[CKG]

Originally Posted by whirlwind

Speculating? We have Moses, Elijah, Zerubbable, Enoch, etc., that fit the bill as the witnesses. Previously, as Moses and Elijah were named on the mount of Transfiguration, I thought, as you, that they were the "two" witnesses. However, I now understand them to be TYPES for the witnesses. Those that overcome, as they did, will be with Jesus. The witnesses are those that witness for Him now and at the end of this age.




I agree.....allow the Scriptures to answer.....

Ruth 4:11 And all the People that were in the gate, and the elders, said, "We are witnesses......

Isaiah 43:10-12 Ye are My witnesses." saith the LORD, :"and My Servant Whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He: before Me there was no GOD formed, neither shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside Me there is no saviour. I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are My witnesses," saith the LORD, that I am GOD.

Isaiah 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even My witnesses. Is there a GOD beside Me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Acts 10:41-43 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with Him after He rose from the dead. And He commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is He Which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To Him give all the prophets witness, that through His name whosoever believeth in Him shall receive the remission of sins."

1 Thessalonians 2:10 Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe.

Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Note that Whirlwind asserts his superior knowledge to you.

“I thought, as you,………………… However, I now understand”.

He tells us to “allow the Scriptures to answer” then produces verses that have no relevance to the topic at hand.

He tells us to “allow the Scriptures to answer”, but denies the very words of Scripture.

Revelation 11
3. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5. And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6. These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7. And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

He then throws in smiley faces because he thinks its funny to mock the Word of God. I mentioned a while back about dealing with a young man who had gotten off into the "serpent seed" teaching. Whirlwind sounds just like him.

Originally Posted by CKG

Note that Whirlwind asserts his superior knowledge to you.

“I thought, as you,………………… However, I now understand”.

He tells us to “allow the Scriptures to answer” then produces verses that have no relevance to the topic at hand.

He tells us to “allow the Scriptures to answer”, but denies the very words of Scripture.

If I have done something to offend you then I apologize. However....I don't know what has caused you to be so defensive. I agreed to "let the Scriptures answer" as that was what the original poster suggested...and it is always the best policy. I did just that...with relevant verses if one is willing to see the relevance. Not all will.

Revelation 11
3. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Please notice that there is an AND between the olive trees and candlesticks. That alone tells us there are not two.

5. And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6. These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7. And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

He then throws in smiley faces because he thinks its funny to mock the Word of God. I mentioned a while back about dealing with a young man who had gotten off into the "serpent seed" teaching. Whirlwind sounds just like him.

If smiley faces "mock the Word of God" may I ask why they are available on a Christian website? If this is how you "deal" with a child of God I must wonder how you "love" your enemy.

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by CKG

Note that Whirlwind asserts his superior knowledge to you.

“I thought, as you,………………… However, I now understand”.

He tells us to “allow the Scriptures to answer” then produces verses that have no relevance to the topic at hand.

He tells us to “allow the Scriptures to answer”, but denies the very words of Scripture.

Revelation 11
3. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5. And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6. These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7. And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

He then throws in smiley faces because he thinks its funny to mock the Word of God. I mentioned a while back about dealing with a young man who had gotten off into the "serpent seed" teaching. Whirlwind sounds just like him.

I appreciate you comments brother. You can't read the Bible for people Craig, and one thing I've learned over the mists of time is that the Jews are not the only people who are stubborn and stiffnecked.

Here is what amazes me:

Re 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

What is the significance of the "and" I highlighted? No one seems to argue that Elijah is the first Witness:

1Ki 17:1 And Elijah the Tishbite, who was of the inhabitants of Gilead, said unto Ahab, As the LORD God of Israel liveth, before whom I stand, there shall not be dew nor rain these years, but according to my word.

I'm not going to post 5 chapters from Exodus, look in Rev. 11:6 "and" we see that we are given twice the evidence that Moses is the Second Witness yet most people bury their head in the sand, all that down there is the "Gestalt" method of "interpretation" that was taught by that crazy TV evangelist Gene Scott back in the 80s. "Consider all alternatives". Yeah, Charley Manson made good use of Revelation, let's ask him.

Grace and peace brother

Tony

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by whirlwind

Speculating? We have Moses, Elijah, Zerubbable, Enoch, etc., that fit the bill as the witnesses. Previously, as Moses and Elijah were named on the mount of Transfiguration, I thought, as you, that they were the "two" witnesses. However, I now understand them to be TYPES for the witnesses. Those that overcome, as they did, will be with Jesus. The witnesses are those that witness for Him now and at the end of this age.




I agree.....allow the Scriptures to answer.....

Ruth 4:11 And all the People that were in the gate, and the elders, said, "We are witnesses......

Isaiah 43:10-12 Ye are My witnesses." saith the LORD, :"and My Servant Whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He: before Me there was no GOD formed, neither shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside Me there is no saviour. I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are My witnesses," saith the LORD, that I am GOD.

Isaiah 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even My witnesses. Is there a GOD beside Me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Acts 10:41-43 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with Him after He rose from the dead. And He commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is He Which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To Him give all the prophets witness, that through His name whosoever believeth in Him shall receive the remission of sins."

1 Thessalonians 2:10 Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe.

Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

So you agree the witnesses are Moses and Elijah?

Grace and peace

Tony

Originally Posted by tonybones2112

So you agree the witnesses are Moses and Elijah?

Grace and peace

Tony

Yes. Moses represents the law and Elijah the prophets. Together, the law and Word are the two witnesses to the world. Who delivers His law and His Word? The many witnesses and they are the olive trees and the candlesticks. They are His elect...they are those of.....

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

[MightyAngel]

Originally Posted by johnlf

Scripture tells us about two witnesses who will prophesy 1260 days in Jerusalem. Who are these witnesses? Let’s begin with the main verse, Book of Revelation chapter 11, verses 3 through 12:

[B][I]11:3
And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Hello johnlf (and everyone else)

Just so you know this is my first time to AV1611 forums and my very first reply or post (for that matter). So I hope I did this right so that it would quote you. Let me start by saying that I kindly disagree with Moses being one of the two witnesses. In the past, I also believed Moses would be one of the two witnesses but not any longer. It's more likely that Elijah could be one of the two however that's not the reason I'm replying to this thread. Elijah is more likely because Malachi 4:5

-------KJV-------
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
-----------------

Personally I believe that the two witnesses will not be known for their witnessing of Jesus Christ although they will hold the testimony of Christ. My understanding tells me that the two witnesses are witnesses of the Mighty Angel of Revelation chapter 10 (who is still speaking).

Notice what is written in Revelation 11:1

-------KJV-------
And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
-----------------

Now, it tells us that "the angel stood" saying
Who stood? (Michael the Archangel / The mighty angel of Revelation 10)
When did he stand (during the last days as told in Daniel 12:1)

Keep in mind that through the 11th chapter of Revelation, the mighty angel from chapter 10 (known as Michael) is still speaking and saying:

-------KJV-------
And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
-----------------

So we can clearly see that this angel "stood" and gave power to "his" two witnesses. Two witnesses are all that's needed to confirm the presence of this angel who lives upon the "earth" with one foot and upon the "sea". The earth means he lives in the flesh (like the beast out of the earth) and the sea means that his message is to be carried by his "little book" upon all the earth (peoples, nations, multitudes and tongues). His little book will contain information and I believe the "seven thunders".

Now many confuse Michael with Jesus but Jesus took not upon him the nature of angels. Angels are simply strangers you should entertain by obeying the Word of God. This angel could only be mighty and "share in the glory of Christ" if he suffered for Christ's name sake and the only way that could have happened is if he came down from heaven and lived in the flesh so that he could be persecuted for his testimony to Christ.

The two witnesses will be revealed when the water is turned to blood, and the rain stops falling, and the plagues of old return and their testimony echos throughout the whole earth. Thus the earth dwellers rejoice when the two witnesses die.

We all know Ron Weinland is not one of the two witnesses as his prophecies have failed (meaning America was not nuked this year as he said it would be). So don't drink the flavor aid about Ron Weinland (he's clearly a false prophet and doesn't have the fruit of the Spirit).

Although what many people don't understand is that the two witnesses are witnesses of the angel who probably also wounds the beast out of the sea with the sword. All of these things happening from the 10th chapter through the beginning of the 13th chapter of the book of Revelation are key to keep in mind:

-------KJV-------
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
-----------------

Notice how "the seventh angel" sounds right after the Mighty Angel of Revelation continues speaking to John and not only tells him to rise and measure the temple but that he will give power to his two witnesses?

Notice how in Revelation 12:7, that Michael and his angels make war with the Dragon? This is key to understanding why:

"The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ;"

This is key because Michael just blew his trumpet (and he is indeed the 7th Mighty angel) who was witnessed by two people that were on the earth at the time he was. The seventh trumpet sounds after the two witnesses are finished tormenting them that dwell upon the earth. So if they two witnesses are tormenting earth dwellers... we can accurately assume that the testimony of the MightyAngel and the "seven thunders" is against God's own house. God's judgment falls upon his own house before it falls upon the people that are not of his household of faith in Christ Jesus the King of Kings.

Watch for the seven thunders, the mighty angel and the testimony of the two witnesses in order to understand more. Some things are not always meant to be understood or "unsealed" until the appropriate time of God's own choosing.

Thanks for bringing up this topic, may the Lord bless you with meekness and discernment and understanding peace in the last days (these are the last days).

[chette777]

You know many base the Idea that one of the two witnesses is Moses because he turned water into blood. But many failed to see that the magicians of Pharaoh also turned water into blood Exodus7:22.

So turning water not blood does not make Moses one of the witnesses for if it does then any one of the Egyptian Magicians qualify if that is the criteria for being one of the witnesses. As I pointed out in a previous post, Moses is one who stands before the Lord fulfilling the requirement of both Revelation and Ezekiel