting this again for all to read. Dr. Ruckman says a baby becomes a living soul when he gets slapped on the but takes his 1st breath. He dose not seem to acknowledge the fact that no other person other than Adam was made the way Gen. 2:7 describes Adam being made and coming to life.




Abortion is murder 100% of the time.

I do not care what Planned Parenthood, the ACLU or Dr. Peter S. Ruckman says about this issue.


Atlas

Thanks for the sound bite. I would not have believed this until I heard it.

[pbiwolski]

Originally Posted by atlas

Peter Ruckman teaches that life starts when a baby breaths open air out side of the mothers womb.
Atlas

WRONG, atlas, no he does not.

You even quoted him...

"On the MP3 file at 29 seconds he says,
Quote:
I teach ta baby is not a living soul until it breaths

C'mon atlas, get it straight.

The trouble that you, and so many others, are having here is that you misquote Dr. Ruckman and then rail on him after doing so. (Go back and read you words and see if the quotes match.)

"He's 100% wrong (big and bold), wrong, wrong, wrong...blah, blah, blah"

No, atlas, you're 100% wrong! (but I won't put it in bold!)

What you suggest and what he said are two different things.

You said that he teaches that LIFE starts when a baby breathes...

No he does not.

Dogs and trees have LIFE, but they are NOT living souls.

The life of the flesh is in the blood...right??? Of course, but it does not say the life of the soul is in the blood (you understand there's a difference, don't you?).

Souls are a bodily shape (Rev. 6), but they are NOT the body. The unborn living baby in the womb is a body (flesh) with life in it, but it is not yet an eternal soul. It is not yet "self-sustaining," that is it is only alive (flesh) as its "host" (mother) is providing its life...

Dr. Ruckman teaches (and so do I) then that when someone aborts a living baby in the womb, they are not murdering a living soul. They are not sending the unborn baby to heaven, they are simply terminating the life that was in the flesh, life that when born would become a living soul. Never has he condoned or recommended abortion, but he teaches that it is not what everyone says it is.

You can run all kinds of scripture to say what you think refutes this, but you'll have trouble considering that the position is not saying the unborn baby is not living, as you falsely supposed.

[Brother Tim]

pbiwolski, aside from the fact that Dr. Ruckman's position was misquoted, you and he both appear to consider that abortion is not a moral crime because a living soul is not killed. Murder is taking a life, not taking a living soul. So I would say that even in your (incorrect) position that a baby becomes a living soul at birth, abortion, that is the taking of an innocent human life, is still murder.

While you are at it, since your take the counter-position to others here, could you answer my questions found in posts #12 and #13 found here: http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...5&postcount=12

[pbiwolski]

Your questions...

Some questions for those who see the soul entering the body at birth: (give references if possible)
1 ) When does the spirit get created? If at conception, why?

I would have to say at conception, although "created" would not be the right word. The scriptures are plenteous in connecting the spirit with our/God's breath and even wind. A few...

Job 27:3 All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;
Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
Job 34:14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;
Ezek. 37:1-14 (spirit likened to wind/breath of God)
John 3:6-8 (spirit likened to wind)

(The "why?" is answered in question 3.)

2 ) If the body is without a soul, is it alive? If no, then when is a baby alive?

Yes, it (the body/flesh) is absolutely alive.

3 ) Does the spirit separate from the soul at any point?

Of course!

Ecc. 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Gen. 49:33 And when Jacob had made an end of commanding his sons, he gathered up his feet into the bed, and yielded up the ghost (spirit), and was gathered unto his people (soul).
Gen. 50:1 And Joseph fell upon his father's face (body), and wept upon him, and kissed him.

The soul does not need the spirit - the body does. As long as the baby is in the mother, it does not need "the spirit" (it's own), it exists off of its mother. Should mom "give up the ghost," there goes the life of the unborn baby.

Job 34:14-15 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; All flesh shall perish together, and man (the body) shall turn again unto dust.

When the child is conceived, the child receives its own spirit (the breath of life) and becomes a living soul.

4 ) If the pre-born child has no soul, then if death occurs in the womb, does the child cease to exist?

Yes. Please forgive the crude wording, but it is no more that a pile of meat and tissue - flesh. If you allow emotions and humanism to affect your understanding, you'll want to make those harmless unborn babies living in "a better place" (which can nowhere be proven with scripture).
__________________

[atlas]

pbiwolski,

You are 100% wrong I did not misquote anyone one time.

The trouble that you, and so many others, are having here is that you misquote Dr. Ruckman and then rail on him after doing so. (Go back and read you words and see if the quotes match.)

Can you not read my post? It is on page one. How dare you missrepresent and say I misquote anyone, when the facts prove I do not.

Do you not understand I put the time the quote came from? Can you not read and hear at the same time? The quotes are a 100% perfect word for word match.

I did this and the quotes match word for word

Quote:

On the MP3 file at 29 seconds he says,

I teach the baby is not a living soul until it breaths

MP3 file 42 seconds


Quote:
and so I don't teach that abortion is murder like the brethren do


It starts back again on the MP3 file at 2:54


Quote:
abortion is murder, abortion is murder they show you pitchers. What are they trying to prove? They are trying to prove that the thing looks like a person it is a person. That is what Darwin taught. You've got to watch that business.

Every quote I made has the MP3 time beside the quote. Check it out. Do not lie and say I misquoted anyone I NEVER DID SO!!!!

GO READ THE POST I MADE AND LISTIN TO IT!!!!!!

You will see the qoutes are word for word.

Dr. Ruckman teaches (and so do I) then that when someone aborts a living baby in the womb, they are not murdering a living soul.

Well both of you have no scripture for this teaching.


Tell me who dose Gen 2:7 applies to other than Adam?



Atlas

[atlas]

Tim,

aside from the fact that Dr. Ruckman's position was misquoted,

There is no fact that Ruckman was misquoted.

This is where I quoted Ruckman.

On the MP3 file at 29 seconds he says,


Quote:
I teach ta baby is not a living soul until it breaths

MP3 file 42 seconds



Quote:
and so I don't teach that abortion is murder like the brethren do


It starts back again on the MP3 file at 2:54


Quote:
abortion is murder, abortion is murder they show you pitchers. What are they trying to prove? They are trying to prove that the thing looks like a person it is a person. That is what Darwin taught. You've got to watch that business.

You go listen to the MP3 READ the quote and tell me I misquoted him.

You need to get the facts. The facts are I quoted Ruckman word for word.


Atlas

[pbiwolski]

Originally Posted by pbiwolski

1 ) When does the spirit get created? If at conception, why?

I would have to say at conception,

Forrest,

I'm glad that you pointed out my error - it was a typo on my part (thinking ahead of what I wrote, I guess).

Let me be clear. Conception is not at all the word that I meant. For some reason my mind read conception and thought "birth."

This would definitely be a "contradiction" on my part and I apologize for not catching this. If anywhere else in those answers I make the same/similiar statement - then I made a mess of what I was trying to say.

Please substitute "at birth" to the answer to the first question.

Tim, I hope you notice this correction as well.

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by pbiwolski

[B] Please substitute "at birth" to the answer to the first question.

Thanks for the clarification.